what would you charge for this job

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hi got a job this afternoon to do for a bloke that I had forgot about  we talked about months ago and left it at that then he turned up today he is supplying all metal I'm just welding it together I haven't worked out if I will charge him per item or hour i had to make a jig up so he will get that charge at a hourly rate the rest I'm not sure have a look at the pics and tell me which way you think would be the better  given that each on takes less than 2mins to do from putting in the jig cleaning the metal and taking out of the jig and there is 83 of them to do jig I had to make up had to have it low as when there put together there only a few inch's of the roof of my shed  setup in the jig read to weld welded ready to come out no long after  here are the first 4
Reply:I just have to ask why he needs old track pads welded to a piece of pipe?                              MikeOl' Stonebreaker  "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:there going to be used with strainer post's on there farm the track part will be put in the ground  like in this rough drawing
Reply:Charge by the minute.  Figure out how much for each piece, like the  first two.  You will only get faster.  1 dollar a minute. plus charge for the jig.DavidThe whole job should only take  a few hours.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:so far I have put in 1 and a half hrs thats maded up of finding stuff in my steel pile to make the jig then making the jig and welding up the first 12 of them I was thinking a round 5 bucks each that will cover power and gas for the welder and other bits used  eg:sanding disc's and welding spray and beer  and still leave a little bit to put in my cunning kit and I think thats still cheap as I know these people well they would of been to all the full time welding shops in town first to get a price and then brought it to me because they know I only do these jobs after hours or on week ends so it will cost a bit less
Reply:83*5 = $415Looks good to me.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:yep thats what I reckon too David I will round it out to 450 and that will cover time spent setting up the jig as the steel used was just laying around anyway
Reply:Make it 500 even and call it a day!...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterMake it 500 even and call it a day!...zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by CoalsmokeThat's nuts on the pricing, it really doesn't reflect any real world figures considering the customer and the quality control / requirements of these pieces. I can understand that people are just trying to help out here, but I have to ask, why even suggest a price if you don't know. Charging him $500 for that is way too much. I charge a bit more than others in this area, but people get top quality work and service for it. If he came to my shop, he'd walk out of there everything said and done for roughly $160. Charging exorbitant rates is going to cost a this welder a customer and more importantly a good reputation and you can bet the last thing I would be doing is ripping off a local farmer.
Reply:Originally Posted by Joe HI agree with you mostly, but $160 sounds a bit low. That's a good 6-7 hours when it's all said and done, plus the sticks you burnt, plus the electricity. I try to be good to people too, but I don't like feeling like I screwed myself in the process.
Reply:You know, you're right now that I think about it. I wasn't thinking about all the parts being pre-cut. If all I had to do was weld it wouldn't take long at all. I do the odd small jobs here and there. I'm no business man about it though, my concience gets to me if I feel like I may have charged too much. Alot of the time if it's a small quick job, and the guy has callouses as thick as mine I don't charge a thing. More often than not I get guys who refuse to leave without me taking a $20 at least.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:Originally Posted by Joe HYou know, you're right now that I think about it. I wasn't thinking about all the parts being pre-cut. If all I had to do was weld it wouldn't take long at all. I do the odd small jobs here and there. I'm no business man about it though, my concience gets to me if I feel like I may have charged too much. Alot of the time if it's a small quick job, and the guy has callouses as thick as mine I don't charge a thing. More often than not I get guys who refuse to leave without me taking a $20 at least.
Reply:I don't know Coalsmoke...under 2 minutes a piece, including set up time and fitting ( mind you wouldn't be too concerned with being square and centered seeing how it doesn't matter ...they're being buried) not to mention physically moving 83 of them around...that's damn fast...want a job ?
Reply:Originally Posted by TinbasherI don't know Coalsmoke...under 2 minutes a piece, including set up time and fitting ( mind you wouldn't be too concerned with being square and centered seeing how it doesn't matter ...they're being buried) not to mention physically moving 83 of them around...that's damn fast...want a job ?
