Is TIG that hard, or am I that stupid?

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I really hate to do this, but I am desperate.Here is some background. I have been welding (O/A, stick, MIG) on and off for 35 years. I can O/A aluminum sheet with no problem. I am building some aluminum fenders for a car and so far have MIG welded them. I have stopped because there is no way I can produce MIG aluminum welds that ascetically will work here. O/A is not an option either, because these welds will not be metal finished.I knew it was time to get a tig. So I bought (maybe a big mistake) a Lincoln PT 185. Maybe I should have got an inverter machine, but that's what I am stuck with now. I have been practicing with it for the last week (about 30 hours so far) and have yet to run a decent bead in steel and have just made a mess out of any aluminum (.050 - .250) I have touched. I didn't expect to make professional welds on aluminum right from the start, but after 30 hours of practice, I wouldn't be able to weld anything with this machine. At this point, I own a $1800 door stop When I weld both steel or AL, I get a brown deposit all over like there is no shielding gas. On aluminum I also get black soot like you get some times with MIG. On both steel and aluminum the arc is unstable and goes out unless you have it cranked up way too hot. The tungsten gets full of deposits after just and inch or so and then the arc becomes and inch wide and totally uncontrollable. I have tried every setting and gas pressure and nothing is different. So far all I have used is the 3/32 2% Thoriated tungsten that came with the machine ( I know not really for aluminum but thought it would work for practice) and have ordered new collets and holders for .040 and 1/16 and also some Zirconated tungsten for the aluminum.I know it's impossible to diagnose something like this from afar, but I really don't know anyone local that could help me with this. Is this just one of those things that takes years and years to learn to any degree (if so I am screwed) or did I just forget to flip the "screw-up switch" on the back of the machine?  Thanks for and insight.
Reply:My best guess is you've set something up a bit wrong. Try going back to the book, do not assume anything, set it up like you were a young kid on his first date, go by the numbers and REAL slow. Since you already have the required  skills, I would think it a small technical problem, (wrong gas, kinked line, ???) I went to a friends shop the other day, he was having trouble with his plasma torch, had been fuming with it for an hour or so, had taken the torch apart, etc., still the torch would not light off. I looked a the air gage, less than 40#, and the regulator was cranked ALL the way in. He assured me the air compressor was on (and had been for two hours)  I could not hear it , as it was in a different part of the shop. I asked him if there was a gage on the compressor itself, so we went to check it out. Yes, the compressor was running, we could hear it as we neared the door to  it's room. Opening the door, we were blasted by the heat generated by a compressor ruining with the tank drain valve fully open. Close the valve, walk back to his shop, plasma ... good as new.    Two  minutes, with a different set of eyes, I'm not smarter. How about you get someone who can aluminum weld to try it out, every time I ate crow, I was WAY smarter after my meal.Just my  opinion, not from a book, just from the road.Howes Welding Inc.www.howesweldinginc.com
Reply:No.  You can do it.  O/A is at least as hard...in my opinion harder than tig.  The machine you got should be just fine for that project.  Brown does generally reflect the qualtiy of gas coverage.  Here is a quick run-down of things to check...1) are you confident that the gas is PURE argon without contaminants and you are getting good flow 15-30 cfh?2) are all your hoses tight and without air leaks (alternative paths of contaminants).3) you might want to use pure tungsten, but what you have should work at least ok.4) Is it set up in AC for aluminum, right?  (just checking)5) The only thing left is to clean the hell out of the alum.  Brush with stainless steel brush till it shines or till you see a light grey dust coming off it.Then weld....My suggestion is to go back and check each connection and setting until you are confident that the machine is set up correctly and without any possible leaks in the shielding gas (focus on the gas especially) and try again.  Your machine is a nice one and should do a good job on the gauge you are welding.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:Thanks to the both of you for the reply. I'll go back tomorrow and re-check everything.I am sure the gas is argon unless AirGas gave me two bad tanks. Which is very possible with those morons, sense they sold me an empty mig tank a few months ago and I thought my gages had gone bad!I'll try different a tungsten but I just guessed that it would not make the difference between not working at all and working just fine.Aluminum is in A/C mode and I have tried all the cleaning settings from auto to full clean and full penetrate. Have also tried all the pulse settings from no pulse to all the way up. Haven't bothered with the post flow too much, as I wasn't worried about finishing the weld sense by then it was just a mess. Besides, I have already gone through one tank just fooling around.I have cleaned the aluminum with acetone and SS wire brushed the hell out of it. Both sides. All the pieces I have practiced on have been clean stock not oily crap.I am not going to let this beat me. I have seen photos of welds that beginner welders have done on aluminum that I should be able to do with no problem. At this point, I'd be happy with that.Thanks again for taking the time to reply and I'll keep you informed.
