Still plays with blocks... Replacing steel mounting blocks

admin

This forklift axle is supported by two blocks which serve as the mount and tipper/pivot/oscillator/whatever:Attachment 25350I forgot the dime, but the blocks measure about 4" x 4" x 2" and are badly worn. I guess the   non-metallic "lifetime, maintenance free" bushings - aren't. Now the bushings AND blocks need to be replaced. The plan is to go with  longer blocks, and greaseable steel bearings. The old blocks will be cut off, and the replacements welded in their place.So for some 4" steel... a visit to Thrifty Steel Supply was in order:Attachment 25351This select piece looked like it had an easy first life, just sitting in concrete.  I field dressed it - in other words: Torch cut a manageable length, and removed some of the extras.Attachment 25352Back at the shop I cleaned the piece up a bit with a grinder to be sure it would rest square in the band-saw. Sawed the torched end off clean. Then sawed two 4" blocks off:Attachment 25353Next we need some holes, but first we better source the bushings.I'll post progress then. Last edited by denrep; 10-19-2010 at 11:37 PM.
Reply:Very interesting Denrep...Miller Thunderbolt 225Millermatic 130 XPLincoln HD 100 Forney C-5bt Arc welderPlasma Cutter Gianteach Cut40ACent Machinery Bandsaw Cent Machinery 16Speed Drill PressChicago Electric 130amp tig/90 ArcHobart 190 Mig spoolgun ready
Reply:Do we need any st***ing bushings?? City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Depends on the owners PM program.  If he/she is willing to crawl under/into/on top of the hinge to grease it,  it might.Like materials love to tear each other to bits.  Steel on steel is a disaster.  Bushings are pretty much like the sacrificial anode in the water heater.  The bushing wears before the more expensive shaft wears.  IF YOU KEEP UP WITH IT.  And I can't stress that enough.I deal with non lube bearings, and other non lube stuff, all the time.  It works great until the seal wears out, and the grease becomes contaminated, or just goes away.  If the thing was designed properly with a lubed bearing, the contaminants are forced out every time grease is forced into the fitting.My seed drill, a crappy example, has a front wheel assy. that is made out of bent 1 1/2 cold roll.  The pivot end is a greasable assembly.  Every year, when I get ready to use the drill,  I grease it.  WATER comes out.  The grease saves my butt every year.  Corrosion is kept to a minimum.I suppose it's all about longevity.But, Hell, y'all know that better than I do.  I'm probably preachin' to the choir."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Farmersam, if you grease it and water comes out, you should have greased it sooner.Nice denrep, I have done a few of those, but used factory supplied blocks with bushings in them.  The machine will drive a LOT better with a tight axle.MOST of those did have grease fittings.  Clark has blocks with rubber in them.  How many times have you done the bellcrank?Nice work, Thanks for the memories.......David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:You're right Dave.  The thing gets used 3 days a year, and I sort of overlook it until I need it.I'll bet most of the damage to equipment here is due to sittin' out in the weather, not bein' torm up in the field.  Water plays hell with everything.What I need is a nice equipment shedI do have a plan though, I just hope I can get around to it."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:As long as I have been involved in agriculture,  I will never undestand why a farmer may have 2 million dollars in equipment and have a 10,000 dollars worth of shed to contain it.It's just stupid.  Sorry farmer Samm.  It doesn't look like you have quite made it to the million mark yet but a shelter is the best investment a farmer can make.In regards to the fork lift,  It may be steel on steel because of extreme pressures on the axle may deform brass or bronze too easily.The springless design of a solid axle puts quite a shock load on that area. I too have worked on hinge pins on axles.  You might want to think about machining a solid steel bushing.Last edited by lugweld; 11-20-2008 at 09:34 AM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Hmmmm, 2 inch diameter pin and a 2.5 inch diameter hole.  Something might not be right there boys.  Actual rolling element bearings (ball, roller, needle) probably aren't able to handle the slow rotational speed and the high impact loadings without brinnelling.  Rotating bearings actual need to kind of rotate to do their job properly.So heavy-duty bushings might be the way to go.  Greasable heavy-duty bushings.  I don't know if bronze bushings to hold up to the impact/pounding without distorting, so maybe a hardened steel greasable bushing.  Or maybe a carbon-fiber filament wound bushing, or other heavy-duty non-metallic bushing, and it has to be checked and replaced periodically as a 'sacrificial' element.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:A brass or bronze bushing with a tight fit will distribute the load best.  A grease fitting will also help as long as it gets used.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:high shock and heavy loads are what bronze bushings are made for. steel to steel wont hold up nearly as well--especially if both are soft.
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRise...So heavy-duty bushings might be the way to go.  Greasable heavy-duty bushings.  I don't know if bronze bushings to hold up to the impact/pounding without distorting, so maybe a hardened steel greasable bushing....
Reply:Never would have thought that case hardened against case hardened would work.  It's good to know.  I hope I'm right in the deal here.... it is case hardened?  Wouldn't ask if I didn't want to know.So you just put the grease to it and wait to wear into the softer metal underneath?  If it takes 20 years that's a good deal.Lemme know if I have the right take on this.  It might be important in some upgrades I have to do."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:For low speed and high load; yes, seems like hard steel against hard steel, wears the best - with grease.Without grease - probably the non-metallic  "spun" or "filament" bushings, as Moonrise mentioned.Good luck
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepFor low speed and high load; yes, seems like hard steel against hard steel, wears the best - with grease.Without grease - probably the non-metallic  "spun" or "filament" bushings, as Moonrise mentioned.Good luck
Reply:And thanks Moonrise.  Gotta keep the dummy meter runnin' when I'm around."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammDenrep Consulting is keeping the wheels of American Agriculture greazzed, and in the grooove
Reply:Originally Posted by TractapacAnd, Denrep Ingenuity Inc. keeps impressing with his versatile utilization of various tools, with an excellent example here of what can be done with a porta power and chain. Ably aided and abetted by Alfred, of course.
