Weld connections

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Does anyone know how to get a post from another board to this board? This maybe really simple but dammit Jim, I'm a weldor, not a computor expert. I have a post on Hobarts board and being the lazy sh*t that I am, Didn't want to spend an hour typing it over here
Reply:copy & pasteIF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:Tried. Don't work for me. I cant hardly drive these damn things anyways and I dont type for sh----------ow!
Reply:QuoTE FROM TEK--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Hey folks! I've got some questions for a weld inspector and also any engineers on board.I've got about 30 weld connects to do. Its a 6"x12"x5/16" tube column with a 6"x12"x.500tube header sitting on top. There are also headers(same mat) spaced up the cols. Cols are 30' tall. My ? is this- Due to the fact that the header tubes have a pretty good radius on the corners, when they sit on the cols I'm left with a  pretty good gap. I can drop a 3/8 round thru the hole.How do I weld that? Do I put back-ups in the top of the col? Do I use some kind of filler,like the aforementioned 3/8 round? I cut some small pcs from drops to check it all out and then went ahead and put 3/8x1 in the pretend col and welded a few passes Do I really need to bring the weld out flush?Because of the roll, it took two passes before I even hit the column!!!!!!!!!!!That would be like an inch of weld!! Because the col is 5/16, isn't that all that is required(5/16 fillet, that is). And on the sides of the cols., where the header hits, That vert. up is gonna give me nightmares  There are ten cols, ten horiz. welds,twenty verts with top and bottom of tube welds too.It won't be all at once as I'm only able to build and truckem so fast.The pics are of my pretend col. and one of the top headers. Anyone?........ Please?... with a cherry on top?" Hey Tek, Is this it?We need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:http://www.hobartwelders.com/mboard/...chmentid=15203http://www.hobartwelders.com/mboard/...chmentid=15204http://www.hobartwelders.com/mboard/...chmentid=15201I dont know if the pic links work.... but...here goes...Hmmm.. I took a look, and I'll have to think about it for a bit. I have something similar going right now, 'cept with 6"x6"x.500" wall sq. tube.Same radius, I suppose. Hmmm... good question.I wonder what an "educated" engineer would say? I can surely see them designing something like this, and thinking that sq. tube it actually sq.!We need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:Tek,  I see this as a good quesiton.  You might try the AWS forum as theres a ton of CWI's and CWE's on there  good luckIF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:As for the wire, I use alot of lincoln Outershield 71 elite.Great stuff!  You could use NR212, it is for heavier plate, but I dont think 211, or 212, passes strucual spec.Around here, I think NR232, or NR233 does, Both self shielding.Mornin'.... TXWe need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:morning BBI will doiuble check this,  but I swore that nr212 was listed in the fema codes...but I could be wrong...Ill see if I can find that though...but I thought it was lsisted for structural   brbIF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:Could be TX, but I do know 211 is primarly single pass for lighter plate. I use it quite a bit for dirtier, outside jobs. I dont use much 212.We need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:dang  BB,  ok im refernecing something differnt cause I dont remember where that supid fema handbook is I got..ok, so im referencing from the Lincoln innersheild electrodes welding guide from lincoln.  It is stating on page 14  prodfuct limitations.   Seismic applications include the NR211-MP up to 1/2" max.  For the smaller dias like.045" its 5/16" and NR212 up to 3/4".   However, then as you read further, same page it specifies app;icaiton information - seismic strucatural welding arplications.     This includes  NR 203 MP, NR203 nicke(1%), NR232, NR305, NR311Ni.  So I am not sure what is a seismic application thats not structural...I guess im just california law stupid but I dont know.    Now jumping to a differnt lincoln publication,  the innershield wires prduct guide.  It states that typical applications include structural fabriation where no seismic requiremetns exist.   This is NR211mp   Same goes for 212.   The NR230mp however , appears to be a comperable wire,  and follows structural seismic requirements.   So I would rather suspect that although the NR 212/211 meets structural, the assement that it doesnt meet the requirements of this application still stand on reason of the seismix requirements which I do beleive is a consideration.   I beleive that AWS D1.1 addresses this and probably fema would as well, but if not atleast the AWS D1.1 would, although I dont have that code book on me to verify this information.     Good call BB,  I pull back my first assumption based on the circumstances of job.   I also I double checked the specs on the outershield 71elite.  Looks like a good wire.  Does not specify the seismic requirements though, or lack of.  I would assume though that could be assesed by an engineer or by doing a double check on the code.IF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:I also just read in the fabricator's and erector's giude to welded steel construction that the NR211mp is fine for multipass withthe exception that the base material shall not exceed 1/2"  Thats max possible,  as I indicated in earlier post that the larger dias allowed a thicker base metal. The thinner dia allowed only for up to 5/16" which as you mentioned would indicate thin gage.   Of course 1/2" is in certain circles thin gauge too IF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:My understanding of the differnce between NR 211 and NR212 is merely the NR212 is an alternative to NR211 and allows the base metal thicness up to 3/4".   Ive heard some give good reviews on NR211 and poor on NR212.  Not sure what makes them differnt.  Ive actually never run self shielded.  