Talk me (and more importantly my boss) out of buying a cheep TIG welder . . .

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Talk me (and more importantly my boss) out of buying a cheep TIG welder . . . A little background:  I work doing maintenance and repair work in a Rec Center.  It is a large facility and I do maintenance and repair work on everything big and small  from our refrigeration plant to the locks on the doors.  Our department also looks after a dozen other buildings in town.Two years ago I convince my boss to buy a Lincoln Power MIG 180C for about $875 . . . Pretty sure he thought this was little crazy because in his eyes we didn't really have any "need" for welder.  He was pretty skeptical and didn't think the welder could pay for itself within a year - which was his expectation.Well, within the first two or three weeks of buying a welder one of the hinge mounts broke off one of our most heavily used oversized doors.  Within an hour I had removed the door re-welded the hinge mount back onto the door and had the door back in place working good as new.  My boss said that in the past they would have just replace the door - which would've cost $1,200 . . . So the welder easily paid for itself within the first month.Since then there have be dozens of fixes and the welder has paid for itself at least 20 times . . . not even including all the fab work I've done with it building shelves, mounting brackets, etc.In order to learn to weld I took an O/A & MIG welding class at SAIT - just one of those 30 hour night classes.  It was it was a good class and I learned a lot. Unfortunately I don't remember much of the O/A stuff because we didn't have O/A set up at the time - therefore no chance to practice. We now have a O/A set up but I primarily use it just for heating and bending steel - since we bought a plasma cutter (Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52) around the same time.Few months after the welding class was over I realize that my learning curve would flatten out it without some 'real' welding experience.  So I headed over to a small local welding shop.  As luck had it - I happen to arrive for the same time as a big order steel did - so of course I spent an hour helping him unload it and then asked if I could work for free in order to pick up some more skills.  Long story short I ended up working there for two months doing 20-30 hours a week in addition to my regular full-time job. The guy even ended up paying me for my time and I picked up some very valuable skills.To get back to the point - the TIG machine.  One of the last of the MIG welding classes that I had we got a chance to spend a few minutes on the TIG machines and I really loved the process.  It was a just more to my liking . . . a slower, cleaner more controlled process.  That was two years ago and although I've gotten pretty good at MIG welding there've been lots of jobs were thought to myself . . . If I only had a TIG welder . . .here is my first TIG weld:and this is my second bead:When my instructor looked at the welds he stated "sh*t, if you can do that on your first try -- and with those oven mitts on -- with a little practice you could make really good money as a TIG weldor."Now I know those two beads don't even come close to some of the flawless stacks of dimes that can be found on this forum and my instructor could have just been blowing smoke up my a** . . . but he did seemed to be genuinely impressed.  And keep in mind that I only had about 15min on the TIG machine and those are the only TIG beads that I've done so far.I'm certainly motivated and willing to put in the time required to learn how to TIG weld properly.  Pretty sure that I'll do the 30 hour beginners TIG class at SAIT - as well as using some instructional DVDs and of course lots and lots of practice.  After doing some preliminary online research (some of which consisted of reading many posts here) I've really got my heart set on the Miller Dynasty 200 DX.There have been a few times when I've really wish that I would've gone another step up when purchasing the Lincoln Power MIG 180C.  Don't get me wrong it's a great little machine and for the price it is impressive what it can do.  But I don't want to make that mistake again.  Don't want to buy the cheapest half decent TIG welder and then kick myself for it a couple years from now.So, in order to convince my boss (and myself) need some good solid arguments [rationalizations] for spending more . . . about four times more . . . . $4k on the Miller Dynasty 200 DX rather then just buying a basic TIG machine for around $1k.  