Vertical Stick Welding

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I know this has been covered here and there, but could someone give me some pointers on doing vertical ups?4 inch wide pieces of 1/2 and 5/8 plate to be welded to 4 inch schedule 40 pipe, for gate hinges.Miller Bobcat 2506010 5P, 5P+, 6011, in 3/32, 1/8, 5/32 sizes on hand.Just some info on rod angles, amperage, whip patterns, and such.Thank you, I appreciate the knowledge.
Reply:Although I'm not a professional weldor, I'll put my 2 cents in:I would keep the rod pointed up about 10 degrees, and use a little side to side motion.   Pay special attention to keeping a steady, short arc.....and move right up the joint nice & easy.I have to always remind myself to WATCH THE PUDDLE, not the fire, and going vertical-up, the puddle will be under where you're welding.   For 1/8" rod, I'd try 100 amps, but, of course, if you use 5/32", you'll stoke it up a little more.  Use A.C. for 6011, otherwise, D.C.+ for the others.I'll be the LAST one to let you down !
Reply:P.S. . . . . .For the size metal you are playing with,  5/32" rods would work good......you're going to be in the 130 - 140 amp neighborhood.I'll be the LAST one to let you down !
Reply:There is no side to side with those rods, pretty much stringers, whip and pause.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Here is a 6010 shot, is not up but I can make up look the same way.  I should have cleaned it after but maybe you can get some idea.  It was on a rusty truck bed over a cracked weld. Attached Images
Reply:Thanks yall. I have no problem running flat and vertical down welds with the 6010, I just need a few pointers to get me practicing in the right direction.
Reply:A little side to side wont hurt,its almost like whip and pause dont u think?
Reply:You may be right and I may be wrong, but where is it written at? I think if a guy is learning he should try to learn the right way and after the fact if he wants to make some changes or make it up as he goes along ok. He can run flat and down but not up.  I dont even have to see to know that he doesnt have basic technique down to have any kind of control over what the electrode does other than what gravity is doing.  His welds may be "welded" but it is only by chance mostly and if he doesnt have an idea how to run the rod even the flat and downhand can be haphazard at best.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Be sure to watch how much side to side you use.  If you pull away from the side too fast, you leave undercut. In an x-ray that shows up as ghosting even after you've run back over it with another pass.Common sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls wisdom.
Reply:I'm with Sberry, I run a stringer and whip/flip to let the puddle freeze slightly or with a very short arc and no whip. Either way, you have to watch the puddle and not the fire.  It's hard to explain in writing, but one you see it, you will see that uphill is not so bad after all.  I have found that most people, when learning uphill, watch the fire and not the puddle. To some extent the rod will odscure the puddle, but you have to learn to position youself where you can see it.  If you can't see the puddle, by the time you see a "drip" forming it's to late to recover.Have you thought about going to a local welding shop and getting a first hand look at it?  I would think that unless the shop is totally swamped, that they would be happy to help.
Reply:I don't thinks it writen anywhere sberry but i've been welding alot of years and i don't have trouible with it. As for Bolt i dont know what his limits are so maybe i shouldn't have made that remark!!!
Reply:sberry...I don't disagree with you.   Whipping is a very acceptable techinque....and I use it a lot !  Welding vertical-up was the hardest for me to master, and get good welds.   My welds looked like crap until someone actually showed me, hands-on, how to do it.When I said "a little side to side"....I mean VERY little, maybe a rod width.   I've been taught that whipping is useful for getting more penetration....(gouge & fill)....and my experience is that you don't have a great deal of trouble with penetration when going vertical-up....seems to me like it digs right in real good !I'll be the LAST one to let you down !
Reply:get yourself some scrap and play ....vert. up is alittle different ...short arc and don't be in big hurry....if you start to get bags in the weld cut back on voltage alittle or amps as how what ever machine your usein...and as for different style....yeah there are ...knew a guy that could not weld vert.up unless he was hanging upside down himself ...then it was no problem for him
Reply:In a welding class it might be different but when I teach someone one on one I use 6010 and start right out on vert up.  I dont think a lot is gained from just a box of rod and some scrap unless its geting over the fear of fire and sparks.  If they can weld up they can weld flat too and it makes it bvious right off the bat what makes control with whip rods. I see a lot of probs going to out of position and is often thought there is something basically different to the operation in different positions,, or different machine settings.  Very rarely do I make a machine setting change for position, more due to thickness than position and not more than 5 to 10 amps.  I see it all the time,, a guy has the machine down to 70 A to try vert when he was at 120 for flat.  My Dad used to do that, just because he was never shown what made this electrode operate the way it does.  I think its damm near impossible to teach it here and could take forever but with some hands on instruction I have seen guys catch on in a few minutes.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:I'll be honest with ya' 'berry...vertical up with 6010 is a little easier for me if I cut the amps down a tad I'll be the LAST one to let you down !
Reply:I'd practice with 1/8" 6010, no weave motions, just a whip 'n pause up the joint. I'd start out around 80-90 amps and just play with it until it was getting good enough pen/looks. Like it's already been said, you've GOT to know how to read the puddle, if you aren't alright at that, your weld will be on the floor as much as it's on the plates! lol. It helps me to have the plate at least on the same plain as my head or maybe a tad bit higher than my chin or so to help me see the puddle well...As for rod angles and such, use a push angle at around 10-15 degrees and aim the electrode smack dab in the center of your joint!Lean mean TIG weldin' machineSquarewave 175
Reply:Well I ran some 1/8 5p+ on about 3 or 4 feet of scrap in the garage, and went and hung a gate.  The welds aint super, but its hanging.  How wide is a bead supposed to be?When y'all talk about whip and pause, where do you pause, and where do you whip to after that?Sorry, but I did not get any pictures of my work.  I had too many other things to worry about at the time, such as getting the gate up with 400 cows watching me.I know very few people that could teach me, well there is one man that could do an excellent job, it's just that I don't have 12 spare hours to ask him for help.  Once this guy starts talking, there is no stopping.  Welding shops around here are of little help, the bigger ones have non-weldors working there, and the smaller one I frequent does not really have equipment set up in the back room.  Maybe I will ask the guys at the welding/machine shop to point me in the right direction some time.The things that really scare me are "professional" weldors that can't burn a rod worth crap.  I was on a 17 million dollar construction project site today, and saw some of the overhead welds on a temporary brace, man, talk about scary.Thanks for all the advice, and keep it coming if at all possible.