Reply:$160 dam that would be a good price!  He stated that he already has 1.5 hours into it and has 83 units to make at 2 min each (not all that long) so the total time would be 4.25 hours.  So you are only getting #$33.68 a hour?Not bad if you have no work but that is gross now take all your consumables, electricity and overhead out of that, oh don't forget Uncle Sam!  I would just charge him and hourly rate and be done with it. don't forget you are in business to make $$ not do other peoples work.Me!
Reply:some good points CoalsmokeBut I won't be doing it for a$160 thats for sure the final price I still haven't worked out yet but if will be fair if he wanted a cheap job he had petty of other welders toit take too I have done alot of jobs for this guy before so he knows he will get a good  job not a backyarder job and its being done out of hours so that cost more aswell
Reply:Originally Posted by Joe HYou know, you're right now that I think about it. I wasn't thinking about all the parts being pre-cut. If all I had to do was weld it wouldn't take long at all. I do the odd small jobs here and there. I'm no business man about it though, my concience gets to me if I feel like I may have charged too much. Alot of the time if it's a small quick job, and the guy has callouses as thick as mine I don't charge a thing. More often than not I get guys who refuse to leave without me taking a $20 at least.
Reply:Originally Posted by CoalsmokeCharging him $500 for that is way too much. I charge a bit more than others in this area, but people get top quality work and service for it. If he came to my shop, he'd walk out of there everything said and done for roughly $160.
Reply:Actually, our $ is even with their $ right now.Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:Are you serious man...don't you know that the Canadian dollar is at a 30 year high. It came within 3 1/100ths of par yesterday.You must spend all your time behind the helmet
Reply:Originally Posted by pinklilly11Joe, I think that is so kind of you.
Reply:As of yesterday, USD VS CAD; Attached ImagesAnything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:Originally Posted by wellothere going to be used with strainer post's on there farm the track part will be put in the ground  like in this rough drawing
Reply:Originally Posted by Joe HOh yeah, the nice guy routine always works magic on the ladies.  Not really kind of me, things usually have a way of coming back around.Originally Posted by TinbasherYou must spend all your time behind the helmet
Reply:Well crap I was not going to put my two cents in...ok well round these parts here der aint too many things these ole boys cant do. Now way in a chance in He11 would anybody in my area would pay 500$ for that....as kinda mentioned above most folks around here are ...Lets just say "Jacks of all trades" so thats why I think most welding jobs here are priced a bit lower.  But hey I know the R@D including jig and stuff it does add up.Just saying could'nt get away with that around here.Ok go ahead say that you can hear "Dueling Banjos"WAIT let me take the egg off my faceI over read the part where he mentions he has 83 to do.Yeah put it to emLast edited by lewray; 09-23-2007 at 12:33 AM. weld it like you own it
Reply:Originally Posted by olddadAre "strainer posts" for the wind or the animals ?
Reply:Originally Posted by wellosome good points CoalsmokeBut I won't be doing it for a$160 thats for sure the final price I still haven't worked out yet but if will be fair if he wanted a cheap job he had petty of other welders toit take too I have done alot of jobs for this guy before so he knows he will get a good  job not a backyarder job and its being done out of hours so that cost more aswell
Reply:no worrie's coalsmoke i sat down this morning and did a complete costing I think he will be ok with it It won't be a $500 bill that was just price suggested on here don't have to worry about the gun we have different gun laws here to over there  thanks for your input coalsmoke
Reply:Originally Posted by wellono worrie's coalsmoke i sat down this morning and did a complete costing I think he will be ok with it It won't be a $500 bill that was just price suggested on here don't have to worry about the gun we have different gun laws here to over there  thanks for your input coalsmoke
Reply:Just my opinion, but around $300 bucks.  I would say 5-6 hours.  There is no way in hell it can be done in 2.5hrs considering time spent building the jig, setting up, and handling material.  True it may not have to be perfect because it's going in the ground, but if it leaves my shop it will be as close as I can get it.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Originally Posted by Hammack_WeldingJust my opinion, but around $300 bucks.  I would say 5-6 hours.  There is no way in hell it can be done in 2.5hrs considering time spent building the jig, setting up, and handling material.  True it may not have to be perfect because it's going in the ground, but if it leaves my shop it will be as close as I can get it.
