Welding 6463 T-6 Anodized

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Hey guys to start off thanks for the help I did my first welds on 6061 they turned out ok  Now I tried to weld 6463 holy crap what I problem for me. Well After speaking with Miller I got the settings right . My question is can you weld 6061 to 6463 ? If so what is the right setup?Thanks,John
Reply:i would guess so..but the annodization is the biggest problem..its gotta go!welding over annodized anything is a  ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Thanks ZAP I know the guys making tuna towers fro boat use this stuff all the time.  Would you have any idea on the setup needed?Thanks,John
Reply:Short answer, I would say yes, these two alloys can be welded together, however, since 6061 is well known to be crack prone if welded without added filler, generally 4043 or 5356, you should absolutely use one of these fillers.Longer answer, if you need full T-6 strength, you will have to heat treat after welding and use 4043 to make the weld heat treatable.  If you will not heat treat after welding, use 5356 to give the best as welded strength.  The heat affected zone (HAZ) of the parent metal will be annealed to some degree by welding, so it will be softer than the surrounding base metal.Here's a link giving chemistry and properties of aluminum and most other alloys.http://www.matweb.com/search/GetSubcat.aspI'm not an aluminum metallurgist, but to me it looks like 6463 is slightly less alloyed overall than 6061.  They refer to 6463 as AlMg0.7Si and 6061 as AlMg1SiCu, kind of indicating they are in the same family except 6061 is higher in Silicon, and Copper is a deliberate controlled additive.  Both alloys are precipitation hardened,  which means it is first solution annealed at around 970 F to evenly "dissolve" and distribute all the alloying elements in solution, and then it is aged at around 350 F in order to precipitate out hard alloy particles throughout the matrix to strengthen the aluminum.  Overheating, such as from welding, will cause the precipitates to grow bigger and strength and hardness will be reduced.
Reply:Originally Posted by pulserShort answer, I would say yes, these two alloys can be welded together, however, since 6061 is well known to be crack prone if welded without added filler, generally 4043 or 5356, you should absolutely use one of these fillers.Longer answer, if you need full T-6 strength, you will have to heat treat after welding and use 4043 to make the weld heat treatable.  If you will not heat treat after welding, use 5356 to give the best as welded strength.  The heat affected zone (HAZ) of the parent metal will be annealed to some degree by welding, so it will be softer than the surrounding base metal.Here's a link giving chemistry and properties of aluminum and most other alloys.http://www.matweb.com/search/GetSubcat.aspI'm not an aluminum metallurgist, but to me it looks like 6463 is slightly less alloyed overall than 6061.  They refer to 6463 as AlMg0.7Si and 6061 as AlMg1SiCu, kind of indicating they are in the same family except 6061 is higher in Silicon, and Copper is a deliberate controlled additive.  Both alloys are precipitation hardened,  which means it is first solution annealed at around 970 F to evenly "dissolve" and distribute all the alloying elements in solution, and then it is aged at around 350 F in order to precipitate out hard alloy particles throughout the matrix to strengthen the aluminum.  Overheating, such as from welding, will cause the precipitates to grow bigger and strength and hardness will be reduced.
Reply:Originally Posted by riley mcmillanAfter welding the 6061 T6 with 4043 filler, are you saying that the filler will gain in strength along with the heat affected zone of the 6061 after post heat treatment?  In other words the 4043 is heat treatable?
Reply:The company I work for welds anodized aluminum all day, every day.  We are the worlds largest maker of wakeboard towers, putting out anywhere from 80-140 each day.  We do not clean off the anodizing.  We weld right through it.  With the right setup, it isn't as bad as you may think.Use a 75%argon/25%helium mixed gas.
Reply:I have welded anodized myself but it is still a nasty weld.
Reply:Yep, the mix of 6061 base and 4043 filler in the weld will be heat treatable.Interesting to learn that it is possible to "weld right through" anodized aluminum.  I'd really like to see a comparison of anodized and non-anodized welds, not only the appearance but also the strength and ductility.  This would make a good article for the AWS welding jounal (and good advertising for the wakeboard tower company).
Reply:Originally Posted by pulserYep, the mix of 6061 base and 4043 filler in the weld will be heat treatable.Interesting to learn that it is possible to "weld right through" anodized aluminum.  I'd really like to see a comparison of anodized and non-anodized welds, not only the appearance but also the strength and ductility.  This would make a good article for the AWS welding jounal (and good advertising for the wakeboard tower company).
