A truely testing project for beginners

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okay... so i thought it'd be a piece of cake to get this BBQ welded up and made into a turkey-roasting, Rib-smoking, steak grilling beast... yea... not so much. this thing will be the end of my welding hobby i think... so far i've burned thru the rim about 7 or 8 times with the lowest heat setting and the slowest wire speed that won't burn back so that i can keep everything cool... AAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!  ... i've destroyed a sweatshirt... it will now be a shop-shirt only... my girl won;t even let me wear it around the house... and oh yea... i've pissed off too many neighbors... for some reason, they don;t like the sound of me grinding on a steel drum for an hour straight... they jsut moved in next door this past week... welcome to the neighborhood. hehehehehe ... anyway... here's some pics of what i've done so far...take one... any one... i chose the one on the far left...after i cleaned up the edges, i attempted to weld the lid on... here's my POS results...here's what it looks like when i attempt to fill in a burn-thru hole...from a distance, it doesn't look TOO bad, but it's still a POS...for some reason, the spatter doesn't like to stick to the painted lid... the soapstone is there to refrence (spelling?) the size of the pile...and finally, the one that everyone's been waiting for... my destroyed shirt... as previously noted, this will now be a shop-only shirt... this was caused by a 4.5" Shop Force grinder... it's the cheapest one that Menards had. only about 25 bucks... i don't want to think about what coudl have happened if it were a good grinder with a decent amount of power... as soon as it hit my shirt, it spun the shirt around itself, siezing up the grinding disk, and stopping the disk from rotating... i could still hear the grinder humming untill i shut it off... i don't even know what i was doing wrong... i think it had to of hit a large bur or something and kicked up off the work...anyway... there you go... i hope to have more up tomorrow... as long as the woman lets me still play with my toys anyway... she got real scared when i come in with a torn up shirt and was cussing... she thought i cut my stomach open... for some reason it never even messed with my t-shirt under the sweatshirt... i guess someone was watching out for my baby's daddy.later,AndyP.S... if anyone has ANY suggestions, i'm all ears... the thinner metal of the barrel is going to drive me up the wall and/or possbily off a cliff by the end of this project... i still ahve to make 3 more after this one too.Last edited by aczeller; 11-17-2007 at 09:16 PM.
Reply:1-???I'm guessing that the 'Bitchin' LE 100 HD' is a 120 v. mig--running on gas, by the looks of the photos. 2-120v. machines can be cranked way down in heat. This is good for what you're trying to do.3-Use .024 steel wire----reverse the polarity from what it 'normally' is for gas/wire welding (this will further lower your heat input)4-You'll need to have reasonably clean metal to do this without hassle, plus changing contact tips, REALLY good grounding5-push the bead, not pull-to put less heat in the weld, help avoid melt-thru,then make small stitches--stopping before you get melt thru. Be patient.Blackbird
Reply:Those barrels appear to have, at some time, contained something.Are they new?
Reply:Originally Posted by EnderThose barrels appear to have, at some time, contained something.Are they new?
Reply:Not to take a step back here but I'd almost assume getting a liquid barrel would save you this headache. They are the ones with the threaded plug in the top of the barrel and both ends are already welded shut.No possibility of finding one of those?
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelson1-???I'm guessing that the 'Bitchin' LE 100 HD' is a 120 v. mig--running on gas, by the looks of the photos.
Reply:Some of those barrels have a gasket on the end plate.  If it did, you may not be getting a good ground.Hobart 140 Handler w/ gasHyperTherm Powermax 380 Plasmaoxy/acetylene
Reply:Originally Posted by EnderNot to take a step back here but I'd almost assume getting a liquid barrel would save you this headache. They are the ones with the threaded plug in the top of the barrel and both ends are already welded shut.No possibility of finding one of those?
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick MoranSome of those barrels have a gasket on the end plate.  If it did, you may not be getting a good ground.
Reply:considering that i can't change wire (i jstu threw in a 10lb spool of .035 NR211-MP), can i still change the polarity? i'm very interested in any possible way to turn down the heat any more. right now, there are 4 possible voltage settings... A, B, C, or D. LE has the actual numerical voltage settings on their webiste and in the owner's manula, but i can't remember them off the top of my head... all this was done on setting "A" with the wire feed rate set at about 2.1-2.5.
Reply:Originally Posted by SandyAny kind of continuous bead is out for a first pass. Lot of smal ovals or short beads maybe.
