Drying a 7018 rod

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Good day eh,         I had an old fella drop by tonight to pick up a stick welder i had for sale.He says do you have some 7018 rods laying around id like to run a few beads.I says yea sure but they been sittin awhile so dont expect to much.He says Son(i am not a young man but this guy was around when coal was still trees)let me show ya a little trick i learned a while back.He takes the whip ,turns down the amperage to about 75 amps and grounds the rod for a  few seconds and presto a little steam and he says that oughta do it and gives the rod a snap, ups his amps and welds some pretty beads.So anyone one else use this drying method or is it rod ovens or bust?FelonCaution lurker lives here" hmmm That is serious,pass the ganja and pick up a  24 of MGD"
Reply:Wiseguy.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Hello Felonyass Monk, if you're asking from a code-acceptable perspective, the answer would be a resounding no. If I had issues with wet rod at home on something of my own......great tip. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:A buddy who used to be a welder by profession, and a good one, told me he used to do that. I don't do wleds requiring xray quality so I just keep them as dry as possible. I am looking for a good deal on a Keen 50 lb. capacity oven. I would like to keep 10 lbs each of 7018 3/32, 1/8, and 5/32 hot. I just like new toys."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:do it all the time.. even x-ray quality welds... as long as the flux ain't flakin off or fingernailin, it's all good.. also can run a grinder off my tig rig with no drop chord and charged my  AA batteries with my tig rig (which sometimes dont always go as planned..lol).. also can control my heat using tigwire on my ground clamp.. i got all types of neat little tips and tricks.. anyone else with any?..if you're not livin on the edge, you're takin up too much room..
Reply:Originally Posted by Stick-manA buddy who used to be a welder by profession, and a good one, told me he used to do that. I don't do wleds requiring xray quality so I just keep them as dry as possible. I am looking for a good deal on a Keen 50 lb. capacity oven. I would like to keep 10 lbs each of 7018 3/32, 1/8, and 5/32 hot. I just like new toys.
Reply:felon, my instructor at boces called that a poor mans rod oven..
Reply:are there any rich welders out there?.. lol..if you're not livin on the edge, you're takin up too much room..
Reply:Originally Posted by ibanezed4yrsfind an old, small , refigerator and (keeping it unplugged of course) throw in a decently high powered bulb in it (hell.. a regular 100 watt bulb will do).. one big rod oven.. it'll keep your rods dry without heating them up to an ungodly temp..
Reply:yeah.. pull your tungsten out a bit away from the cup (argon off) and stick it through the hole on the large side of the plug (you know how a plug has a larger sized prong and a smaller sized one?.. tungsten goes to large side).. then place other prong to grounded work... works killer in the high-line when making field welds and you don't wanna string a drop chord.. coarse, they also sell an apparatus made to do the same thing with a positive stinger for when you're stick welding..if you're not livin on the edge, you're takin up too much room..
Reply:Ok ibanezed4yrs, How do you control your heat with tig wire and the ground clamp?
Reply:300-350 in an oven 1-2 hours fo rods in open packages longer than 1 week.longer if the rods are acually wet. i read that in new lessons in arc welding 14th edition. thats if your welding to code on a skyscraper or brigde. im gonna look for an old small freezer and a 100 watt bulblincoln weld pak 100 hdlincoln ranger 225gxt ac/dcoxy/acetylenepuroxcw202 victor fc100harris model 85harrismodel 16oxweld w24roxweld w17
Reply:Originally Posted by Stick-manI thought about that. But even the smallest college size box is way bigger than I need. I keep on hand 10lb cans, and I just want to keep the unused fresh once opened. I only need room for up to 30 lbs but ..........
Reply:yes I've heard of that before also it does work...HOBART IronMan 230 MIGSmith Lifetime WH200 HD O/A Torch
Reply:hell.. for storing rods, you need heat.. constant heat.. what you're talkin about is a home-made rod caddy.. those are cheap anyways.. i thought he was talkin about storin a decent amount of  rods for a long time..if you're not livin on the edge, you're takin up too much room..
Reply:Anyone else think about making a storage container that could be purged with inert gas?
Reply:A tupperware box with a fitting on the side with an argon fitting?Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:I dry mine out with a modified toaster oven.
Reply:Posted above:hell.. for storing rods, you need heat.. constant heat.. what you're talkin about is a home-made rod caddy.. those are cheap anyways.. i thought he was talkin about storin a decent amount of rods for a long time..