Reply:dug up old thread on welding anodized aluminum, and did a bit of surfing, seems there's plenty of outfits doing it every day.http://www.weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=1773also link on general aluminum welding issues like filler selection and crack sensitivity.http://www.alcotec.com/attsaw.htm
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidIt would be great if the Welding Journal wanted to do some research and stuff like that.Anodizing comes in many different thicknesses.  Our anodizing is kept very thin, so it is protective, yet doesn't interfere with the weld as bad as some will.  It's about like welding material that isn't quite 100% clean.  The contaminants float up to the top of the weld, as does the anodizing.  You can pass bend testing by welding through the anodizing, and I'd have to bet my money that it would pass tensile pulls also.  In the future, we will probably be doing some xray testing for our certifications.  Compared to the time and expense of preparing a bend test coupon, xray's aren't all that bad.  We can get them done for something like $70 each.  We're better to pay the $70 and get them back on production, where they can easily make up that expense, without disrupting production goals as much.Initally, when I first started the job, I said it would be best to clean it off...but that would double or triple our production times, and the gain would be minimal.  It really doesn't interfere with the quality or speed of weld nearly as bad as you might think.  Our welders can make a 2" saddle weld in less time than it would take to clean off the anodizing.
Reply:I'm not sure of the exact settings, but can get you in the ballpark:60-65 AC balance (this allows for cleaning that's needed)Tungsten not too sharp, but no ball either (this allows you to have a wide arc that is good for gaps).260-280 ampsno pulse (if you use pulse, go with 180-230pps, high background)These are settings for doing the "bumping" method.  It's about what you have to do on this anodized stuff.  It allows a fast burst of heat that helps to blow the anodizing to the edge of the puddle.  You can vary the timing of your pumps such that you regulate heat input.
Reply:a fast burst of heat that helps to blow the anodizing to the edge of the puddle.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterjust get rid of it first...imagine what welding over red annodize looks like..or blue for that matter.. eliminate the problem first for best results.....zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidI'm not sure of the exact settings, but can get you in the ballpark:60-65 AC balance (this allows for cleaning that's needed)Tungsten not too sharp, but no ball either (this allows you to have a wide arc that is good for gaps).260-280 ampsno pulse (if you use pulse, go with 180-230pps, high background)These are settings for doing the "bumping" method.  It's about what you have to do on this anodized stuff.  It allows a fast burst of heat that helps to blow the anodizing to the edge of the puddle.  You can vary the timing of your pumps such that you regulate heat input.
Reply:You will typically need enough amps that you can get a full sized puddle in under one second.  Of course, welding to billet pieces, it may take a second or two to warm up and get started with the first few bumps.
Reply:ok i have to ask if your welding 6061 why not use 6061 filler?ChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:Originally Posted by chopper5ok i have to ask if your welding 6061 why not use 6061 filler?
Reply:thanks,i should have done some reading be for posting  back wen i was learning the old time guys would tell me to weld aluminum you needed the same for fillerChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:Great info guys thanks I was also speaking with Miller they also recommended a filler rod of 5356. I will post some photos of the finished weld once I try it.BTW here is what I'm welding. one of the end is a reducer which I made out  of 6061 that is were joining the two come in.John
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidI'm not sure of the exact settings, but can get you in the ballpark:60-65 AC balance (this allows for cleaning that's needed)Tungsten not too sharp, but no ball either (this allows you to have a wide arc that is good for gaps).260-280 ampsno pulse (if you use pulse, go with 180-230pps, high background)These are settings for doing the "bumping" method.  It's about what you have to do on this anodized stuff.  It allows a fast burst of heat that helps to blow the anodizing to the edge of the puddle.  You can vary the timing of your pumps such that you regulate heat input.