Reply:I like the 2% thoriated tungsten for steel especially but also aluminum.  In steel you want a sharp point and dc straight polarity.  In aluminum you want a ball on the end of the tungsten.  An easy way to get the ball is to set your machine on dc positive electrode.  Start an arc and use enough heat to form a small ball on the end of the tungsten.  Now to weld the aluminum, set the machine on ac continuous high frequency.  Use a cup with about 1/2 inch dia. and have your tungsten sticking out about 1/8th of an inch.  Make sure you have pure argon flowing at about 25 cubic feet per hour.  Stay close to your material, about 1/8 of an inch and start an arc and gradually increase your heat until you get a puddle, then add a little filler rod.  I usually use 5356.  Take it slow and easy.  Most of the time I like the 3/32 tungsten.
Reply:Just had an additional thought! NO anodized aluminum! Sometimes if your getting hardware store  stock or try using storm windows, etc. for practice pieces they are anodized. If I must weld something like this, I grind all this coating off beyond where the weld will extend to. If you miss a section it will let you know, you will suddenly loose your ability to weld!  Do not be fooled by the color, you have to look close, anodizing does come in many colors that show up as obvious, but the more natural or "silver" of them sometimes fools people. Do a check by grinding the area, if you see sparks and or are able to notice big a difference between where you have and haven't ground, you most likely have an anodized piece. Another quick test, use a nail, scribe, or a screwdriver to try an scratch the surface,  plain aluminum is soft and will scratch easily, anodized has a very hard, very thin, top layer. Keep us informed!Just my  opinion, not from a book, just from the road.Howes Welding Inc.www.howesweldinginc.com
Reply:I agree with the others above, if you can O/A then TIG is something you can accomplish. I would start on the steel first, since i will be easier and less critical of cleanliness etc. If you can't get the steel to fuse for you then there maybe a problem with the machine?Millermatic 251Century 180 migSpectrum 625 Syncrowave 250DX
Reply:PAULG  where are you located? maybe someone on this site is close to you and could come help you outjust some basics for alum tiga/ccontinuous high freq/ make sure it is ona/c balance/ i run about 70 / or 7 on the dialpure argonclean tungsten, if it is the least bit contaminated you are screwedaluminum must also be very clean ( sounds like you did that )Last edited by elderthewelder; 02-10-2006 at 11:47 AM.
Reply:elderthewelder thanks for the tips. And thanks to all for your help. I am going to ruin some more metal this weekend and see if I can get this sorted out.Oh and I am in Austin,Tx.
Reply:Just wanted to thank everyone for their input on my problem. Now I do feel stupid. At the suggestion of many, I exchanged my tank at a different place Saturday. I don't know what was in the old tank that said "Argon" but as soon as I lit an arc I knew the problem was fixed. The arc was stable and controllable.My first try I laid down a bead on a fillet joint on 1/8 aluminum that altough was not perfect, was much better than I had imagined I would do right from the start. I guess all those hours of practice with crappy gas, makes you focus real hard Again thanks to all who responded, and my new PT 185 has now been replaced by a brick as a new door stop.
Reply:When you drove your first car/truck did you do it by yourself ?I don't mean to upset anyone, but welding is a trade that needs to be shown to the apprentice from the journeymanThanksLast edited by MetalSculptor; 02-12-2006 at 08:33 PM.
Reply:MetalSculptor,You are obusely a jack-off who sits in front of the computer with his hand down his pants relieving himself of his metalforming fustratrions.That's terribly sad. But I have good news for you. Please contact Phil Weaver at 206-836-9564. He is a licensed metalforming sex therapist. I thought I was a lost cause, but after many sessions with Phil, I have been cured of my obsession to post totally assine posts to logical questions. Phil has save my metalworking life. Before Phil, I would sit at the computer posting the same response to every post weather it made sense or not. Always my right hand down my pants to "make myself feel good".MetalSculptor I know what your going through. It's tough. Please, call Phil and whatever you do, please get your hand outta your pants, that won't help anything.