Reply:I use an old refrigerator with a bucket of magnesium chloride in the bottom.  I keep all my rods in this box.  I see no difference in usability and welding with rods stored in there or a brand new just opened box.  The salt takes all the moisture out of the air.  It is cheap and uses no energy.  Calcium chloride should also work.  I get my salt from our farm supplier. Calcium chloride can be bought from cement providers. They use in in concrete to keep it from freezing in the winter when they pour.
Reply:The weld quality difference between a dry 7018 and a not so dry 7018 is not always apparent to the naked eye.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2No, heat isn't required. Remove the source of moisture, and moisture can't be a problem. Use a sealed container, and replace (purge) any existing 'wet' air with dry gas, e.g. Argon as Denrep suggested.The idea behind keeping a storage container warm is that it  then has reduced Relative Humidity which slows down or stops the adsorption of moisture by the rods, but the affinity of the rod coating is what determines, in the end, how successful any procedure is. A good, well-sealed vacuum chamber is actually more efficient because it doesn't require a constant source of energy, as a heated chamber does.The temperature required to properly oven dry some rod types is fairly high, which means the R.H.  of a standard storage oven needs to be very low to keep the rod from adsorbing; to get this low R.H. in a heated chamber, the temperature difference required can be fairly great, much higher than a light bulb (suggested earlier) will cause.
Reply:All of you guys talking about quick, cheap, easy ways of maintaining low-hydrogen properties of rods,,,,    There are very specific methods of doing so, and none of those very specific methods include anything mentioned to this point.    If you want to do code welds, you absolutely have to follow code proceedures, a lightbulb in a refigerator doesn't quite make the grade .
Reply:Jsfab is right, and it takes a serious bake-out to restore the LH properties to exposed electrode.But a sealed "dry" container would certainly be worth exploring. After all, that's the only moisture protection that a new unopened electrode container provides. Originally Posted by ibanezed4yrspracticality man.. storing rods you need heat to lower relative humidity.. yup.. a vacuum?.. inert atmosphere?.. so every time i want a rod, rather than opening the rod-box, getting rods and closing rod-box, i would have to open said container, get rods, shut container, and then turn bottle on and create inert atmosphere.. every time i want a rod.. seems like alot of work to me..
Reply:i suppose.. i go thru a 50 pound can in 3 days.. so there is no long term storage for me..lol.. personally, i use rods out of a rod oven i keep on my jobsite.. sometimes, i don't use anything at all.. just use the rods that have been layin' out all night.. i do what the first post said.. stick and heat.. also.. we weren't talkin code welds here.. i see your side tho.. long term for home use or somethin...if you're not livin on the edge, you're takin up too much room..Felonyass Monk,  Just to elaborate on Allans answer in post #3. For things that are noncritical where a failure will result in nothing more than an "Aww crap, it broke again" or digging a part out of the dirt, the trick for drying electrodes works.However for code work that falls under AWS D1.1AWS D1.1 Clause 5. Fabrication5.3.2.1 Low-Hydrogen Electrode Storage Conditions.All electrodes having low-hydrogen coverings conforming to AWS A5.1 and AWS A5.5 shall be purchased in hermetically sealed containers or shall be baked by the user in conformance with 5.3.2.4 prior to use. Immediately after opening the hermetically sealed container, electrodes shall be stored in ovens held at a temperature of at least 250 F (120 C). Electrodes shall be re-baked no more than once. Electrodes that have been wet shall not be used. From table 5.1 Allowable Atmospheric Exposure of Low-Hydrogen Electrodes.E70XX & E70XX-X 4 hours max.E80XX 2 hours max.Note 3 for table 5.1 states "Electrodes shall be issued and held in quivers, or other small open containers." Best regards,jrw159
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepJsfab is right, and it takes a serious bake-out to restore the LH properties to exposed electrode.But a sealed "dry" container would certainly be worth exploring. After all, that's the only moisture protection that a new unopened electrode container provides.Ibanezed4yrs - Not exactly. Lets say you're not running volume production, but buying 50# quantities, or storing smaller amounts of mixed electrodes.For long-term storage, you'd have absolute perfect protection, without electricity.On a critical job, you would pull an estimated  quantity from storage, and use a typical hot-box while working.That was my motive; true long-term protection for the seldom used electrodes, the large ones and the 110's, so that they're actually LH when you really need it.Good Luck
Reply:here's the Lincoln site, they have specifics for different situations, different rods:http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowl...nt/storing.aspOne point that hasn't been made is that it is not just water that is in the rod, it is the chemistry that has been modified with the addition of -OH groups to the flux coating.  "Drying" might not always be the best term, as you sometimes are chemically reforming the molecules in the flux to drive off those OH groups. As Lincoln says: longer time at a lower temperature is not a replacement for the correct temperature.  So, I think that means that heating the rod with the arc might drive off the moisture but might not be the right temperature to reform the molecules.