Reply:Originally Posted by jtm311Engloid is there a way to do this without bumping? Also would it be a godd idea to make two passes?Thanks,John
Reply:I have a miller dynasty 2000 which does not have the option and to buy for just this one time is not worth it. That is why I was thinking of the two passes.But thanks
Reply:Originally Posted by jtm311I have a miller dynasty 2000 which does not have the option and to buy for just this one time is not worth it. That is why I was thinking of the two passes.But thanksThought this would help. The miller guys wrote this up for me. Sorry the photo I will update tonight.JohnProcedure for Welding Anodized AluminumDue to the tenacious oxide that is formed when aluminum is anodized, anodized aluminum is very difficult to weld.  While I still feel there are no magic parameters or setting that will provide a perfect weld bead, outlined below are a few techniques and settings that worked best for us here at Miller Electric Mfg. Co.  Overall I still believe if someone wants to successfully weld anodized aluminum, it takes a lot of practice and experimentation.Theory1:Rapidly turning the machine on and off will help break through the oxide.  On the first pass, add the filler material to the weld puddle as the arc is decreasing in amperage.  On the second pass, smooth out the filler material, with out adding additional filler material.Procedure:•Machine without pulse capabilities:Use a momentary contact switch, and “bump” the machine on and off rapidly.  Balance should be set at approx. 6 or 60%.  •Machine with pulse capabilities:Use a foot or fingertip control to control the amperage, and set the pulse parameters as followsPPS (Hz)1Peak t60%BKGND A.10%AC Balance6 or 60%AC Frequency…I had my Dynasty set at 210 Hz.Theory 2: Use a high pulse frequency to break through the oxide. On the first pass, add the filler material to the weld puddle, on the second pass smooth out the filler material, with out adding additional filler material.Procedure:•Machine with pulse capabilities:Use a foot or fingertip control to control the amperage, and set the pulse parameters as followsPPS (Hz)400Peak t50%BKGND A.85%AC Balance6 or 60%AC Frequency 200 - 225 Hz.Pictures 1a and 1b show what your outcome should look like.  On the first pass, the oxide will typically cover the whole weld bead.  On the second pass, the oxide should run to the sides and leave a bright or brighter center.  Remember it takes a lot of practice to perfect the art of welding on anodized aluminum.  The parameters above are just a guide; they are what worked for me and for some others.  Be sure to experiment, it will take some time.1a. 1b.
Reply:Regarding 6061 filler, it is not made because the weld will crack.
Reply:Sorry could not edit this so here are the photos for the aboveJohn
Reply:That's about how it should look.  Notice how there's a trashy look on the edges of the weld.  That's the anodizing that's been pushed to the side of the puddle.
Reply:Yea Engloid as you wrote it is about the same thing they said just in more layman terms for me.   Thanks  for the help.. Just ordered the filler rod so I can give it a shot..John
Reply:I know that Miller is often looked upon as the "end all" of welding knowledge, but...  when the Miller guys tour our plant, they are impressed.  Although they are great and knowledgable guys, the anodized welding is something that they seldom deal with, so they really have little help to offer us.  I think they enjoy coming around to see what they can learn from us.  They do take great care of us though.  I guess they should.  We have about 16 Dynasty 300's and probably 10 Sync250's.  All the Dynasty machines are leased, so when the next round of new machines come out, we'll probably get them...and maybe I can catch a deal on a usde Dynasty!!!
Reply:A the beginning of this discussion in the earlier thread, I thought you had to be crazy, or uniformed, to weld aluminum without removing the anodizing.  So I am excited that the conventional wisdom of all these years can be overturned, at least for some applications.  I hate it when someone tells me, "you can't do it that way, it won't work".  I always ask them why not.Thanks for sharing, I hope to try it out some time.
Reply:Pulser you are welcome.. I knew the guys building the tuna towers are not remove this coating, it would cost about two times the amont in labor.  I never take no for an answer Engloid are you sure you did not write the letter for them lol  I'm really happy with the Dynasty 200 so far.John
Reply:jtm311 thats a nice looking weldChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:Originally Posted by jtm311Engloid are you sure you did not write the letter for them lol  I'm really happy with the Dynasty 200 so far.John
Reply:Originally Posted by chopper5jtm311 thats a nice looking weld
Reply:hi all, a lil recap for the fellas that want to build towers. we use a pure or/zirtung argon or argon helium mix. airgas has a mix called alumamix. 5356 filler. we have syncro 250 s i recently purchased a thermal arc 185 to mate up with our mobile trailblazer 302. i use the 185 in the shop all the time. watercooled. i ordered the ta 300 . i swear by these machines. also make a first pass. make a second after cooling a lil. you will actually watch the anodizing push off and a clean hwy of aluminum follow. a bump swith is a given ...hope this helps...i am trying to coach a fellow in hawaii that wants to build tops.....hope this helps. visit www.nbssportfishing.com and my www.arctekmarine.com for welding info and pics.........happy holidays.......jim  __________________www.arctekmarine.comwww.arctekmarine.com
Reply:Hey Jim thanks for the info.. Mine turned out ok, Well I pressure test the welds they held over 8 bar... I followed almost the same as you. Some more practice they would look good..  I do see once you get the setup correct the anodize does just push away...John