Reply:Originally Posted by Hammack_WeldingJust my opinion, but around $300 bucks.  I would say 5-6 hours.  There is no way in hell it can be done in 2.5hrs considering time spent building the jig, setting up, and handling material.  True it may not have to be perfect because it's going in the ground, but if it leaves my shop it will be as close as I can get it.
Reply:I charge the small jobs by the minute.  Not nitpicking, but If I drop what I am doing and do a Zip job, its worth my time and he gets great service.  I look at the clock when they walk in and again when it gets to "How much?"  If its a REAL 5 minute job, its five bucks.  If it drags into 20 minutes, then......I was making my hourly rate when I stopped what I was doing so....Tricycles and kitchen chairs are always free. I do give away jobs now and then for customer relations.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:That jig is a 20 minute jig, that's it. You can't run a business with the false belief that quality products take longer to produce. You get good and fast at something and that makes you competitive. Look at plasma, water-jet and laser machines. Get a job cutting 14ga stainless, you'll see that the laser machine kicks the pants off of the plasma and especially the water-jet, but does that make the laser cutter a poor choice, certainly not, its just more productive, and, it produces a better end result than the plasma. Maybe its just a futile attempt on my part here, but I hope people will start to see the hard and fast economics of running a welding/fabrication business. You make your money where you can, but you have to know which jobs to try and make the higher profit margins on, and this job is not one of them. That doesn't make it a poor job, it just means that you got to be careful with what you charge. Is any of this making sense or is it coming out sounding like Greek?Owner of Bushwacker Mobile WeldingPictures
Reply:Coal, some of what you say here has merit, but as somebody who's been in business ten times as long as you, I'd like to point a few things out.First, you gotta look at something like this like you were an employer.  If you had an employee doing this, he'd be involved in unloading the truck, stacking the material, setting up the jig close to the material, etc. etc.  And you also gotta figure potty breaks, coffee breaks, water breaks, whatever.  And you also need to remember it's pipe, unless you spend additional time making a rack, you'll have 83 pipes rolling halfway across the shop floor, if it's more than two steps each way to bring your material together you're not gonna get it done in two minutes each.  You'd have to pay your employee for every minute of this time, and would be justified in charging the customer for this time also.Then, once you get it done???  These things are too big to just drop on the floor and get the next one started, you need to get them out of the way.  But wait!!!  We've got a pile of pipe on one side, a pile of track plates on the other side???  Dam,,,  gotta carry these ten feet out, hopefully just to a pallet, move it outside with a forklift every 15 or 20 pieces.  Otherwise, if no forklift, carry each one outside as you go, more time.  So you finally finish (in much more time than two hours ) , the customer comes back, you're gonna tell him,,, "Everything's out back, get yourself loaded up and come back and write me a check"????  Ha, I guarantee you, that'll loose you more business than overcharging will.  I'd be out there loading him up, either by hand or with a forklift, but again, more time and more money, either way.For a simple job like this, and the relatively small quantities involved, the correct way to bid it is to figure how long it would take you to do one or two, with no special jigs, from the time the customer pulls up in his pickup with the material, you start the welder and turn on the gas, set the plates on the floor and hold the pipes plumb, he waits for you to finish, and leaves with them in the truck.  Any efficiencies you develop, with quantities this small, should go straight into your own pocket, with maybe a very small discount going to the customer.  Once we have quantities in the hundreds, or the thousands, then we can start talking some serious quantity discounts.Only way I'd be willing to do a job like this for $160 is if the customer himself, or his employee, came in a truck with all the material, and stayed for the duration, doing all the physical handling of the material, all I'd have to do was clamp and weld.  And this guy, whoever he is, better be able to move fast  Last edited by calweld; 09-24-2007 at 06:43 PM.