Only gas shielded which I did enjoy.  If I ever get a feeder for my bobus I will be interested in trying the 211 and 212 to see which I likeIF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:What do you think about the fit-up prob? I'm sure we have all had to deal with the corner radius, but multiple 12" vert-up welds with this gap is a damn thing to do!We need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:I prefer 211,  but the single pass recomendation is a problem somtimes. where the 212 is mutipass.ooohhhh.... 69 posts!!!!! my favorite #!!!Last edited by BBchevy396; 01-12-2006 at 05:04 AM.We need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:I know I thoguht abut ths.   I find this to be a rather troubling decision.  however,  I believe as he stated, the proper method is to the standard size fillet.   Though I was thinking he stated  that the colomn was 5/16" and the header was 1/2".  I would think a 1/2" fillet would be rght. But I dont beleive you need it to fill the gap all the way up.  I beleive by doing that you will add too much weld metal, too much stress from the extra weld.  Also chances are you will be putting too much heat into that adding all those fill passes.  This can be limited ith stringers, but why?  I believe that you get your proper fillet size dont matter ifit doesnt fill out all the way.  My only question is I am more under the assumption you would make your fillet size based on the larger thickness?  whats your assesment on that BB?IF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:what dia wire do you run there on your NR211mp BB?IF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:69 get a screen shotIF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:Well, wouldn't the weld strength/fillet size be proportionate to the thinner material? I'd say 5/16". even though It wouldn't be filled completely.maybe a compromise... let's say 3/8". Still the problem of the gap. A filler piece is funtional, but not very astheticwhen welded on both sides, and i agree that mutipasses to cover will result in too much stress,probly ok. but it will look like a 1" weld! And also there is the vert-up thing, multiple joints. What a pain! I am building some structual stuff with 6x6x1/2" presently. I will play around with it in the morning.We need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:Usually .045, seeing how I use it primarily on thinner material.. 3/8" and less.Outershield.... .045 and .052. I typicly dont mess with much thicker than 1" plate... 1 1/2" sometimes.1".... quite a bit.As for the 69 screenshot, I've got those, but I gotta hid'em from the wife!!!We need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:Yeah see I was leaning on the 3/8" myself but I would say Id agree ith you onthat 5/16" or the thinner material rule.  Ive just never really,  well lets say in my experience eithe rwe had a WPS to follow whch took all guess owrk out, or a blueprint, or it wasnt a big enough deal lol. So i could fudge it one way or the other.  I personally dont think filling that gap thoug is incrediably a problem.  When I look at it,  now are we talking about filling a root gap, cause what I am understand is tht he wants to know if he needs to fill this thing up so that the whole piece of flush at the top.  I would say no it doesnt.  That all he needs to do is to put a sound well in there with no undercut, or coldlap.  It needs to be a 5/16" fillet and thats ok.  Again I think it is a question for an engineer, but I think the engineer would agree.  Thats my take on itIF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:Well, its gonna be a pertty wide root, but doable I suppose. Yep, lets see what his guys say. Goodnight TX,  I got to get to bed.... Lots to do tomarrow.We need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:69 screen shot   lol......ok,  if you get a chance, or so desire, give a larger diameter NR211-mp wire a try.  like  .068.  This will enable you to get your 1/2" multipass.  But than again the outshield is awesome.  Again thats what Ive used....but you cant do a lot outside with it if the wind blows    I like my stick for thatIF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:wow  you aint slept yet...well night  get some rest  see ya tommrow or someting  take careIF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:I took a look at the gap problem this morn, and unless Tek's tubing has more radius... doesn't look like a problem with the stuff I have, just a little wide at the root. but nothing I couldn't handle with ease. If it has more radius, it would open up the root exponentialy. Good luck Tek, let us know!We need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:Yes let us know how it goes tek I do want to know.....You could always just get a real big 7018 and just lay it in there IF it Catches...Let it BurnHere is what you do - If you have a torch or preferably a plasma  , torch out the two opposing sides of the supporting beam . Somewhat like with round tubing and a fishmouth connection. You should only have to take out aproximately a 1/4 inch . The top beam will be "cradled" inside the supporting beam and you should only have to weld what will be the wall thickness of your supporting beam. Youll have to take into account that you will be dropping the height a 1/4 "  if its a crucial measurment. I'm hoping you can imagine this ok.Johnny
Reply:Hey, THANKS BB. Bringing that over for me was way cool!  Well we flew one of the headers today. Lots of fun! Before it went up I put 3/8x1 back-ups flush with the top of the column. I had to bring these welds flush cuz this is a moment frame. Took about hour and a half each side. I used ESAB Coreshield 8. Bossman is going to get a roll of Hobart 21-B and some NR- 230 ( I think) Attached Images
Reply:Johnnyweld, we had talked about that but these four cols were already built before we recognized we had a problem. We might do that with the rest of them(6) Thanks for the suggestion.
Reply:And thank for all the kind thoughts! It musta worked cuz it was a good day!
Reply:great job tek...thanks for picsIF it Catches...Let it Burn