Need help with vertical up stick welds

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Howdy y'all....I am in need fer some advice and tips on making vertical up welds with stick.   I do it all day long at work with a stinkin MIG but I'm havein problems with stick. My boss is gonna be givin me a vertical up test soon and I'm not happy with my results so far. Test will be on 1/4 and 1/2 inch plate, beveled of course and he is giving me the choice of using a backing strip or not. The test is not anything offical...its just to evaluate my progress fer gettin my certs later...but I still want to do my best. Problem is that I only have a Lincoln AC machine at home to practice on but have a Miller engine drive at the shop. I'm use to A/C but I think the Eng Drive would be better fer the test. First- Which rod is best fer the root pass (maybe something that could be used on both my A/C welder and the Eng Drive)6010/6011/5p/ or 5p+?? Second- What would be the best rod to use fer the hot pass and then the fill and cap..7013?? Third-What size rod 3/32 or larger and amp setting (I know that the amps go down as you progress thru the root, hot pass, fill,etc)Fourth- Here is where I have the most problems--How do y'all suggest that I run the bead...whip and pause, figure 8's, weave, straight stingers(fer root pass), zig-zag??? I've tried all of them and have the best luck with fast whip and pause. Is this right or am I totally off track here??I would really appreciate any input you guys have....due to my work schedule I can only get in about 6-8 hours of practice a week and more at the shop when the workload permits. I just dont want to be wastin valuable practice time plowin thru every combination of rod/amp/technique...dont get me wrong I have learned alot using this method but theres a time to call on more experienced welders...and I'm calling now...lol.  Just a warning...be prepared fer the same questions when I start tryin to nail overhead!Thanks Guys ( and you gals too  ), y'all take it easy,Rod"Failure is not an option"
Reply:Navy. its been a lotta years since I got my L.A. city struct cert(1973) so I may be outta line on this. I would not use 7013. Roots w/ 6010, fill and cap w/7018. I always got pretty welds with a whip and pause but I worried about inclusions.My opinion is you should weave, but only about 3x rod size.Any more than this and you are going over cold(sort of) weld and you get inclusions.Hope this helps but maybe someone more up to date can do better.  BTW, thanks for the cool pics.............Tim
Reply:Well with AC you are limited, I would get ahold of some 7018 AC  Rods and practice with them.  Personally I usually use a weave, but others vary to what they persoanally like.  If you are going to be welding 1/4 and 1/2 then I would use a 1/8th.  In my opinion I usually weld 1/4 or less with a 3/32, but on 1/2 it will require several passes.  as far as a root pass goes.  I don't think your AC welder will run well with a 5p or 6010, but you can try.  I would just weld it with the 7018.  Every time I have welded any structural they wanted all 7018 anyway.   Good luck ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:6010 or 6011 for your roots and hot pass..  I would use '10 at work but practice with 6011 at home.It is easier to use 1/8th rod especially if you pieces are small.  Snall test pieces start to overheat as you weld and you will find that you will have to turn your heat down as you fill.The Lincoln Electric procedure Handbook has all the suggested motions.Your rod should be level or pointed up a max of ten degrees .... Five is good.  Practice your root and hot pass first.
Reply:Do you think they'd let you borrow the engine drive machine over a weekend or two for practice?  Switching around might make consistency pretty hard.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:Originally Posted by smithboyDo you think they'd let you borrow the engine drive machine over a weekend or two for practice?  Switching around might make consistency pretty hard.
Reply:Originally Posted by lotechmanYour rod should be level or pointed up a max of ten degrees .... Five is good.  Practice your root and hot pass first.
Reply:I think you'll find that if you can satisfy yourself with the 6011 and 7018AC on your machine at home you'll be more than pleased with the results with 6010 and/or 7018 on the DC machine at work.
Reply:I would just practice vertical fillets until you have them down.  For your first pass with the cellulose rod you can just do a vertical whip. Go up about a quarter inch then back down into your puddle repeating the motion.  If you drop too far down you just fill the puddle an it runs.  When you move up remember that cellulose rods don't lose shielding because the flux creates a massive carbon dioxide cloud.  You can use ridiculously long arcs and motions and you still will get a sound weld.... Not so with 7018.Once you have your root in then turn your heat up about ten amps.  every machine is different.  This second pass is your hot pass.  I have seen pipeliners put in the perfect bead at 120- amps on 1/8th rod.  They use the rod like a wand.For your hot pass you are trying to melt out the root and flatten out the bead so that you have a foundation for your lo-hi passes.  If your hot pass is lumpy you will be cussing from now on.  I uses a vertical whip but it is up and in for a tight arc burning out the center then down to the right hand side forming a puddle slightly on the right.  Up to the center and in then back down to the left hand side tieing in the left side.  When you come down you just move down enough for the melting metal to drop off the end and run under the tip of your rod and fill the puddle that is underneath.  Come down too far and all you do is melt out the old crater and watch everything run.Cellulose rods are fast freeze so when you leave that puddle you will see it freezing as you burn up and center then coming down on the rhs.this motion is an upside down VEE.  The craters left and right overlap as you climb.  The hotter you run the faster you make this motion.  I have seen people move four strokes up a second and others it is like watching a waltz.....1,2,3,The faster the motion the less you put in each time and the finer the ripplesYou have plenty of wire experience so this should come easy.
Reply:You have plenty of wire experience so this should come easy.It reminds me of a pipeliner we had in a fab shop I was working in.  He had never used a wire feed before.  We set it up for him and away he went.  I hate guys like that...  he ended up using a the submerged arc gun held by hand.  You sorta pace yourself since the puddle is under the flux.  He made the best beads in the shop.  We can all play the piano but some of us are just not as good and never will be.Last edited by lotechman; 08-23-2005 at 12:31 AM.Reason: double post
Reply:To all you guys who posted...THANKYOU...Picked up some pointers I will definitley try as soon as I get the chance. Gonna go get some 1/8 6010 and 7018 to practice with at the shop and some 1/8 6011 and 7018AC to practice with at home...I know they will run a little different but I can adjust. Thanks Lotech fer the rod movement info...I like the whip and pause plus I'm going to try a weave that a fellow redneck buddy suggested and see which one works best fer me. I'm gonna practice using all this info you guys gave me as soon as I can and I'll let ya know my progress...and if it aint to bad I'll post some pics.Y'all take it easy and thanks again,Rod"Failure is not an option"
Reply:The inverted vee is what I prefer but others just go side to side and up.  The problem with that is if you have any dirt or contamination you don't have an opportunity to burn out the material above.  That upward motion seems to be popular in regions where there is a lot of repair and rework on dirty material.For the third pass you will go to your lo-hi.  I use someting like an inverted vee but now it is a "U" gently burning in above on each side and traveling across the face to the other side rather than up and down to the other side.  Some people do no vertical up but just go side to side.  With E 7018 keep a close arc and get used to distinguishing between flux and molten metal.  The flux has a more orange colour to it.  Some people panic thinking the puddle is running when actually what they are seeing is the flux flowing down and to the front of the puddle.