Reply:sounds like your getting to much heat try making small welds on different sides i have done similar with 35 and if you try to get a bead going you'll burn threw after a half inch or so or if that fails try a series of tack welds one after another so you keep the metal hot im sure someone may say this is wrong but it has worked for me with 35 and skinny metal you might give it a try350P 30A spool gun cut master 51  syncro 250 other stuff " take a dog off the street and make him prosper and he will not bite you sad the same cannot be said for man" i didnt use punctuation just to piss you off
Reply:I am just curious.  At the lowest heat and lowest wire speed are  you getting a proper arc.  Are you still getting the sizzle sound. You might need to anticipate burn through and stop momentarily then begin welding again.It has been a while since I welded on a barrel, though I built several grills from them.  I recall warpage being a bigger problem than burnthrough.  I always got the ones with fixed tops for grill.
Reply:Also, won't a HIGHER wire speed prevent burn-through a little bit more?  I believe when working with real thin stuff I use low heat with a higher wire speed (between 5 and 8 somewhere on my MM135).  If I'm dead wrong please tell me, because I'd like to do it right in the future lol.Have a Jeep Cherokee?  Click Here!
Reply:Maybe you could try spray welding and go soo fast it cant even burn through.
Reply:On one of the drums I see a bong on top, Take out the bong plug when you weld. I see that it last held honey, while I don't think that honey can explode, taking the bong out is a good practice when ever you are welding on a tank. Many people hive died because of welding on tanks, thus heating up the inside of the tank, and increasing the vapor density, and causing an explosion.
Reply:Vertical downhand is the sheet metal welders best friend...give it a try.A Bong on top ??   Do you mean a Bung ? Maybe that's why it is giving him so much trouble....all the smoke from the 'Bong' keeps getting in his eyes  Last edited by Tinbasher; 11-18-2007 at 12:41 PM.
Reply:thanks for the replys guys... i appreciate it. i think i can get some more free time later today... i can get some more pics up tonight... as far as sizzle sound... i don;t really hear it much unless i'm running a bead. the small tacks that i ended up laying for most of it didn't let me hear it. the "bong" that soemone saw was on a different barrel. on one of the pictures that i posted, it shows a small hole(about 1/4") on the left side of the barrel. i just laid a BIG tack and tapped the side of the barrel to make it. the molten steel jsut fell off and opened a nice round hole for me... a LOT quicker than getting a drill out, chucking the bit, etc.someone else mentioned spary... i can't get my welder up hot enough... the highest heat on this thing according to LE is only 18 volts and 88 amps, and 330 (i think) wire speed.I think i'm going to try the higher wire-speed today... i didn't think about it before... i thought it would just hammer through the puddle... i'll give it shot tho... like i said, i'm open to try anything right now.thanks again for all the help.Later,Andy
Reply:Originally Posted by TinbasherVertical downhand is the sheet metal welders best friend...give it a try.
Reply:yes...vertical down...
Reply:If you could get gas you would´ve been done by now... MIG and gas rocks for such small thicknessesMy Babies: HF Drill pressHF Pipe Bender3   4.5" Black and Decker angle grindersLincoln Electric PROMIG 175that´s it!
Reply:Actually, the higher wire speed fills faster, therefore if you are in a spot where normally you would burn through, the higher fill rate will pool up better instead of just using the arc to simply burn through the parent material.  Lemme know what the higher speed did, I have a feeling that it'll work great .Have a Jeep Cherokee?  Click Here!
Reply:Definitely gas is better than flux core, but what cha gonna do?
Reply:may I suggest that you get some PPE or at least learn not to wear loose clothing when around a spinning object, had this been a good or larger grinder you may have been seriously damaged.        SAFETY FIRST.Life is tuff,so be sharp  lincoln sp 100  cutmaster101  miller bobcat  miller 250 mig  $thousands in snapon
Reply:I just read all this.  I had the same thing happen to me with a 7" grinder.  I was grinding something on my dads kinda low welding bench.  The grinder grabbed my sweat shirt, wound it up and stopped in less time than I knew what happened.  It felt like getting punched......NO LOOSE CLOTHING AT WORK.  I only wear cotton because those polyester dickies burn and stick you when they do.For the barrel, I bet you could do it down hand.  I have been running a lot of NR211 and it rocks.  Why not wire speed 1?  Wire speed = amps.  Less amps = less heat.I thought 3.5 was as high as they went for innershield.  And no you can't change polarity for flux core or bare wire.  MY opinion.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.If you have an opening inside you might try welding on the inside and use some TIG filler rod to beef up the thickness.