Reply:Let's see, I live in San Diego in a house I bought with money earned from welding.I just paid cash for a New Honda 2006 CRF450 Motocross Bike I bought with money earned from welding.That I can go ride in the warm climates in Southern California year roundAnd I am really glad I left The Farming communities of the mid west and east coast of the USA to excell in welding in Southern California.Let's agree, the California welder is the best and most productive for the trades in the USA.  I don't make car payments, that's for lazy people, I put $1,500.00/month into a retirement fund. I am the best fabricator/welder you will ever meet.  Come the San Diego and let me show you why I am the best in my field. I have no Pension, that dies when you do.Last edited by MetalSculptor; 02-13-2006 at 10:34 PM.
Reply:you are a legend in your own mind.  I salute you!
Reply:MetalSculptor,Who taught YOU?Last edited by smithboy; 02-14-2006 at 09:49 AM.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:Paul, I had full confidence in you. As for The Metal Sculpter, living in California is not a plus in my book.Millermatic 251Century 180 migSpectrum 625 Syncrowave 250DX
Reply:Smithboy High School Grad Wanabe Professional ?/Educated Welder/Fabricator/Designer/Businessman/Investor/EmployerI was taught and certified by certified journeymen level welders for the process needed to certify for the apropriate application of TIG, MIG, GAS, STICK, PLASMA Welding/Cutting, Electron Beam Welding, along with My Mecahnical Engineering Degree from RIT in Rochester, NY, Engineering Design, Manage a group of fabricators and welders in a 35 man jobshop building components for shipyard, building structures and Aerospace applications, Layout, Blueprint Reading, Computer Design, ("Solid Works" is a Great Computer Design Program). My Welding Knowledge has given my am income level to live in San Diego, California.  I also invest my money in properties for an even greater return on base capital.  So when I need to buy a $7,800.00 machine that pays for itself in 90 days to perforn a welding job, I Do It!   I can also help the new welder with real world data that will help you build you Kingdom of knowledge and wealth.Last edited by MetalSculptor; 02-14-2006 at 11:18 PM.
Reply:ProEngineer and ProMechanica are better :P
Reply:Originally Posted by MetalSculptorI am the best fabricator/welder you will ever meet.  Come the San Diego and let me show you why I am the best in my field.
Reply:Hey MetalSculpter, I'm only the second best welder around................everyone else is the best...
Reply:and he still dont post pic's of his weldsChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:I have only a few comments to make on your post, MS. First, that was quite a response for such a short question. I am impressed.Second, am I a "wannabe"? Absolutely, yes. I wannabe good looking, thinner, smarter, a better parent, a good person, helpful to my friends, kind to strangers, a better economist, a professional NBA forward, an Olympic downhill skier, an effective baseball coach, an airplane pilot (if I can get over my fear of heights), the life of the party, a terrific guitar player, an average mandolin player, a movie director, a gentleman farmer, a better speller, a kung fu master, a snappy dresser and yes...a better weldor. Like I have already said in multiple posts earlier, I am not a professional weldor...I think for a living. My coffee that is getting cold on my desk was paid for ($1.39) with money generated from me just sitting here thinking. I paid cash for that coffee, though sometimes, admitedly I use a credit card...guess I am lazy. I am actually getting paid money to think and write what I think, pretty good money...more that I ever imagined I would make doing anything, in fact. Who would have thunk!? I am sure it's nowhere near what you make...but, my stuff is all paid for also...everything, right down to the coffee on my desk...I take that back, my gas bill was due yesterday and I forgot to do the online pay thingie. Crap! Hang on a minute...Ok, I'm back...where was I??? wannabe, right.but, you are also a "wannabe". You wannabe respected, admired, envied, maybe worshiped, viewed as the purveyor of all wisdom, a teenager again, able to strike fear into the hearts of men (I mean weldors), and on and on. Interestingly, I isn't quite working out that way....hmmm. I guess you need a bigger welder, more money, another house or two in the Hamptons, a faster dirt bike, a private jet, another certification (maybe nuclear fusion welding NFW, I hear it's all the rage in Euorpe this season), an exhibit at the Smithsonian, a federal highway named after you, women to swoon at the mention of your name, welding groupies, and your own religion. Maybe these would make things all better...or not .Thirdly, I was always taught to respect age, wisdom, and character...mainly because they all generally take time to acquire and are among the most valued things a man (or woman) can attain. When I look at your profile, I see that you are 48 years old. Wow, 48. Based on the way you present yourself on this site, I would have guessed much, MUCH younger. You can take that as a compliment, if you like, and attribute it to your youthful vitality. I also would have expected an accomplished artist, as you most certianly must be to earn enough to pay cash for everything, to have a more, shall we say, artistic manner of writing. I know quite a few artists (sculptors of the metal and general persuasion, painters, mixed media, etc.), and each and every one, successful and unsuccessful alike, are very expressive...even the ones who didn't double major in Art and English lit write and talk like they are at the opening of a new art show all the time. Interesting...maybe art only pays the bills and nothing more...or does it?A $7,800 welder pays for itself in 90 days.  