Repairing old Hand plane

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This will probably not be my first project, but it is one I do want to do eventually. I have an old Stanley #5 Jack plane. It was severely abused in another life and consequently it has a piece of the side body broken off and a crack that runs into the mouth. I make the assumption that the material is cast iron. I can't imagine what else it would be, but how do I tell for sure? Secondly, I also assume that I will have to braze it rather than weld it, but I am not necessarily convinced. Lastly, do I have to enlarge the crack for it to fill, or can I somehow 'flow' into it with some process?As I said, I have several other learning exercises to do before I take on this beast, but I figure this particular one is not going to be best learned by trial and error. I forgot to mention, I only have O/A setup.
Reply:post some fotos.....
Reply:lets see Attached Images
Reply:Your wish is my command Attached Images
Reply:It is fairly clear to see in the first image that a large chunk of material was broken out. That is sad, as I didn't get that piece. It is also fairly clear to see in that one and the next the long clean vertical crack, and on th elast in the upper right hand corner of the mouth, you can see where the crack goes all the way through.You can also see from the bottom that the person that had this last was not th eleast bit concerned about planing right over nails or other very hard objects as evidenced by the two parallel deep scratches running skew to the mouth. This piece, by rights is trash heap worthy. It is not particularly valuable, nor is it collectable, but for $5 it is a 'challenge' piece. I know if I can repair the crack, I can tune it to a very usable piece. I am not sure if I can fill in the missing chunk, but if that were possible it would be even more interesting. But not 100% necessary to its usefulness.
Reply:I downloaded a pdf.doc to help you determine the base metal before you decide the welding process. Attached ImagesSpark_Testing_for_Mystery_Metals.pdf (52.3 KB, 167 views)Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.                                         -Cree Indian ProverbSA 200 LincolnVictor Torches
Reply:Every old Stanley I've seen was cast iron and the top unmachined surface has always show the grain from the mold, if not covered by overly-thick red paint.If I were repairing that one for use, I'd make a new side piece out of steel, maybe even tapering it from top-to-bottom to match the original contour, at least at the edges. I'd try to get the fit very close, leaving little to no gap. Since steel expands more than CI, this would require more care not to overheat the whole piece when doing the joining.  I'd probably use silver solder rather than bronze, particularly for the crack where the material needs to 'wick' in. I might even look at the various different alloys to see if another would be better  here than the 45% stuff I usually use.
Reply:Ooopf, after seeing that picture, I'd say that your time would be much better served searching the flea markets for a $5 plane that's still in one piece.  Oh, and do you even have the iron, chip breaker, and cap iron?  Is that cap iron screw rusted to death?Anyway it is cast iron, and I suspect that when you heat one side to braze the crack, it will break the other side.  If you manage to get the crack brazed, and manage to get a piece of steel to fill the missing gap (which will cause innumerable other issues because steel expands and contracts with heat at a different rate than iron; but if you don't, it will certainly break very soon), you'd still have to grind the surface smooth, and that's not really possible with a nickel brazed crack.  You'll always end up with a wavy texture, because the nickel will not grind like the iron (kind of how a hard glueline in wood stands out after sanding).Best of luck to you, but I would sooner spend my time tuning up this new one from Sears, that's on sale today for $40:http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...92000P?prdNo=2Maybe make a wooden handle and knob for it.  That would be a worthy project.I've restored my share of antique planes (I don't think I'd trade my Dunlap jointer for a Lie Nielsen), but this one's just way to far gone.
Reply:All the parts are there and it is functional and 'tuneable'.  I have actually brought worse ones back from the dead (except for the body crack). I figured the $5 was worth it just for the parts alone even if I tossed the body. I have seen body only ones on eBay from time to time. But this seemed like a good learning project for welding. People certainly fix all manner of things with a weld. Are you suggesting that this particular item is not fixable? It is a tight well fitting crack that seemed like a wonderful opportunity for a 'practical' exercise. I know I will get bored and/or irritated running beads on a scrap piece of angle, and doing laps and T's and so on. This at least would be something that once done will be provable as being done, because it will either work, or not I have many planes, mostly stanley or bailey. Some that are of collectible condition and others that are simply usable. I am not fixing this because I need to use it, I think I have 2 or 3 other #5's anyway. Funny thing, I have never even touched a LN plane, but I enjoy my Stanleys/Baileys. I recently got a really nice #26 transitional and pair of #78 rabbet's that I can't wait to play with. I have only 1 dunlap (a #4) and though it is is beautiful condition, I have never gotten it to work quite right.
