Considering dropping welding class - advice?

admin

Hey guys - about a month ago I enrolled in a oxy welding class on the advice of the instructor.  I'm taking the class as a hobbyist, to allow me to be able to weld on some of the motorcycle projects I work on.  To put it mildly, the class has been a huge dissapointment.  The entire operation is horribly disorganized, for starters.  The worst part, for me, is that there is little to no actual instruction.  I go once a week, for 6 hours, and it's all lab - and that alone has helped me immensely, and I have learned quite a bit.  However, the instructor can be very hard to find as it seems he is just spread too thin - getting a question answered can take an hour, and even then it's usually something along the lines of "that's no good - do it again".  The majority of the students are in a certification program, so they are there 4 nights a week, doing 4 different processes.  One of the major problems as I see it though, is that all processes are working each night, so one guy is doing Oxy, one MIG, one TIG, one maybe an advanced pipe class, etc, each in their seperate booth.  For the "home use" student several of us feel like we are getting rapidly left behind since we are there only one night a week.  I'm frustrated to the point that I feel like I could have gotten the same experience with a bunch of  mild steel scrap and time in my garage, and the textbook - which we were told to read and to the bookwork (I did.)  Then the instructor says "forget about the book"  I'm at the point were I can drop and save $300, or I can continue down this path.  I'm not one who normally would quit something, but this just seems like a waste of money.The other issue is the Oxy class itself - I think I just should have taken Mig and gotten down to work in my garage.  I'm not looking to build motorcycle frames or anything like that, just add tabs and mounts here and there.What do you guys think?  Stick it out, or spend my money getting the cheap Mig unit I already have set up with sheilding gas and a regulator and going to work in my garage?
Reply:Stick it out.The money you save alone on practice material and filler is worth it.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:my class is starting to feel a bit like that. We keep laying beads on scrap, and I feel like I can't get any better.But I know that even though I feel that way, I have a huge amount of improvement left in me, and I know that we are being repetitive for a reason.I just have to remind myself that practice makes perfect, and by the end of the class I'll be able to walk up to just about any SMAW station and be able to put down a bead worth using (within reason).
Reply:That is the biggest reason of why I never signed up for community college classes.  Worried about wasting time and money.  I'm in the same boat and picked up MIG pretty quickly.  I started with a Hobart handler 110V a few years ago and recently moved up to a 220V Miller 180.  For hobby welding, it's pretty easy to get the hang of.  If I planned on doing it as a career, I would definitely be certified.  MIG (for the home hobby stuff) is pretty self explanitory and you will pick it up with just some seat time welding on scrap.
Reply:Is there some small, old fashioned welding shop in town, or perhaps one of the smaller, independent  welding supply stores there? If so, stop by and talk to the owners or workers and see if you can work out some better kind of a situation. I'd look for something else before quitting, although I think that the money you paid would go a long way towards buying a lot of your own gas so a good book plus practice would eventually get you there....Last edited by Oldiron2; 10-13-2010 at 06:20 PM.Reason: Changed a word!
Reply:So, can you o/a weld?  Can you find a neutral flame?  Can you adjust pressures for each tip?  If yes, then save the money, put it down on a 220v or dual voltage mig. If you can do at least those thing, then you can minimize frustration while you practice o/a on your own.If it is so disorganized, then you could "stick it out" go to mig lab instead.
Reply:I been through welding school, 30 hrs a week for like 9 months (and only did o/a welding for like 4 hrs I dont think they wanna teach it anymore  ) The instructor was real good , but was never around..Too busy..  I got a small tig welder set up now to keep practising..Like said above the argon bottle emptys fast and its hard to weld alot when its your bottle that you have to worry about..Plus good scrap is hard to find...Consumables...I agree the 300 is worth that at least...Maybe ask if you can come in an extra night or two?