Reply:SO true.  The last job I did was 23 pieces about 40 lbs each.  The customer and I loaded them in the truck one at a time with gloves on because some were still Hot handling and storage all cost.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Cal, I appreciate what you're saying, you've been in this business a lot longer than I, but keep in mind if this was an employee doing the work, his time would be worth less than mine/hour, it would be a better margin for me, so long as he was decently efficient. Even if he took 3.5 hours to do it which I suspect someone less 'driven' would take, especially if they need coffee breaks each hour. There is no doubt that the time spent in other parts of the process needs to be factored in as well, but I wish I lived close to the gent doing this project so I could do a few to see for sure, I have very little doubt that they could be done in a timely matter. Let's look at a theoretical breakdown of time:Customer drops off pieces, I BS and have a cup of coffee with him, or not, either way, I don't charge for that, that's just the cost of doing business, chalk it up to advertising and customer relations if it has to fit somewhere.5minutes: turn on radio and start scratching noggin figuring out a good way to do these things, 15minutes fabbing up a simple jig,(x83) 1/2 minute to grab a piece from the pile sitting 1 pace behind you and set it in jig and pick up mig gun,(x83) 1/2 minute of bead time,(x83) 1/2 minute to pick up piece, toss, flip, or lay it down on pile to your other side about 1 pace away,5 minutes for water/pee break half way through, 5 minutes to scratch myself, call the customer, pet the dog, and think about what I'll cook for dinnercustomer comes and we gab, I give a hand loading (always), once again cost of business. This, works out to $160 by my books. Yes, maybe its going harder than most want to go, and admittedly if its not a cooking hot day, and I've got other stuff on my plate waiting to be done, I'm a b@lls to the wall kind of guy, so I'll admit that its at the optimistic end of the time scale, but, IMHO, its fully feasible without any super human feat. Now, if I like the customer, he was a neighbor or general good guy in the community, he'd walk out the door with a $160 bill, but, other people, I might round it up to 200-220 and put some extra profit in my pockets, depending on who it is, when they want it done by, and how much they whine when I have to be near themI suppose at the end of all this, I'm not trying to convince anyone that this is what they need to charge, the price will depend, as has been covered in our posts, on numerous things. Instead the real point of this has been to show that simply pulling numbers out of one's bum is not a good way to figure out the end cost for a job, or in this case, recommend the end cost of the job. The price should be close to fair. Dead fair in my books is around 160, if I'm real busy and this type of job pulls me away from other work, then "fair" gets more expensive, and likewise, if I'm doing this as a hobby business, fair may become more lenient. I'm sure Wello will do what he thinks best, he doesn't seem like a smart guy to me, and this discussion has been an interesting one regardless of the outcome.Owner of Bushwacker Mobile WeldingPictures
Reply:he doesn't seem like a smart guy to methanks mate I think the world of you too
Reply:just for the record i haven't pull a price out of my arse the final price is worked out on workshop consumables used time spent welding handling loading and unloading all done by hand each is handled 4 times I wish each item was only one pace away but room doesn't allow that it seems the cost of welding and consumables is alot less in Canada than Australia thats cool I thank all for there comments and opinions its been interesting
Reply:I work my pricing slightly different than most people. I figure a base hourly rate of $50/hour, then add materials, common materials that I have around the shop (wire, gas, grinding wheels) are priced at "retail" even though I pay less than retail for them, if it's something I have to go get specificly for the job (steel, bolts, casters) I charge retail plus 10% and add my gas and time spent while out getting the materials. For a job like that, I'd base my time off of how long the first 10 took to make. So at 2 minutes apeice, it's $138 in labor, so make that $140 for the peices, and anouther $75 for the initial set-up.Then add about $0.75/per peice for consumables which is another $65, and add the materials for the jig (which he may want to keep if you charge him for it, but what are you going to do with it anyway?) so maybe $20 there. That puts you at $301, before electricity, I have no idea what you pay for electricity down there in Oz., but I'd add another $50 for it plus the wear and tear on your machine, gloves, mask, welding table ect. which puts you at $350 as a baseline. That is the minimum price at which I'd consider doing the job, anything lower than that and I wouldn't touch it, but as a starting point I'd ask an even $500, if they balk, act like it's killing you to do it, but lower to $450, which still gives you a nice profit and a "fudge factor" incase it takes longer than you thought or a few get messed up and you have to buy steel to replace them. I have an advantage when negotiating prices in that I don't do it for a living (at least welding isn't my main source of income) so if I have to walk away from a job because it won't pay me enough, I don't have to worry about paying the bills. When I do take a job, it's because it will either be an interesting challenge, or I will make plenty of money, and I like money, it helps me buy more welders. Every once in a while I get a gig that blows away the whole pricing plan. A while back a contractor came to me looking to have a bracket welded up to suport a beam, the engineirs had finished designing it late on Saturday and it had to be installed by early Monday, all the local welding shops had 2 week to 3 month back-logs of work, and I didn't really want to do it, but happily obliged when the contractor offered me $1200 to do it (about 4 hours work), provided it passed inspection. It passed ad the check cleared, apearently if the bracket had gone in Tuesday instead of Mondey it would have cost the home-owners an extra $2000 and would keep costing a boatload for every day it was delayed, so $1200 was a bargain for them. Just play it by ear, and go with a price that you feel is right, for you and the customer.Last edited by maxyedor; 09-25-2007 at 05:31 AM.