Reply:yup i say lose the lose clothing it can be disastrous just ask the guy who got his wiener pulled into a cement mixer350P 30A spool gun cut master 51  syncro 250 other stuff " take a dog off the street and make him prosper and he will not bite you sad the same cannot be said for man" i didnt use punctuation just to piss you off
Reply:yea... i thought the sweatshirt wasn't all that loose cuz of my "little" gut, but guess i was wrong. my girl bought that sweatshirt for me and it was too small, but i told myself i'd loose weight so i can fit into it... that never happened... she was kinda mad that i messed up the sweatshirt when i told her, but she was more happy that i was safe. i guess i'll jsut have to wear pleathe from now on. hahahahaha! anyway, someone else mentioned TIG? can't happen... no TIG torch at home and not enough room in my car to fit the barrel to take it to work. David, i tried the wire speed at about 2.5 and it seemed to be okay... i'll try the lower setting tomorrow... i have to get a material list and fab prints made up tonight so i can get the material tomorrow from work so i can get the stuff done this weekend. oh yea... that reminds me.. i have to tell you that i found that this thing will be much cheaper than i originally thought... not including gas to get the 4 barrels in a V10 Triton Excursion (gas guzzler), i am only paying about 120 dollars a piece for these grills including consumables, grinding & cutting disks, and paint. 5 dollars per barrel, figure 20 for paint, 20-30 for wheels, and 70 for materials. not bad for a first time "major project". i love my job... where else can you get 3/8" round stock for less than $2.25 per 20' length? and the 60 feet of 1" tube? less than 25.i figure that i'll be getting some 3/4"x9 304 SS expanded metal for the grates and shelves, i got some 80mm bullet hinges, about 60' of 1" square tube, and about 20' of 3/8" round stock... i'll only need about 3' of the round for all the handles (not even 3' probably), but i plan on making 4 grills total and figure it'll be good to start creating my own scap metal stock pile.i'll try to get the 3D rendering up here beofore i go to bed.Thanks for all the input guys... i really appreciate it.later,Andy
Reply:Same thing happened to me....except I had a knotted wire wheel on it.Under my truck grinding on the exhaust...it grabbed, hit the ground and flew right back at me, I had a short sleeved shirt on of course, and it made itself home right below my armpit.....wish I had some pics of that...nastyThese barrels wouldnt be like stainless or something would they, just a thought cuz they used to hold foodstuffs???Miller blue star 2eLincoln 175
Reply:Originally Posted by FearcityINCThese barrels wouldnt be like stainless or something would they, just a thought cuz they used to hold foodstuffs???
Reply:okay... never mind... if someone really wants the plans, i can make 'em up after i get the thing built... i got the general shape done and got the dimensions that i need for the material list. i have that too if anyone wants it. anyway, it's jsut too much work for tonight to get the fab prints and renderings made. i'll just build it and take plenty of pics. later,Andy
Reply:okay... so i got the other material ordered this morning... going out at lunch  to cut it up... should take me at least today, and probably tomorrow too... we'll see... i'll get some pics of the parts before i wedl everything up... quick question... does anyone have any tips on how to keep square tubing at a 90 degree joint while i weld? i ordered some of the magnetic arrow jigs from HF yesterday, and i don;t expect to get them until next week... i want to get at least a little bit of the frame welded up this weekend if possible... any help is greatly appreciated.Later,Andy
Reply:You could use one of these in a pinch.  Double check the alignment after every tack weld with a square.  Generic versions can be picked up for a couple bucks at any home depot type place.http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...cStoreNum=8125
Reply:The magnetic jigs themselves will not hold the joint square while the tacks are cooling.  They only hold it relatively square so you can place your first tack.  As it cools, the tubing will go out of square (the joint will open up on the opposite side from the first tack).  After the initial tack, get out a framing or machinists square and check for squareness and bend/pound the tubing back to a square condition.  Place the second tack opposite the first and check again.  Once you get a couple tacks on it should stay square and you can weld it up.  I just picked up another welding magnet from HF.  It is two big rectangular magnets tied together with metal straps and a gap between them.  The magnets can be oriented at any angle and cinched up for situations where your parts are not at 90 degrees.  Works well for cases where you can't use clamps.Since you don't have your magnetic clamps yet, I'd just square the pieces up on a flat surface using a square, place your first tack and then resquare it and place the next tack...Last edited by IrishBrewer; 11-20-2007 at 12:49 PM.