Reply:Fixable?  Possible, but not easy.Worth it to fix?  Probably not.Fix it just for the challenge?  Maybe.I'd say, step one is remove all removable parts.  Then maybe do an electrolytic rust removal on the plane body and see just how bad things are.  After that, maybe do a preliminary lapping of the sole and see just how much meat you have left after all that flattening (past the scratches and the rust pits).Then, and only then, maybe think about how to repair the crack and the missing chunk from the side of the body.Of course, for all that work up to that point, you might be able to MAKE a welded-up replacement steel plane body.   A flat piece of steel for the sole, and then weld on (carefully) two side plates with desired swoopy curves for style.  Put on attachment hardware as desired for the tote, knob and frog,, cut the slot for the mouth, lap sole flat and sides at 90 deg to sole.And you're still missing the blade/iron, the chip breaker aka cap iron, and the lever cap.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Oh, sure, $5 for the parts is well worth it.  A new iron goes for well more.The problem is that welding isn't like dripping some CA glue into a crack.You can get silver solder to flow into a clean joint, with flux.  But a crack is a different story.  Any oils that worked their way into there will carbonize when heated, which will prevent the silver from flowing in.  Any oxidation that occurred in there will do the same thing, and there's no way to clean it out without opening it up.  The usual practice is to grind the crack open into a V shaped notch, and weld with nickel rod (arc welding is actually preferred here, because of a lower heat input, but O/A has been used by many with success).  Heating up one side of the casting (from the weld) will cause it to expand and push apart.  That may crack the other side.  As the weld cools, it will contract and pull together.  That may also crack the other side (or open up any other invisible cracks that you didn't notice before).  There are people here who have years of experience repairing cast iron (I am not one of them, but I have done a few successful repairs), and I wouldn't expect more than a 50% success rate on something like this, when the "best" are working on it.  Even then, it'll look like someone dropped a vase, and stuck it back together with silly putty.I'm not saying it's not worth practicing on; that's almost always a worthwhile task.  Just don't feel bad if the casting ends up in the junk heap after a few hours of work.  I don't want to discourage someone just starting out, but you should take a look around here and read up on people's repairs of cast iron.  It comes up pretty often, because a successful repair like that isn't something that happens every day.
Reply:there's much to be learned by trying
Reply:Originally Posted by rlitmanOh, sure, $5 for the parts is well worth it.  A new iron goes for well more.The problem is that welding isn't like dripping some CA glue into a crack.You can get silver solder to flow into a clean joint, with flux.  But a crack is a different story.  Any oils that worked their way into there will carbonize when heated, which will prevent the silver from flowing in.  Any oxidation that occurred in there will do the same thing, and there's no way to clean it out without opening it up.  The usual practice is to grind the crack open into a V shaped notch, and weld with nickel rod (arc welding is actually preferred here, because of a lower heat input, but O/A has been used by many with success).  Heating up one side of the casting (from the weld) will cause it to expand and push apart.  That may crack the other side.  As the weld cools, it will contract and pull together.  That may also crack the other side (or open up any other invisible cracks that you didn't notice before).  There are people here who have years of experience repairing cast iron (I am not one of them, but I have done a few successful repairs), and I wouldn't expect more than a 50% success rate on something like this, when the "best" are working on it.  Even then, it'll look like someone dropped a vase, and stuck it back together with silly putty.I'm not saying it's not worth practicing on; that's almost always a worthwhile task.  Just don't feel bad if the casting ends up in the junk heap after a few hours of work.  I don't want to discourage someone just starting out, but you should take a look around here and read up on people's repairs of cast iron.  It comes up pretty often, because a successful repair like that isn't something that happens every day.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbeadthere's much to be learned by trying
