My Lincoln 140HD is constantly tripping the circuit breaker,...

admin

About every 15 to 20 seconds maybe I have to reset the breaker. The breaker is 20amp. I tried killing everything on that breaker except the mig itself and it still does it. Do I need a breaker with a higher amperage? 30amp?I know these 110v mig can only weld for so long before overheating. Does that have anything to do with tripping the breaking or does the machine stop on its own? I can only weld for like 20 seconds maybe. I have a welding project coming up and I dont want to have to constantly flip the breaker. I was thinking about going ahead a buying a TIG. Maybe the miller syncrowave 200 which goes for about 2000. It welds up to 1/4" steel and aluminum which is fine by me. That is as long as its not struggling to weld that thickness. Anyne know for sure? My little 110v mig says it can weld up 1/4 too but you all know how that goes. I really wanted to hold out until after this project to buy the TIG.Reason being is that Im having power issues in the garage. Right now my garage is powered off of a 50amp breaker from the house. The 50amp never trips. Its the 20amp in the garage that trips all the time. every 20or so seconds with the 110v mig. Or every so often if Im running say a saw, lights on, computer running with music to speakers,.... it trips. So annoying. The thing is the project im going to be working on is a huge cnc router. Im afraid that my power setup will soon not be good enough. I know that im going to need to install another breaker just for the cnc router because it will trip the one im using now all the time. But im afraid that very soon with enough stuff running that I will start tripping the 50amp for the garage in the house. Im turning my garage into a fab shop. SoI was thinking that I would get a quote to install a seperate 100 - 200 amp line to the garage. So I was thinking for now I would put that off along with the TIG until I finish this project. So yea.
Reply:The breaker is a safety device.  No way should you be swapping breakers until you know what the breaker feeds and what the size of the wires are.You might want to try and replace the breaker with a new one of the same amperage.  it just might be a bad breaker? I don't think it should be tripping a 20amp that quicklyLincoln SP-200
Reply:I agree I'd start by trying a new 20 amp breaker, before thinking about a larger one. The larger breaker will require larger wire most likely. If you are trying to weld at max power on that little 110v mig, it would not surprise me if it trips a weak breaker regularly, especially if it's on a long line or extension cord. It wasn't at all uncommon to trip the breaker with our old 110v mig when pushing it. 1/4" out of that little machine is really pushing the limits with FC wire, and everything has to be perfect to get good results. If you are trying to do 1/4" with gas, it wouldn't surprise me at all if you are doing it right to tip the breaker. 1/8" is max for that with gas.As far as the Syncro 200, 1/4" steel in stick or tig will be no problem. 1/4" alum tig is iffy. It's right at the max limits of that machine. I've done it with mine, but if I planned to do it regularly, I'd want a Syncro 250 or bigger to have more amps at the top for alum. 3/16" and less is fine. Also if you want to do 1/4" alum frequently, I'd suggest the water cooled torch, rather than the standard air cooled one. I can't go all that long on 1/4" alum before I have to stop and let the air cooled torch cool down. If I did more alum, the water cooled torch would be my first purchase..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:As Kid said above  , the breaker is a safety device.If a breaker is tripping'constantly', then something -may- be wrong somewhere.If the incoming voltage is on the low side (wiring runs are a bit too long either on your side or the power company's side of things or the power company hasn't upgraded their infrastructure to handle things properly voltage/amperage/power-wise), then the breaker may trip under load because some loads will draw more amps then expected if the incoming voltage is low.You may have a bad/iffy breaker.You may have some bad/iffy wiring connections somewhere in the circuit.You may have something else on that 20 amp circuit.  Those welders, especially when being pushed to or near their upper limits power-wise, really-really-really need to be on their very own circuit with NOTHING else on the circuit.  Even then, the machines can trip a dedicated 20 amp breaker and -may- require a dedicated 30 amp circuit.  NOTE:  That does NOT mean you just go and replace a circuit breaker with a 'bigger' circuit breaker.  If you don't KNOW what you are doing, then don't do it!If you just have that one 20 amp breaker (and circuit) feeding multiple things in the garage (lights, music, saw, anything else at all), then that may be the issue right there.  When the section in the manual says that the welder needs to be on its own circuit, they really do mean that.  