Already a my boss convinced that a TIG welder might be worth buying.  However I know he's thinking worth buying for $1-2k - not $4k.Pros of the 200 DX vs. a cheaper unit:- small size . . . we don't have a lot of space to spare in the workshop- portability for doing repair jobs- the versatility - my skills will never won't out grow it- how energy efficient it is . .  . we have half a dozen solar panels on the roofAlso very interested in getting a small milling machine/lathe combo and would love to hear thoughts on those . . . We don't have the space or the money to get both.Ultimately - my long-term goal is to eventually have all the tools and the skills (still in my 20s -so there is still plenty of time to learn) to be able to build or repair just about anything.   I've done some time as a carpenter some already pretty good at woodworking . . . Now I am trying to learn all I can about metalworking.So I guess just like anyone else on here I'm trying to weigh the cost/benefit of spending more on some tools and less on others.Any comments would be greatly appreciated.Thanks,-Jeff
Reply:There's "cheap" and then there's quality. Just because you don't spend a ton of money doesn't mean you have to sacifice quality.You could get the Syncrowave 200 for about 1/2 what the dynasty would run and get probably 80-90% of the capability of the Dynasty 200. You give up the compact size and 110v ability of the dynasty. A big point if you need to bring the machine to the work rather than bring the work to the shop. You also  give up the ability to adjust the frequency when doing alum. Not a huge deal for most, but it would let you do a bit thicker than you can with the Syncrowave. And Yes the Dynasty would draw less juice doing the same job, but it takes a lot of welding to add up to $2K in electric.Another good AC/DC option is the TA 185. It would get you most of what the dynasty will for about $2K. As an inverter it will draw less than the Syncrowave would. If I'd been more familiar with it when I bought my Syncrowave it would have been a strong contender.Another good option would be the Maxstar 150 or 200. You have the portability of the Dynasty with out the Ac capasity for doing alum. Again you can get in for about 1/2 that of the dynasty.I picked the Syncrowave 200 myself as much as I would have loved the Dynasty 200. I just could not justify the extra $2K for a machine that doesn't make me money every day. If I absolutely had to have a portable machine or I needed one that would run on 110v power then I'd look harder at the Dynasty 200. Be aware that on 110v both the maxstar and dynasty won't put out full power so you get a very expensive lower powered machine.While not exactly the answer you want to hear, at least this gives you a few options at a lower price point, that still gives you a top quality machine..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:DSW makes some very good points. If you and your boss know that what ever welder you buy will pay for itself in a short time, then you should buy the one you want. I know, I know, could it really be that easy?Yes.Happy weldingUA Local 598
Reply:i'll go with DSW with the Thermal Arc 185 option... I was skeptical when i was first thinking about it, and someone had recommended one to me as an option, it was priced right.. it come with a ck17 torch and a quality foot pedal, dont recall the brand of footpedal but its a common one... i have owned my ta185 for around 5 yrs i think, cant exactly remember when i bought it...  it has been a good machine for the money, i dont think you can beat it actually.. the ta185 is an inverter machine and weighs in at around 40lbs.. i like like the digital control panel, it also has the pulse function... It seems like the ta185 priceshave gone up lately. i think they are phasing out the 185 and just going to sell a ta200 in that range but the price is quite a bit more for the ta200...tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:Count me in as one of the people who love their Dynasty 200DX, but getting past my lack of impartiality, here's a question.  Do you need A/C?  Is there much aluminum you might be repairing?  If not, then you can save a bundle.Oh. and as a personal machine, I recommend the DX, because it retains its used market value more, but if you've got a pedal, the sequencing isn't very useful, and I really don't find pulsing useful at all, so if I had the SD, I wouldn't notice the difference.
Reply:Get the Diversion 180.