Reply:Hello bobcatter, you have hit the nail on the head with the latter part of your post regarding reforming the oxides that come from exposure to moisture. Heating at lower temperatures will drive out active moisture, but isn't sufficient to change the oxides that have already formed from exposure to moisture, in order to do that it requires a Hi-temp bake-out at a specific temperature and for a specific time. D1.1 goes a bit further and specifies only one bake-out before you should discard the rod and that it cannot be used for code welding according to their specifications. There are likely other codes that take a slightly different view on this situation and those who work to those codes would have to investigate their stance on this subject. Earlier in my career I performed plenty of welding that didn't take these precautions into account, I can't say positively whether there were detrimental effects for absolute sure, but that doesn't make it right or correct. With current information and supporting documentation, those who don't adhere to the standards will open themselves up for liability and responsibility. Everyone needs to make their own decision with regard to this sort of information, for anyone who does code work they will likely already be aware or need to consider this topic seriously as they perform work with Lo-hydrogen electrodes or any other moisture sensitive consumables. A bit more for folks to consider. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Go to Wal-Mart get yourself a vacuum packager ($50.00 or so) open your sealed container and repackage in 1 pound vacuum sealed packs or r how ever many you need at one time. You can always open another pack if you need more. This also helps if you are charging customers for consumables as you know exactly what was used at the end of the day."Liberalism is a mental disorder" Dr. Savage
Reply:Originally Posted by flatbustedbrokeGo to Wal-Mart get yourself a vacuum packager ($50.00 or so) open your sealed container and repackage in 1 pound vacuum sealed packs or how ever many you need at one time. . . .
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepOkay Flatbustedbroke - It took a while, but I finally scored a garage sale vacuum sealer.The sale included several rolls of heavy plastic tube. The supplies are probably worth more than the machine. Here's how it went:..............................So I put them in a cheapie metal tote box for storage.Will it work? It should, unless the bags get punctured.Bagging electrode would sure straighten up the rat's nest.But the first batch seemed like a lot of tedious messing around.We'll see how it goes.Thanks  for the idea, Flatbustedbroke
Reply:After looking at your pics, again, I now see that it was a sealed can...........07 Fowler 200D65 RedFace04 Miller TB 302, 22hpMiller 12RCMiller HF 251-1Lincoln SP135HyperTherm PM 380and a few others... Originally Posted by RhynoBut, if I "all of a sudden disappear....  ...." hopefully I didn't suffer too much....
Reply:Depending on how dry your XX18 rods were, will depict if the bag will look the same in a few days. If the rods were moist, the water under vacuum, will boil off and will show by the bag being "a little looser," than when packaged.Even though the water is "boiling," it does it at a much lower temperature. I don't have the exact numbers, but water will boil at room temp and lower, while under vacuum.-Rhyno
Reply:Originally Posted by Felonyass MonkGood day eh,         I had an old fella drop by tonight to pick up a stick welder i had for sale.He says do you have some 7018 rods laying around id like to run a few beads.I says yea sure but they been sittin awhile so dont expect to much.He says Son(i am not a young man but this guy was around when coal was still trees)let me show ya a little trick i learned a while back.He takes the whip ,turns down the amperage to about 75 amps and grounds the rod for a  few seconds and presto a little steam and he says that oughta do it and gives the rod a snap, ups his amps and welds some pretty beads.So anyone one else use this drying method or is it rod ovens or bust?Felon
Reply:lots of great info... thanks52, 59 & 66 Lincoln SA200, Tombstone Idealarc 250, Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 50, Marquette 250 amp mig, Miller 330 A/BP
Reply:As long as they aren't code welds...CWI, CWE, CST for Miller, Lincoln, Thermadyne, Hypertherm & ESABMillermatic 350PLincoln Invertec 205 AC/DCVictor combo torchESAB PCM 1125
Reply:We're gaining on it.I threw Alfred's cigars out of the oven and cranked up the heat to cook a batch:Attachment 49411But if you have any small red tool boxes lying around,  tomorrow, they'd better be full and  nailed down Last edited by denrep; 10-19-2010 at 11:44 PM.