Reply:To get 'picky', your mounting block looks undersized.Seriously, not joking.  The 'meat' on the wall of the mounting block at the thinnest part should be about the same thickness as the diameter of the shaft/rod for high load conditions, really high loads may call for 3x wall thickness as the shaft/rod diameter.  Otherwise that thin part of the mounting block tends to deform under the high load and turns into a (temporary) oval instead of a nice circle.  That sets up not nice load wave conditions into the block (fatigue multiplier and stress risers) and also doesn't let the load be distributed across an area of a half circle but instead reduces the load-resisting area and at worst-case conditions the loading approaches a line condition.  Detailed engineering analysis, actual loads, and material choices may change specific design details.Bronze bushing for a steel shaft for low/moderate loads works fine.  Under high loads and/or impact conditions, the bronze deforms.Low rotational speed and high loads, GREASED hard steel bushings and medium-to-hard steel shaft works.  The grease forms a film (maybe a thou thick) that rides between the two steel parts and doesn't let the steel actually rub on the steel.  Too high a load (steady or impact) and the films fails and the steel touches the steel.  Touch isn't too bad, touch and rotate slowly is worse, touch and rotate slowly with dust/dirt/grit and impact is not good at all.  Touch and oscillate/vibrate back and forth with no real rotation and impact and dust/dirt/grit is really not good at all.Soft steel on soft steel with no grease quickly chews up the steel.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Moonrise,Apparently the mfg doesn't know this.  Many fork trucks have no where near the spec you specified.  Most of the loading is vertically up.  There should be plenty of "meat" to secure this direction.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by TractapacAnd, Denrep Ingenuity Inc. keeps impressing with his versatile utilization of various tools, with an excellent example here of what can be done with a porta power and chain. Ably aided and abetted by Alfred, of course.
Reply:Lugweld, Originally Posted by MoonRise... Detailed engineering analysis, actual loads, and material choices may change specific design details.
Reply:I was always taught to run hard steel in cast iron.  I have had to cut apart several pieces of machinery that were steel rotating in steel and got galled all to hell.If your going to run steel in steel make damn sure someone is going to keep LOTS of grease in thereVantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:Thanks for all the observations.Moonrise - There were some practical limits on increasing the block size; things can almost always be made bigger and better but a compromise has to be drawn somewhere. It may not be clear in the pictures, but the replacement block and bearing surface is about 150% longer than the original. But there are even arguments against having too much bearing surface. Shaft deflection associated with long bearings can cause the same type of concentrated loads you described. I guess you can't win.As far as that 3X formula. Maybe that's for lighter applications? I've never seen anything close to that ratio of pin size  to wall thickness on a heavy connection. I can't think of anything even close; not links on large presses, not even the massive wheel driving rods of a steam locomotive. I'd be curious to see a large connection built to those specs.Lugweld - Your right. That's where the load is and that's why it can't be made larger. A thicker wall would raise the truck.Dualie - There are all sorts of combinations. But in construction equipment, when there is no compromise for price or (lack of) lubrication, hard steel on hard steel seems to be the standard for high-load, low-speed connections. One odd phenomena is how brass or bronze will wear out a mating part made of hard steel.Good Luck
Reply:Brass/bronze on steel with a 'little' dust/dirt/grit is pretty much a lap on the hard steel.  The grit embeds in the (soft) brass/bronze, and then that grit just grinds away at the hard steel.denrep,Yup, there are usually all sorts of trade-offs and compromises.  Waiting to see how the whole rebuild comes out.  You usually have pictures and 'interesting' commentary.Still waiting for more of those auto-show 'headlight' pictures.    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:i tend to look towards caterpillar.whatever they use for pins and bushings on 375 excavators is good enough for meinsert thoughtful quote from someone else2000 Thermal Arc 300GTSW 3.5 hours1946 Monarch 20 x 54 Lathe1998 Supermax 10x54 Mill2004 Haco Atlantic 1/2" Capacity Lasernot mine but i get to play with itI grew up in the heavy equipment and tractor business.  I have seen my share of steel on steel factory bushings.  Johnny Popper comes to mind on their yellow stuff.  So does anything in a tractor frontend pivot that I have seen.  No bronze there that I remember. Just steel bushings and shims.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Most tracked Cat front end loads had no bushings!Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldI grew up in the heavy equipment and tractor business.  I have seen my share of steel on steel factory bushings.  Johnny Popper comes to mind on their yellow stuff.  So does anything in a tractor frontend pivot that I have seen.  No bronze there that I remember. Just steel bushings and shims.
Reply:Leave it to Oliver...And farmersamm,  after surveying all 7 or 8 Olivers this past weekend that my father has and remembering a few that he has had before,  all of their front bushings WERE SHOT.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Mine is worn out too.  Otherwise wouldn't have the parts out in the shop.  (that was a chilly trip out there in the cold).  It's an old tired tractor.I gotta feelin' that the battery/digital camera dudes oughta advertise on this site  We make 'em wealthy"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I'd rather have a tired Ollie, than a rebuilt John Deere from that era.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:I've been lucky, and had good service from it.  Been a good machine."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/