That's $31,633.33 per year.  Something is a bit off here...I am not sure what.  About your retirement and investments.  Diversification is the word of the day.  You are smart to invest in different stuff.  You never want your retirement to reside all in the same investment.  I do this also.  As for real estate, you might want to check about the borrowing money thing.  Last I heard, borrowing money to invest in rental properties is key to maximizing the return per dollar invested.  You can offset other income with paper losses and earn money through both appreciation and rent.  If you think of it from an interest point of view...the less you invest in a property of a given cash flow, the greater the return, the higher the equivalent interest rate.  That's called "leverage".  I dabble in real estate myself as a passive partner (no responsibilities, just risk and income), but I am sure not to the extent that you do.The reason I asked who taught you was to find out where one might go to get the qualtiy education that you got. It is also interesting that you got your education on the east coast, but you say all the best most productive weldors are located smack in the middle of Sunny San Diego and then ask for agreement. Would your teachers agree? I guess if you want to learn welding, California ain't the place to go afterall...it's Rochester, NY. For work, go to San Diego. That's good info for folks here to have. Here is a link to the best welding school in the country...maybe world.http://www.rit.edu/As I have said earlier, I am not questioning your ability. You can probably weld rings around me. I know my skill level. In fact, based on what I have read so far, you are probably better looking, earn more, live in a more expensive house, drive a nicer car/truck, eat at nicer restaurants, wear nicer clothes, have a bigger welder, ride a better bike, have nicer weather than I could ever imagine.  California must be paradise for weldors.  I, on the other hand, am just a simple man, unworthy of your time...by the way...why do you even write anything here? You have better things to do, right?  Money to make...students to inspire...Bikes to ride...Sunsets to enjoy...weather to talk about (Sunny, 72 degrees, back you you, Bob). I am guessing you are not back to claim the beer I offered earlier...I didn't think so. Too bad.  By the way...my coffee is cold now and I have wasted 30 minutes that I could have wasted some other way, so it's time to walk back and get another cup and maybe some lunch...and I'm packing the cash to pay for it.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:PaulG,Sorry for posting the above to your thread.  I should have trimmed and edited, I see, but, hey, nobody's perfect...least of all me.  I am glad to see that you have overcome that little pitfall.  Someone, not that long ago, had a similar problem and found out that their torch hose had a small leak that was sucking in air.  Sometimes stuff like that is tough to find and you just have to go through the elimination process until you do.  Happy welding.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:smithboy great postChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:MetalSculptor,I was born in San Francisco (1954). I grew up in LA (Covina) (1956-1967). Lived in San Diego 1975-76. California was a friend of mine. You sir, are no California.(TX Sentor Loyd Benson 1988)I am the best fabricator/welder you will ever meet. says who? better watch what you type there IS always someone better that youmaybe memaybe not...zap!
Reply:Someone neads to taste some humble pie.  Smithboy, ^5 good posts.  I agree, there is always someone better, however we can all strive to be the best.  But assuming a person is the BEST.... is setting oneself for failure.  It means you have self determined that there is nothing else to learn, and you know it all allready.  If you aren't learning and growing, then your forgetting and being left behind. You have lost any/all respect I ever could have had for you Metal Sculptor, and I rarely say or feel in such way about folks.  Good luck in your endeavors, and I hope that humble pie gets sent your way soon.  Brian Lee  Sparkeee27  p.s.  good thread all else considered
Reply:I for one know that I'll never ever be a gun at all the proccesses, there is just to many of them, with more being developed all the time. But if you can master six or eight and be able to do a passable job on another six or eight in my book that makes you a pretty good welder. It would take three life times to be able to do the lot! So that means MS must be about 80 yaers old and been welding since he was two to be the master at the lot!!!!So how about a list of tickets you've held MetalSculptor????  THAT'S the proof of the pudding................Stephen