Let's say you have the welder and some music and a few lights on in the garage at the same time, and it is all coming off of a single 20 amp circuit.  Just two 100 watt bulbs (or the equivalent electrical load from whatever other lighting arrangement you may have) is about 2 amps.  By itself, that amount is pretty small.  But now add in a small radio or so.  Maybe another amp there.  You're up to 3 amps.  Still not too much by itself.  Now add in the 140 welder.  The welder is "rated" at 90 amps at 19.5 volts at 20% duty cycle and will draw a full 20 amps at 120V at that rating.  If you are trying to use more than 90 amps welding amperage, the machine will draw MORE than 20 amps.  The manual says that to use the machine at 'max', the circuit has to be able to supply 25 amps at 120V (page A-2, footnote #2). So you have a machine drawing 25+ amps -AND- you have 3 amps from the other stuff in the garage.  Thats 28+ amps on a single 20 amp breaker.  So, yeah, the breaker trips.For the duty-cycle of the machines, they usually have an internal temperature-related trip device.  It should not just trip the circuit breaker for a duty-cycle related event.You may have several 'iffy' things all going the wrong way at the same time and thus the circuit breaker is tripping.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Thanks guys. I will reaplce the breaker and see if that works. Maybe I'll add another 20a breaker with just enough wire to one outlet just for the welder. I doubt I will go any further than this. I have to upgrade the power service to the garage anyways.About upgrading the power service to the garage,... you guys might know best. I want to open a business in my garage. A small fab shop. I plan on having around 3 - 4 CNC machines. 2 routers and maybe 1  or 2 plasma cutters. I will be TIG welding with some kind of 220v TIg too. I will have other various shop machinery too such as a large 220v compressor, bandsaw, lathe, etc. Lights, computers, music etc. How much power do you think I need for such a shop? Remember CNC's run on thier own so at the most I'll have 3 - 4 of them running at same time and maybe I'll be TIGing,... music blasting, compressor goes off yadda yadda. Im thinking maybe 300amp? You think thats to much? I dont know. Do I need a permit for this power upgrade? Or does the power company take care of it?About the syncrowave,... ill save for the 250 then. I need to be able to weld 1/4" aluminum. Thanks guys.
Reply:If you are honestly serious about running a decent sized shop in the garage, I can see 2 options. The 1st would be to upgrade the house to 400 amp service. Usually you get (2) 200 amp panels fed from the same meter. Then run what you need to the garage.A 2nd option is what my buddy did at his place. He simply had the electric company add a second meter for his shop and then ran a 200 amp panel from that. The one nice thing about this is that it's super easy to tell what power is used for the business. Any cost on meter #2 is "work". There's no guessing how much of the bill is "house" and how much is "shop".The best way I know to figure out loads is to sit down and list how many amps each machine will draw and add it up. One thing to keep in mind is that usually 3 phase power costs less than single phase and that you often can lower the amps because you can run higher voltages on some machines. 3 phase isn't available residentially in most locations. You may want to think about real shop space if you plan to have a need to a lot of amps for machines..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Just what I thought. I knew that I could either upgrade the house and run 2 sub panels or run a completely seperate service to the garage. I would really like to run a seperate service because as you said,... it's easier to keep track of power consumed by the garage. Easy. As for power useage,... Im trying not to cut myself short but dont want to go to overboard with it. I am thinking that maybe a 300amp service would work pretty good. 2 plasma cutters @ 220v ~50a each, TIG @ 220v ~50a, large compressor @ 220v ~20a, bandsaw @ 110/220 ~12/6a, lathe @ 220v ~ 14a,.... and then bunch of other various machines. I know know that not all of them will be running at same time. But,... im thinking maybe at the most the 2 plasmas, the TIG, and maybe one other machine running. That along with lights, computers etc. So,... 50 + 50 + 50 + 20 = 170amps. If I get a 200 amp service, that would be cutting it close. I think a 300amp service would be great.This is going to be my very first business. Im just trying this out. Going to be very much as trial and error learning experience. Im good with fabrication etc but dont know to much about business. So it will be slow to start. Once I get the hang of doing "business" and Im making steady cash,... then I will most certainly upgrade my location. ut for now my garage is it. My garage is pretty damn big. I will be here for a while just because its enough. I dont have 3-phase power I dont think. Would rather stick with the single phase for now and if I ever do move the busniess,... 3-phase here I come. Thanks for your help.