Reply:Just for clarification, I do have all the parts. I just wasn't sure they needed to be in the picture  In the worst case scenario, I will simply keep the center parts, and attach to a hardwood board and create a makeshift #26 something like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...nter_plane.jpgInitially, I had simply considered soldering this. I considered grinding out some area within and without the crack and using JB Weld. The second solution was to simply screw a plate to it. It will work and be usable as long as I can stabilize the crack. I only figured that since I now have a working O/A setup I could give that a shot, figuring what the hell. The rest of the tuning and restoration is a no-brainer. It is mostly grunt work, and as I said before, other than the crack, this is far from the worst one I have done. The rust is mostly light surface rust and I can see no pitting. What you are seeing is more 'dirt' than rust. The advise I was looking for was more in the line of "what is the technique?" than "should I try to do this?" or maybe "Is it possible to weld this material, and what fill should I use?" rather than "Is it worth trying to repair an item that only costs $40 new?"I realize I am brand spanking new here, and I appreciate all the responses so far. I just don't want to be the reason a flame war gets started over the reasonableness of my poor choices I assume this is cast iron, and since I have less than the scrap weight invested in it I will not feel bad about destroying it because I lack the necessary skills to accomplish the task. I will however, feel really bad if I ruin it because I was stupid and didn't ask what is the proper procedure and materials. I am pretty sure that whatever the procedure it is well beyond my current skill set. But eventually, I will give it a try, I am just trying to get a little preparation out of the way first. I also need to come up with some exercises to get my hands back, running a bead , and making the basic joints, with and without fill and so forth. I am just not looking forward to those, since throwaway work seems wasteful and honestly boring to me  I will do it, because that is how I learned the first time, and I don't have a better strategy for doing it again than that, so expect some more dumb questions, only dumb questions a little closer to my skill level
Reply:huh? what is this?
Reply:OK, fair enough explanation.As to oil and grease, sure it isn't a metal-working tool (usually  ), but it is an OLD tool with most likely at least -some- oil/dirt/rust/crud in the crack.  Just the nature of old stuff, it's dirty.  IMHO, Nope on soldering it.  Nope on JB-Weld.  Neither is really strong enough in a crack.Possible brazing, -if- you can make SURE that the crack is clean all the way through (torque the frog or otherwise apply a load/stress just enough to the body of the plane to SLIGHTY spread the crack a bit.  Apply too much torque/load and you'll probably crack right across the opposite side by the mouth and turn that plane into a 'custom' bull-nose or chisel-plane #5.  Possible on welding with some nickle rod.Either brazing or welding, I'd suggest to do it 'hot' (hotter with welding than brazing).  Hot as in 'pre-heat it up smoothly in a forge or controlled fire/heater, not blast it with a torch', then braze or weld, then return to heat/forge/oven and let cool s-l-o-w-l-y (as in overnight or 24 hours to go from hot back to room temperature).  Oh, there may be some jigging or fixturing needed, depending on how involved you want to get with the fix.  As to the missing side-plate chunk,  find another $5 beater with everything shot except for the left curved side plate and use that for 'parts'.  Cut/grind/file the fixer and the donor part to match and then braze or weld back together.  Could be tricky if you braze the crack and braze the replacement side plate, as that is a big area and a little one right next to one another that will get hot enough for the brazing filler to melt and flow.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRise turn that plane into a 'custom' bull-nose or chisel-plane #5.
Reply:Funny, I already through about removing more of that side and calling it a rabbet plane
Reply:Hmmm, wait a minute there.If you chop a #5 in half, do you end up with a #2-1/2?        The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Pretty close. The #5 is 14" long and the #2 smoother is 7" but it is not bull nosed by any description I have never seen a #2 in real life, but I can't come up with a way to cut the front off of a 5 to get a 2, but you could cut the back off of it