Reply:I've taken a few classes over the years. On one when I walked in, I knew it wasn't worth my time and didn't take it. All the others, even the ones that were a bit disorganized were well worth at leats the money spent. I have noticed since the ecconomy tanked, classes have been full. Lots of people looking to get work, or trying to make more than they do now.A few hints that may help. Don't be scared to jump in and grab the instructor when you need to. Don't wait for him to make his rounds, be standing outside the booth with your coupons when he's done with that guy. Ask specific questions. "Am I running too hot? Did I go to slow/fast? I keep having this issue here, how do I stop/ fix that?" Not just "Hows this?" Don't be the guy who's always BSing. If you're not waiting to pounce on the instructor, be in the booth welding. When you go to see the instructor, have 1/2 a dozen or so attempts to show. (keep tract of what you did on each one and what you did differnt and use them as examples) " When I slowed down on this one I had this happen, but on this one when I ran faster, this happened? Which one is closer to what I want?" Also don't be afraid to ask questions of others as well. Welding has a bunch of "AH HA!" moments. Sometimes the guy next to you may have just got it, and can explain it to you.  Pay attention to what others do right as well. "Hey let me see that one you just did. What was he looking for when he said that ones good?" I've also found that showing an interest plays a big part. In my 1st class, I'd practice at home and bring in a pile of practice pieces before class and ask the instructor what he thought of them and where I should concentrate that night. I also found by doing this he'd offer to look them over on nights he had other classes before class, and sometimes told me to jump in an empty booth and run a few even though I wasn't in that class.Granted some classes are not worth the time and expense, but hopefully those are rare. It's much easier to learn with someone to critique you as you weld, than DIY. I did DIY for mig at 1st, and after taking my 1st class  to learn stick, I swore I'd never go that route to start again..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Awesome tips DSW. I'm going to use some of your suggestions tomorrow.
Reply:What ever you decide to do, stick around on this forum. You will learn a ton!!Ya gotta spend money to make money!
Reply:There's a few different points of view here.  I suppose the caliber of the school has something to do with one's experience. I feel fortunate to have gotten what I did through the local courses that I've had. I wanted to learn, and I think I have. I studied oxyfuel in class last spring, but I wish I had taken it earlier! Practice, and the right instruction will aid you most, but only in so much as you have the desire to progress. Pick good, pertinent, questions to ask when you get the instructor one on one, don't bragg about how good you've become, but ask where you can improve. If you decide to drop, so be it. It's your education.......City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2Is there some small, old fashioned welding shop in town, or perhaps one of the smaller, independent  welding supply stores there? If so, stop by and talk to the owners or workers and see if you can work out some better kind of a situation. I'd look for something else before quitting, although I think that the money you paid would go a long way towards buying a lot of your own gas so a good book plus practice would eventually get you there....
Reply:Good advice from all.I didn't wanna take it this far, but there are some rather large issues with the class, or perhaps the instructor.  A quick breakdown:The class I am in meets once a week for 6 hours.The first class was spent in a classroom with the instructor basically doing 1 hour of a "get to know ya" sort of thing, he then went on to trash the college's higher ups for not listening to him for the next 4 hours.  Seriously.  THe entire first day was wasted in that classroom.Second week, he called in sick.  Sub had no clue.  Told us to go to the lab... we didn't even know where it was.  Everyone left but me, after I convinced the sub to help me setup a torch.  I spent the next 4 hours just tryig to get some beads.  Had waaaay too little heat, too small of a tip, and didn't feed nearly enough rod into it.  But, it gave me some hands-on.3rd week, instructor comes into the clas 15 minutes after start time and angrily asks us why we're not in the lab.  Tells us we're there from the start, yet he's never even shown us our booths, safety procedures, where to get coupons, etc, etc.  We have 25 'tests' of different welds to do.  He says to start those (with no instruction).  I do and keep at it not really knowing if I'm doing it right or not.  After doing the same #1 weld over and over for 3 hours he comes by and says it's good, looks at me half confused/half irritated and asks why I haven't moved on.... I had no idea we were supposed to just self-advance!   Not to mention the fact he hadn't even explained the next weld.Week 4, I've finally got a list of the welds and have been reading the textbook like crazy.  Figure it's up to me to make the most of the lab time and teach myself (which is total bull****, but lemonade from lemons, I guess)  I get to the 18ga butt weld with 3/16 gap and I'm struggling big time.  Either no penetration, or burn through. I finally track him down asnd ask him about it, and his answer is "Terrible.  Do it again."  I explain I don't know what I'm doing wrong, he says "that's not my problem".  Seriously, he said that.  At that point, I was getting ready to leave, but I pressed him.    Someting along the lines of "It's not??  I thought you were the instructor??"   He agrees to come look at my process and help me in a couple seconds.  Says to set up the coupons and wait for him.  10 minutes later, nothing.  20 minutes, nothing.  I start trying to do it on my own again, no luck.  I finally track him down 45 minutes later outside bull****ting with a former student about his motorcycle.  He comes over (I'm staying late at this point) and gives me some good tips about a different flame.   I ask him how come it's so much different than how the textbook says to adjust the proper flame, and he tells me "forget about the book - this is real world".  This is after he told us to make sure we did all the chapter reading and the tests at the end, which I did.  So..... tomorrow is week 5, and I'm scrambling to make work arrangements so I can be there, and I'm starting to wonder why.  The kicker is, the only reason I'm even taking O/A is for the background skills it gives you for TIG, which is what I wanted to take next semester.  I know for sure I will not be back with this instructor, or maybe not back at all.Seriously, I hate to be a whiner and I never quit things, but this feels like a collosal waste of money and time.  I could just go get some sheilding gas for my crummy MIG and at least be doing the same thing in my own shop, on my own schedule.  Am I missing the boat here?Last edited by Wisco; 10-14-2010 at 12:17 AM.