Reply:thanks for the tips guys... i think it'll be okay if i clamp it down tight with a bunch of c-clamps... tack it once, check it, tack it again, check it, tack it again, check it, then run a bead around each side.i got the square tube cut at lunch today... i'll be takeing care of the expanded 304 SS tomorrow... and possibly the round stock... i'm not exactly sure yet. i still need the expanded, the flat stock, the round stock, and a big-ol' hunk of scrap to weld on... i think i can get a 2'x2' scrap of 3/8" SS tomorrow. th'd be good to clamp to.anyway, if i don't talk to anyone by this weekend, have a happy thanksgiving.later,Andy
Reply:okay... so i went out and got my 1" sqare stock cut... here is how you fit 60' of 1" stock into a tiny car...for scale, the longest tube there is about 65 inches long. the ones on the far right are exactly 24". i got it all for about $14 from work...i also put a few more tacks around the rim tonight to try and strengthen it... got done at a quarter to 10, so i figured the neigbors would probably get pissed if i started grinding... so i packed it up and decided to call it a night. hopefully i can start getting the frame built tomorrow night. after that, i can get the hinges on and cut the door. i can;t wait till this thing is done. i think the next ones will go much faster... i'm learning a ton about working on thin sheet metal and how to properly prep the metal for welding. i am thinking that if i media-blast the lid next time, it may weld a bit easier... no metal will be taken off and the paint will be gone. i'll probably do it to the rim of the barrel too.a couple people mentioned trying to change the wire speed too... i tried cranking it and it burnd thru really fast where it could and if it was solid metal behind the bead, it just hammered. i tried to turn it down to reduce the amperage and i was able to turn it down a little more, but not much. if i went much below about 2.5, it would burn back and cause the weld bead to pretty mcuh jsut lay on top... no real penetration to speak of. thanks for the ideas tho... it taught me a lot... i used to think that the wire speed was jsut for the deposition rate of filler metal... i had no idea it controlled the amperage. i gotta get some sleep now. thanks to everyone for following my slow progress and the informative input.Later,Andy
Reply:Now that I remember...if you´re still having problems blowing through you can use TIG filler rod...I´ve done it sticking and works good. But everything´s coming out nicely! be sure to post more pics as soon as you take them!My Babies: HF Drill pressHF Pipe Bender3   4.5" Black and Decker angle grindersLincoln Electric PROMIG 175that´s it!
Reply:Originally Posted by aczelleri used to think that the wire speed was jsut for the deposition rate of filler metal... i had no idea it controlled the amperage. Andy
Reply:alrighty... finally got a chance to get online this weekend... i got the rest of the frame built... for now... i still need to put the casters on (probably the cheap-o's from HF, but i'm still debating). i need to sand-blast the entire thing before i get any pictures... the slag and spatter is pretty bad. i got the hinges and and temporary handle put on and the barrel is now cut. i burned out the inside (honey STINKS when it burns) and scraped off a bit of the exterior paint to check the over-all condition of the barrel meatl quality... looks fine... better than i thought... the little bit of rust is jsut surface rust and comes right off. a few dings, but thanks to the HF hammer and dolly kit that came in the mail today, i think i can bang those out in no time.like i said, i'll get some pictures tomorrow. Later,Andy
Reply:You're using solid round stock for your handles to open the lid?  I'm assuming you would weld brackets on, then weld the round to the brackets?  Don't you think that might get hot?Contact me for any metal polishing needs you may have, my avatar is a pic of a standard, painted fire axe that I ground, sanded polished and buffed to a mirror finish.
Reply:Originally Posted by txfireguy2003You're using solid round stock for your handles to open the lid?  I'm assuming you would weld brackets on, then weld the round to the brackets?  Don't you think that might get hot?