Reply:just work it out how long ya took, what ya used  , do the maths give him the bill and itll be sweet . thats how i work
Reply:This has been an interesting thread. Myself, I wouldn't touch it for less than $300 but might go as high as $500. Something low bidders always leave out is the amortization of their equipment. It's tough to work around guys that price with their arse and not their head. But there's always a little comfort knowing they won't be around for the long haul. They'll either belly up or change directions after they've dug themselves into a hole (re-thought their situation). There will always be low-ballers to be put up with. It basically will always come down to the real and full expense of the job plus what you're time is worth. Some folks just don't put much value in themselves and that speaks volumns about them. Wello, you stated that this "family" has used your services before so it is logical to think that they know what they'll get in the end.   BTW, you seem to me to be fairly normal...maybe that puts me in the boat with you...LOLAnything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:The actual arc time per piece for the job isn't all that much, but you still have to pick up each piece of pipe and plate, clean them at least a little bit where you want to weld them (wire brush or grinder, then a quick spritz of cleaning solvent), line them up at least somewhat, then weld them, then move them out of the way.  Repeat until job is all done.Moving fast at two minutes total per piece makes 166 minutes with no breaks or downtime at all.  That's darn close to 3 hours.  Your pricing structure can be based on labor plus materials plus overhead/taxes/depreciation/insurance/etc, or your hourly rate can bundle all the costs into one hourly rate.If you price it at 5 dollars per piece, you're at $415.  I think that is a little high.If you price it at an all-inclusive shop rate of $50/hr (for a business that would mean you are closer to $25/hr in your pocket after all the business costs like taxes, insurance, rent, equipment amortization, incidental materials like solvent/wire/gas/disks/etc are accounted for) and 3 hours work, you're at $150.  I think that is a little low.  I think the total time on the job will be more like 4-5 hours, moving at a pretty good pace.  It's the multiple picking-up and moving all that material that's going to add up to a good chunk of time.Like calweld mentioned, 83 pieces of pipe rolling around on the shop floor is going to be awkward to deal with.  Once the base plate is welded on, they won't roll around any more.  They'll still be awkward to deal with, they just won't be rolling around much.Hire two helpers at $20 each for the job ($10/hr for unskilled minor grunt work), to 'load' and 'unload', and crank the job out in about 2 hours.  At $50/hr inclusive rate for you, you then are at $140 for the job.
Reply:After this has been kicked around so much, All I want to know is how long it actually took the original poster to do the job.It would have been in and out of my shop by now or not at all.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I would do them for 5 bucks each. If all you have to do is set it in the jig and weld. There is lots of work like that out there...BobBob WrightSalem, Ohio  Birthplace of the Silver & Deming Drillhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbend10k/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sawking/1999 Miller MM185 w/ Miller 185 Spoolmate spoolgun
Reply:Originally Posted by David RAfter this has been kicked around so much, All I want to know is how long it actually took the original poster to do the job.It would have been in and out of my shop by now or not at all.David
Reply:Originally Posted by wellohe doesn't seem like a smart guy to methanks mate I think the world of you too
Reply:Originally Posted by CoalsmokeSh!t, sorry Wello, my brain and fingers were not connected, I sure thought I wrote that "he seems like a smart guy to me" I don't know how "doesn't" got in there Anyways, that was definitely not my intent, I honestly don't know how "doesn't" got in there, I can't edit my own stuff, and hopefully other people can't edit my stuff, which means it must have been a brain malfunction.???