Reply:Storage comes up periodically, so here's the summary:Cellulitic fluxes: keep from getting wet. No heat. Heating cooks the flux and ruins the rods. Adding moisture later won't help, any more that soaking toast in water gives you fresh bread.Lo-Hy: a fridge with a lightbulb generally won't maintain the rods any better than nothing over the long term, but over a short term (a few days to a few weeks) will help. Not suitable for work to AWS, ASME, or any other code I am aware of, but fine for most general purpose work. In fact, for most general purpose work on material less then 1/2 inch using low carbon steel, you really don't need to worry about hydrogen at all unless the temperature is below about 50 degrees F.The flux is hygroscopic (it absorbs moisture from the air directly as part of a chemical reaction) with relative humidity greater than a few percent, unless the temperature is above about 200 to 250F. Easy way: store at 250F. Less easy: maintain temp at the appropriate temp above ambient to keep the RH low enough the rods stay dry (see ASME SFA5.1 for details. General spec is minimum of 50F above ambient) Vacuum storage or inert atmosphere storage will do the job as well, for most uses, (if the rods are not permitted to pick up moisture between the bakeout/factory can and the vacuum pack) but on a code job will need to be proven with lab tests. Easier to use an oven.Once the rods have been exposed to moist air, they WILL NOT dry at any temp below the bakeout temp (500 to 700F for most brands, for an hour or so. It depends on the exact flux composition, so see the papers for the particular brand and stock number). The flux hydrates like portland cement-- the water chemically bonds in. To remove it, the flux must be heated to a high enough temperature to break the bonds (like calcining cement of plaster) for long enough that the moisture can diffuse out. Shorting the rod for a few seconds isn't enough, and heating in a toaster oven to 300F isn't either.If the rod has seen liquid water, it is scrap. The steel will rust and NO bakeout short of a blast furnace will fix that. You may not see the rust, but it is there. Yes, Lo-Hy has about the best reducing property of any rod, but it doesn't take much oxidation before the entire capability of the flux is committed to reducing the oxides in the filler rod, and there isn't enough left to properly clean and shield the weld, giving a porous weld and crappy performance..
Reply:Denrep; Have you seen the little indicator cards with spots which change from blue to pink when the humidity gets above a certain point? I have some with three spots, 10%, 20% and 30% IIRC. I think I've seen some for 5% too; if you could get some of those and seal them into your bags, they might give you some information about how well the system works, even though 5% might be at the upper end of allowable at room temperature. The cards might be available at a good refrigeration supply company; FWIW. they generally use Cobalt Chloride as the principal chemical. The freon systems sometimes have sight glasses with the indicators (they used to be a 'ceramic' rather than paper spot)  inside to indicate the presence of moisture within a system; I used one in an R-12 unit I built years ago.
Reply:Just a thought:  Use silica gel by pouring some of it into a rod tube partly empty.  You can get this in larger containers at Walmart - it's used for drying flowers.  When it absorbs enough moisture it changes colour to let you know, and you can re-use it by putting it in the oven (the instructions are on the box), and the colour changes back again.  This stuff is the same as all the packets used for packing tools etc.  I haven't used it for welding rods yet, because I just got a welder, but I have used it for toolboxes etc, and it works good - just put it in coffee filters and close with elastic for tools.  Maybe just pour it in loose for rods.Last edited by vulcanrider75; 10-25-2010 at 10:13 PM.
Reply:all seem to  agree that if if it is not a code weld, a lohy rod that has laid around is okay and none of these methods is necessary. if it is a code weld, the inspector has no choice but to require what is specified, and none of these methods ,regardless of how ingenious ,would be acceptable.
Reply:Originally Posted by jsfabIf you want to do code welds, you absolutely have to follow code proceedures,.
Reply:please clarify... using what method of drying? Originally Posted by zhillzWell my xray's just came back with a thumbs up. 2 different ones too. Just sayin.When I was taught by one guy was to remove every bit of slag after every pass and to sometimes let the pipe cool (not on big field pipes just our XX coupons). Now i just break off the slag and run it hotter and burn through everything and fill it to flush without stopping.