Reply:i got the grate almost done yesterday around 10:00 PM... just have to weld on the handles tonight and she'll be good to go. the warpage was pretty bad, so i had to lay some bare beads on the back to "un-warp" it. i'll take some pictures today, after i get home and it gets too dark. i think i over-engineered it a little too much also. i figure that my 200 lb fat body can probably jump on this and not break it. you'll understand more tonight when i get the pictures up. anyway, i already have some people asking me to build them one. i already have the cost of materials and consumables up to $220, not including the barrel (that's the part that will vary since i can't find a stable source yet). i figure that i can get one done in about 20 hours, including prep and finsih work. i can probably knock this down a bit (maybe down to 10 hours) after i get a few more under my belt and i start making multiple grills at once (do all the fab work first, then the welding... if i get enough orders, i'll plan on making a jig or two to help me out, but for now, my magnet clamps and c-clamps are working just fine. my question is, what should i be asking for a grill? i think $400-$500 is a reasonable price, but most people don't want to pay that much for a grill around here. any ideas? i just don't want to be breaking my back for only a couple bucks per grill, yet i want to have competitive prices.Thanks,Later,Andy
Reply:here's how far i have gotten on this grill so far...over all picture:an inside picture.. note the 1" square tube. that'll be the grate support. it's about 3/4" below the edge of the barrel.i think this is the best part of this project. the hinges are 304 SS that i got from work. these things are great. i know it's just a bullet hinge, but i am really pleased with how well they are working so far.back-side shot... the black marks are places that i need to trim tomorrow for the lid to close smoothly... they are causing the lid to catch a little and not quite close all the way.the back/bottom of the grate... i had to lay some plain beads down on the back side in order to "un-warp" the grate supports... it's all 304/304L SS... the grate is 3/4"x9 flattened expanded grate and the supports are 2"x1/4" flat stock. i know... i know... i can jump on this thing and it won;t break... i wasn't thinking when i ordered the flat stock... next one will probably be more like 1" x 1/8" mild steel.i had other pics, but they didn't turn out all that great... you can check them out here if ou want to...http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/cc228/aczeller/anyway, that's as far as i have gotten thus far. i hope to get the grate supports finished tomorrow and the grate trimmed to fit (minor touch-ups and hammering) and get some handles on the grate. not TOO much, but i'll ahve to do other stuff tomorrow night besides play with my toys, so i'm not setting my goals to high.let me know what you think... tips, tricks, and ideas are always welcome.Thanks!Later,Andy
Reply:As far as keeping costs down, could you work with angle instead of square tube?  Angle is much cheaper than tube. Look at all the sections of steel and ask if you really need them.  Could you get by with using tabs to hold the grate up instead of using full length supports?  Can you weld the legs directly to the bottom of the barrel and leave out the horizontal supports?Ultimately you're looking to build a grill with the least amount of steel and welds necessary to end up with a product you'd feel confident selling.
Reply:yea... i'm thinking that i will need to modify my original plans a little. if i can get the cot down to about 150 for parts (they are about 200 now), i can charge about 300 for a grill to cover consumables and what-not. that'd still give me a decent profit margin, but be way better priced than the other local shops and online vendors. i think that if i can get one or two made and donate/sell them at cost to local charities/organizatons, it would help to get my name out there.thanks for the ideas.Later,Andy
Reply:Update:http://microzone.us/weldingforum/index.php?topic=35.0Later,Andy
Reply:i got the casters fabbed up and the baffle done for the exhaust done (finally). here are the pis and details...http://microzone.us/weldingforum/index.php?topic=35.0i plan on getting it all attached today, then starting on the intake vents. does anyone have any ideas? i know there are many ways of doing it, but i'm not 100% sure on how i want to do it yet, and just wanna see my options.Thanks!Later,Andy
Reply:Originally Posted by aczellerNO... if they were SS, they'd be at the scrap yard... the SS is worth way more right now than $5... i wish... new SS barrels are going for around $700 for a 55 gallon drum. no... these are lined with some sort of epoxy lining... i plan on building a good fire inside of it after everything is welded up, then i plan on sand-blasting, then spray it with some high-temp paint on the outside and leave it bare inside.later,Andy
Reply:Originally Posted by wizard69After all that work why not have a local sheet metal shop roll you a barrel?    At least then you will end up with a suitable gage drum.Burning out then sand blasting that drum is going to be a total joy.Dave
Reply:Just a quick question, i havent read the whole thread but i was just curious, could a guy use mild steel instead of stainless steel for the grill, like would it contaminate the food with a mild steel grill?Nothing Ever Got Done By Quitting, Never Give Up.