Reply:On the whip and pause, you basically whip up the joint about twice the size of your rod or so, then you go back to the puddle and pause just enough to fill it in....Basically whip up the joint a little and go back until the puddle looks good, just have to watch the puddle a little more carefully and be carefull not to weld a little island ahead of your weld bead! It sucks when that happens because you have to fix it, lol. If you can figure it out, you'll get in your own rythm on it and get some nice lookin 6010 beads.Lean mean TIG weldin' machineSquarewave 175
Reply:sberry . . .  I'm actually starting to get some decent vertical up welds going.......Been practicing with 6010 (red flux), 5P+, 6011....This has got to be the hardest weld to make !I weld fine on flat...horizontal...vertical down (courtesy of my local natural gas company)...and even overhead.......But vertical up is a hoot !.... Nearest I can figure,....ya' gotta' cut the amps WAY down.....if I don't,  I get lots of (too) deep penetration with too much weld build-up....real "chunky" looking !....hard to explain, but looks like $hit !I'll be the LAST one to let you down !
Reply:Turning the amps down isnt the ticket,, you need someone to actually show you how to do it. Its about impossible to do it well just chatting about it on the net.  A piece of pipe running horizontal has all the positions, flat, vert and overhead.  Same settings. The only time I turn a machine down and its just a little is gaps on light sheet.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:I agree with sberry, when I run a hot pass on pipe i run about 110 amps that is 6010 up. At that amp i run fast  the whip and pause is hard to explane soo much easyer to show someone. when im done with the pass it looks flat and wet. each pause lays a nice flat ripple i whip up and slitely out long enough to see the pudle freez and then lay another on top of that.no you cant fix it with a hot pass.BORN TO LOSE, LIVE TO WIN.
Reply:Machines are funny too,, I have a AC/DC Lin tombstone, runs 1/8 6010 and 3/32 lo-hi toasty at 85A setting and 90 is slightly too hot unless you really keep on your toes, although I have a great power supply, same electrodes in one of my portables the settings say 120,,, ha.  I should get a DC amprobe or meter and see what the actual is.  I also agree with Wolf that its so difficult to explain what can become instinct after a while.  About impossible to explain how to vary the penetration with that type of electrode.  The right heat makes the rod operate correctly and the rest is operator technique. I run 100A 6010 on 16 gauge. Its a thing of making the electrode do what YOU want it to do as much as what it does by its characteristics.  On sheet it becomes second nature to use tacks to the advantage and placement can be critical to making it easy or difficult, where am I going to start and stop,,, where is it going to add to the heat sink the best, where are any gaps, etc.Last edited by Sberry; 05-01-2004 at 07:01 PM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Well guys....I really appreciate the advice.   I guess I'll just keep trying different amp settings, and different travel speeds, and different movement on the stick until I stumble across something that works !    I'm gonna' learn how to run 6010 uphill and get a good looking weld if it's the last damn thing I do ! ! !  I'll be the LAST one to let you down !
Reply:Marko my instructor at school told me after it took my first pice of pipe to him, that looks ok now make me 30 more. All it takes is doing it over and over again. I think that is the key. and it worked for meno you cant fix it with a hot pass.BORN TO LOSE, LIVE TO WIN.
Reply:I agree with you wolf....the more you do something, the easier it gets.   Years ago when i was a music major, my mother would tell me: "practice makes perfect".   One of my professors told me that that's incorrect.....practice does NOT make perfect...."PERFECT practice makes perfect !"   In other words: Don't practice something the wrong way, or that's the way you'll learn it.That's where i'm at right now with this 6010 vertical-up crap.  It's not that I absolutely HAVE to know how to do it........when I need to weld something vertical, I do it down, and have no problem at all getting a perfect weld.   NO !...I want to learn how to do it because there's guys out there that insist it can be done, and done well !   It's a matter of principle for me now !I'll be the LAST one to let you down !Not only that but in  some code welding  you have no option but vertical up welding my asme certification is all up hill 6010 root and hot pass and 7018 fill and cap.no you cant fix it with a hot pass.BORN TO LOSE, LIVE TO WIN.
Reply:i was taught NOT to leave the puddle [totally] as it tends to trap slag betwixt the "whips"! i use a "corkscrew" motion and keep a close eye on the weld "toes"[where undercut might occur]...this insures really deep penetration but does reqiure some getting used to!if your getting "chunking" or potrusions in your verts, its prolly NOT to much weld as much as it is to little filler metal being deposited! tighten  up the arc lenth [short arc= cooler temp] and pause a little more in depositing filler...moving too fast and long arc lenths just burn away the parent materials, wheras proper depositing of the filler will "qench" [somewhat} the temp of the base material...i totally agree with sberry that lower heats are`nt the keyit never hurts to look,unless they`r WELDING!
Reply:Thanks kllrjo, I appreciate that....it makes sense.   I'll give it a try. I'll be the LAST one to let you down !