Reply:That description is appalling.  If that be the case, get your money back and report back to Welding Web U for proper training. Un-believable. What is the guys name and what school?City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Wow, that is absolute insanity. I'm so sorry that's how it is. Are there any other schools around? Our vocational highschool does adult ed classes, and they are set up like the one you describe... but the community college welding course is fan-freakin-tastic (and about the same price). Originally Posted by 7A749Sounds like it's time to make a trip to the Board of Education Director's office & then to the local media to voice valid concerns about this school's process of teaching. Nothing like bad press to light a fire under a few fannies.
Reply:DSW had some really good tips - that we apply in my Oxy/Acet course now in progress.  However, you instructor is The Major Problem!  He is not doing his job and all DSW suggestions aare based on dealing with a 'reasonable' instructor. Originally Posted by WiscoAm I missing the boat here?
Reply:Students often fail to realize that they are the customer.  If you purchased a bad product the vendor would hear about it from you.  When you take a course find out what you are buying and make sure you get what you were sold.  If you were buying a bag of groceries and the checkout person started in on you when you mentioned that the carrots were kinda limp would you take it?   Also Welding is a HAND SKILL!  That means hours of mind numbing practice.  You don't learn to play a piano in an afternoon.  Good instruction will reduce those hours significantly.
Reply:i took an intro to welding course, but had a decent instructor. he was as you described spread thin..but managed to make the rounds , watch what you were doing and then show you how he did it. i found that ten minutes of his attention and three hours of me practicing what he showed was a good deal... if you arent getting that good ten minutes, walk away and learn on your own. send us fotos, we can help.$300 will buy a lot of gas.
Reply:First of all as part of the teaching game, let me apologize for the negative experience you are having.In setting up our program, I have had the opportunity to visit the majority of the schools in our state.  I saw the good and bad at all levels, both high school and adult.  Programs can vary greatly and it all depends on the leadership of the program.  There are many constraints facing the schools and the instructors and it is mostly about money and community/industry support and we all know there is not a lot available.  Most programs were operating pretty close to the bone and have had additional cuts in the past few years.I won't discredit other programs or instructors, you're already very aware of the shortcomings you are facing.  The only advice I can give is to look for a program with professional credentials (it doesn't guarantee anything, but at least they have done the work!).  AWS S.E.N.S.E. programs with AWS certified CWI and or CWE instructors.A clean and organized shop with safety as a primary concern, that focuses on basic welding skills with enthusiastic instructors is always a great sign.Troubles with administration?  That is NOT a student concern and a weak excuse for poor performance.  "If there is trouble in the home (or at work), look to yourself first".  Way too many victims and "if-onlys" out there. (enough soap box!)I have seen way too many "hobby" shops in my time, places where instructor (and sometimes friends) have access to equipment and space (and I suspect in more than one case- materials).  Any poor student is strictly a distant secondary concern.It is extremely difficult to find good instructors, much less great ones.  The industry doesn't pay that well (relatively speaking) and unfortunately a great welder does not always make a good instructor.  Teaching is proactive not passive, I've interviewed a few great welders with not-so-great communication skills and no sense of teaching.  There is just a little more to it then watch and learn.  Sometimes (most times?) evening instructors are unsupervised adjunct (part-time) faculty or full-time instructors pressured into teaching nights, the problems are obvious......Good luck and once again I am sorry about your negative experience.
Reply:Some of those 4 night students may be a better resource than the instructor, you might be able to team up with one of the other students who has got a grasp on a particular skill. The O/A welding is going away to the MIG work but if you can pick up some good brazing skills as well then that is a whole different art in it's own and still a good demand for it. You won't see many guys doing auto body with a torch tip these days. I don't know your financial situation but it the money really won't break you I would try to stick it out but take the approach you may have to go a lot of this alone, their gas and consumable is still a good value. Use this sight and other Web combined with the other resources and suggestions above and press on. Any specific questions you have at this time? guys here are very well versed and eager to help. Good Luck."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400