Reply:remember you dont need to supply power to ALL the machines at once.  if they are just on they don't draw as much as if you were welding with them . . . .  if there is only one of you you can generally only run ONE machine at a timeas far as 3 phase in a residence. good luck!fred-- fredLincoln 180C MIG
Reply:Note:Check zoning laws before trying to run a business out of a house's garage.  It may or may not be OK to do so.Also related, if the area zoning is Residential, I don't think the power company will install a second meter for the house's garage.  One address, one service is usually what residential gets AFAIK.  YMMV.And if you are going to have a machining business, there might not be any sense to 'limit' the incoming power to 240V single-phase power.  Think bigger.    Like 460V 3-phase or better.And also, for business/commercial electrical 'stuff', the owner is NOT permitted to do the wiring!  In most US areas, there is an exemption that the owner/occupant in a single family residential dwelling may do electrical work on the premises.  Still has to meet all the applicable rules and regulations and so forth.  For anything -other- than a single family owner/occupant, all electrical work, by Code, is required to be done by a licensed electrician.  And other rules start to apply for things other than a residence, like no NM wire (aka Romex) and conduit is required almost all over (flex or hard), etc, etc.Then there is the aspect of business license and insurance, etc, etc.It's not always so easy or straightforward to just say 'I'll run a business from my garage'.Last edited by MoonRise; 02-19-2010 at 11:49 AM.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:I'll second (or third, or whatever it is) the recommendation to check how strict your local area is on for-profit activity in a residential area.  I'm a writer, and I have to pay every year for a business license (and pay city business taxes) because I -- get this... type on a computer inside my house.  The city of Los Angeles has been very aggressive about this.  It could be that where you live, local authorities couldn't care less.  But it would be smart to find out.Last edited by Jack Olsen; 02-19-2010 at 01:08 PM.Jack OlsenMy garage website
Reply:Ok. Geeez. Well,... cant hurt to make some calls. First call I think will be to the power company. As said before I will limit myself to a 240v 300amp because it's a garage Its only a starting point. Once I am making enough money I will splurge on a bigger more appropriate facility more power etc. I will see if they will even install a second meter. If not then I'll have them upgrade my house to 400amp and just run 2 sub panels so atleast I have more than what I have now.As far as running a business out of the garage. I will have to research that. Might just be easier to keep it as a "profitting hobby" at first. But that would be kind of tricky though because I need an online store. I will be selling my services and products that I make.I have to find out what all the requirements are first I guess. If I can do the electrical myself I will. But if I have to hire a licensed electrician I guess I wont have a choice. I will have everything done to code of course. I wanted all the electrical on the outside of the wall anyways. Using conduit and all. As for the machines running all at once,... because I will have several CNC machines,... they could very well be running all at once. So I need to calc a total running load. I know starting and running a business is a pain. But this is what I really want so I have to try. This is going to piss me off though. no doubt. I like others just want to get S@#$ done. When codes/ laws/ fees/ inspectors get in my way I start fuming. Im not for doing stuff incorrectly or unsafe. But it can really get annoying. The time spent arranging for everything to get done,.... all the phone calls. So annoying. "When you want something done right and fast,.... do it yourself." im a firm believer. Also,... I hate being taken advantage off. Just like Jack's being taken advantage off. Thats pisses me off.
Reply:A lot of this can be caused just because of a pesky, nosy neighbor. I have at least one up the street thats been a PITA for years. Last spring I got a letter from the township that complaints had been made that I was "using my home for contractors storage and running a business" from my home in violation of the zoning ordinance. They immediately informed me that they had designated my house as being in "violation" and that I was being defined to as a "business" because of photos sent in. As a "business" they have the right to order an inspection of the property. If I chose to fight them, they would just get a court order and a warrant to force the inspection. (I was defined as a "business" by them so technically I can't refuse.)Part of the "evidence" against me was my welders and my gas bottles. Also my bench top mill and band saw. They don't consider them as "hobby" items. Also my pickup and utility body truck got classed as "commercial" by them even though they are way under the minimums required by the state as "commercial" and are legal under the BS restrictions of the township (Township lists "commercial" as over "3/4 ton" or lettered).The end result was a month of BS and having to move a bunch of stuff so the fire marshal and zoning inspectors could parade thru my house making stupid comments and snide remarks. In the end there really wasn't anything they could site me for, but it was still a royal PAIN and kept me from working while I jumped thru their hoops..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Wow! Thats what im talking about. That would seriously piss me off. Fortunately I have only one neighbor seeing that I live in the middle of no where. His house is about 200 - 300 feet away. I doubt with his old age he would hear anything going on inside the garage. Plus I live a bit off the road so its not that easy to sight my garage. Even if my neightbor gave me trouble,... he is very easily pleased. I'll just offer to plow his driveway for him seeing that he wont stop asking me to do so, LOL. I have a really nice setup up here. Worst case scenario would be that i would have to pay money. Because EVERYONE is looking for handouts.My business wouldnt be a bother to anyone. We'll see what happens.
Reply:Originally Posted by cvriv.charlesI hate being taken advantage off. Just like Jack's being taken advantage off. Thats pisses me off.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jack OlsenActually, I wouldn't say I'm getting taken advantage of at all.  I don't like paying a dime more in taxes than I need to, but I make a decent living at a job that doesn't happen to require me to have to set up a bricks and mortar operation.  I get the same city services that other businesses do.  I don't see any reason I shouldn't be pulling my own weight when it comes to contributing.  The point I wanted to make is that if you're going to try and fly under the radar and function as a for-profit business without paying the usual business taxes, then you should check with others who are currently doing it or have tried it to see if you're going to run into problems in your particular area.