Reply:Originally Posted by JeffThom That was two years ago and although I've gotten pretty good at MIG welding there've been lots of jobs were thought to myself . . . Thanks,-Jeff
Reply:I'm not sure what you mean by basic TIG for $1000.  At that price you are not talking about a new machine or a cheap Chinese machine either lacking in features or lacking in capability, or more likely both.The Dynasty is really only necessary if you are doing aluminum.  You can save some money by looking at Maxstars if you are not.If you don't need the portability or the 200 series Maxstar or Dynasty, you can again save money and get either Syncrowave or Lincolns equivalent.  These transformer machines are heavy and can be wheeled around a shop, but they are typically hard wired into a fuse box.  Add in electricians cost if you don't have a suitable location.  Around here, if the electrician has to bend conduit, $600 minimum.  On the flip side, Syncrowaves are particularly reliable - So used is an option even for a business.For TIG, if you are going to spend any money, high frequency start is a must.If you going to do stainless and have issues with warping or controlling penetration, Maxstar (high frequency pulse) note: transformer machines typically have a low frequency pulser.As for whether to spend money at the LWS or mail order a Chinese welder - that one is simple.  You mentioned this is a business.  Simply ask your boss how much down time can he afford?   I don't know what the loaded shop rate is for your facility.  Back in 1993 I had to hire our internal machine shop.  One low level machinist cost be $125/hr (and he screwed it up).  So I imagine double that is not unheard of in certain machine shops.  On this forum I hear of people selling services for $35/hr (crazy! IMHO).So, if you save $1000 in purchase, somewhere between 4hrs and 30hrs of downtime - over the life of the machine..... and you've made up the difference.  And if you add resale value.... well, brand name helps there as well.  I sold a 30 year old Miller for $600 last summer.  I think that welder has another 30 years of life in it.  Try selling a 3 year old Chinese welder for that.In business, predictability is more important than being the fastest, cheapest etc.  That's why you bring a resume to the job - so that the guy hiring can look into your past performance.  That is also why business need good reputations.  Being able to make the promise that you will deliver on Wednesday is more valuable than saying you have a 30% chance of delivering on Tuesday, or 10% on Monday.  If the boss just wants you to experiment, and down time is no loss to him, buy the cheap welder (and even then, I would say get a used Miller - so if its needed you can actually get parts)Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1What type of jobs?
Reply:On the question about needing to do aluminum.  Well I don't for see many times when it would be needed for repair work.  At least not enough to justify the extra expense.However, right now we have about $15,000 worth of aluminum bleachers on one of are arenas that we will be replacing in the next year or two.  So, it would make sense to get one that will do aluminum - because then I can either chop up those aluminum bleachers and use the material as the structural part of the new bleachers . . . or if we were to do all the framing of the new bleachers with steel then I would have a lot of aluminum material to build with.
Reply:The size and portability are important since it will be used for repair work and some times it will be much faster to take the welder to the repair.
Reply:Originally Posted by joiseystudGet the Diversion 180.
Reply:Originally Posted by rlitmanCount me in as one of the people who love their Dynasty 200DX, but Oh. and as a personal machine, I recommend the DX, because it retains its used market value more, but if you've got a pedal, the sequencing isn't very useful, and I really don't find pulsing useful at all, so if I had the SD, I wouldn't notice the difference.
Reply:If you are eventually going to do aluminum you are going to NEED a watercooled torch.Take that into consideration when looking for a Tig machine.If it is going to stay in one place then go for an older Miller or Lincoln that has the gas and water solenoids in it already..Can be had really cheap used and are real good deals.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Zap,I didn't realize that watercooled torch was a needed for doing aluminum.  Thanks for letting me know.  I had been planning on just getting the air cooled since it is almost $1k less then the watercooled setup.
Reply:Originally Posted by JeffThomZap,I didn't realize that watercooled torch was a needed for doing aluminum.  Thanks for letting me know.  I had been planning on just getting the air cooled since it is almost $1k less then the watercooled setup.
Reply:Originally Posted by JeffThomOn the question about needing to do aluminum.  Well I don't for see many times when it would be needed for repair work.  At least not enough to justify the extra expense.However, right now we have about $15,000 worth of aluminum bleachers on one of are arenas that we will be replacing in the next year or two.  So, it would make sense to get one that will do aluminum - because then I can either chop up those aluminum bleachers and use the material as the structural part of the new bleachers . . . or if we were to do all the framing of the new bleachers with steel then I would have a lot of aluminum material to build with.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1The Bleachers ain't gonna be a Tig project  Anyhoo- you might as well get an AC/DC machine.
Reply:Originally Posted by JeffThomrlitman,  Not sure if I understatand this part.  Are you saying that you don't use the pedal and therefor would have been fine with the SD?Granted I've only ever run two TIG beads so far but I like the foot pedal.What are others thoughts on SD vs DX?
Reply:I'll go against the advice of getting a Water Cooled set up since you said that you'll mostly be bringing the machine to the Job and not that much AL.You can always add it later.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1I'll go against the advice of getting a Water Cooled set up since you said that you'll mostly be bringing the machine to the Job and not that much AL.You can always add it later.
Reply:Originally Posted by joiseystudI agree. Get a spoolgun for your MIG to do this project.