Another noob with questions

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Hi All,Total noob here.This web site is a priceless resource. Over the last few days I've read through all the sticky threads at the top of this forum and all the threads that those threads reference. I've also used the search function and between the two almost all my questions have been answered, and I had a ton of them. Almost all. Here's the ones I couldn't find an answer to.My workshop will be my garage which isn't real large. Along two walls are metal shelves filled with plastic totes and cardboard boxes.  I won't be grinding or welding facing the shelves but I'm worried that when I start with stick welding the splatter might just bounce around and get on the shelves. Will generic blue plastic tarp hung vertically on the front of the shelves be enough to deflect the occasional splatter/spark that heads in that direction?I see there are welding blankets but since those are for direct contact with sparks it thought they might be overkill for this.In one of the threads, I've lost track, there was a post about switching between a CO2 tank and a Argon/CO2 mixture tank. I understand that they would have different properties as a shielding gas but I think the post was referring to a problem with the gas regulator. Can you not just swap out one tank for the other? I was assuming the fittings were universal but you know what they same when you assume.I'd planned to start out using CO2 then  when I got better to move to the more expensive Argon/CO2.  I know how I am and it will take me a while to get the hang of it. Figured I'd save some money that way. I'll be spending that money on other consumables and scrap. Along those line, one more question. What's the current price difference between a 80 cf (92 cf) bottle of CO2 and a C25 Argon/CO2 mixture? Thanks for your time.DavePS. As recommended I ordered the Miller Student Training Package today.
Reply:Welding sparks will burn right through a blue poly tarp.  Cover your shelves with thick welding curtain, or sheet metal, or drywall.  Even plywood is better than a blue tarp.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:You will need an adapter to run straight CO2 with the regs that come with most migs. They come set up to run argon/CO2. The fittings are not the same. They do it this way so you can't accidently mix up what gasses go where for the most part. Like hooking up chlorine instead of O2 in a hospital, or trying to run your Tig on 100% O2 instead of argon..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Thanks DesertRider33,I'll follow your advice and get some welding blankets to use as coverings.Thanks DSW,That's just what I need to know.  My assumption about universal fittings was wrong, which is why I asked.Dave
Reply:To partially answer one my own questions.Today's prices (North Central WV)Air Gas Only carry 80cf tanks, none in stock.$230 for tank. Refill $55AmeriGas80 cf $215 for the tank, $28 refill40 cf $165 for the tank, $20 refillHere's a question I couldn't get answered either place. What's the difference in weight between a full and empty tank? I can find the tare weight for the tanks online but not a fill weight. One gentleman replied that it couldn't be that much heavier since it was just a gas. I didn't want to contradict him but I know the propane tank I use with my grill is lot lighter empty then full but it too is just a gas.  Anyway, just wondering.
Reply:You will probably have to figure out the weight difference on your own.  There are many variables in that idea, the type of gas plays a huge role in that, I would assume.  Either way, I don't know why it would matter.  I can't imagine why it would matter, I have a 125 CF tank, I can't really tell the difference when it's full or empty of argon, but either way I can put it on my shoulder or carry it in my arms the short distances necessary.  If you do ever move around a tank, be sure to put the lid on the valve.  I've read story here and there of valves getting busted off of a tank and turning into a massive rocket.I pay 60 for a refill of my 125CF tank of argon at my LWS.Miller 330 a/bp water cooledI believe in gun control, I hold my gun with two hands.  If you want to know why, click here.Buy American or bye America.
Reply:Propane is a liquid, so you will find a huge weight difference from a full to empty bottle.As far as your welding gasses, the bigger the bottle you get, the cheaper the refill is per CF. I pay $65.00 for a refill on a 300CF bottle of both C-25 and straight Argon.Millermatic 251Spectrum 300 PlasmaEverlast PowerTig 250EXEverlast PowerCool W300Harris / Victor OACraftsman 13 Speed Drill PressProTools Air/Hydraulic Bender48" BrakeCompressor, Notchers, Grinders, etc.
Reply:I can't really tell the difference when it's full or empty of argon,
Reply:CO2 is also a liquid in the tank.  On that note, CO2 is sold by weight, not volume.So my 20lb CO2 tank is around 20lbs lighter when it is empty.  My 20lb CO2 tank is about the same size as an 80CF compressed gas tank (argon/co2 mix, oxygen, etc.)By my math, 80CF of argon weighs 9lbs.  That's not very significant compared to the weight of the cylinder.  CO2 weighs around 9% more than argon, so you can do the math for a mix.However, that 20lbs of CO2 should yield over 160CF of gas.  So, yes, CO2 is MUCH cheaper.
Reply:wow you guys pay ALOT for argon i just filled both my 165cf or argon for 14$ each and only 6$ hydro
Reply:Originally Posted by cncmachininstwow you guys pay ALOT for argon i just filled both my 165cf or argon for 14$ each and only 6$ hydro
Reply:If you're just worried about fire, replace the cardboard with more totes. If your worried about messin' up the plastic totes then you could screen your self in, rather than the shelf. 3 or 4, 1/4" sheets of plywood with piano hinges as a movable partition. Arrange it so it blocks sparks from welding, grinding, or chop sawing. Just another option..........200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:Originally Posted by cncmachininstwow you guys pay ALOT for argon i just filled both my 165cf or argon for 14$ each and only 6$ hydro
Reply:I'd like to get some of that cheap argon too.  At my local Airgas, my 250cf bottle is about $90 to fill, with tax and haz-mat.  My 150cf and 125cf are about $60 and my 80cf is about $45, if I remember right.  This is for straight argon, not mixed.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Haz-Mat on Argon??  That charge must be to clean up all of that spilled argon....Can anyone give me a logical explanation of the Haz-Mat charge on materials that are not hazardous?
Reply:This is communist Kalifornia, where the gov't can put a haz-mat charge on just about anything that could go into the air, water, dirt, your body, etc.  Mainly, it's there so they can get your money to go in their pockets, which they use to fund their ability to tell you how you can and can't live your life....Last edited by DesertRider33; 10-15-2010 at 10:54 AM.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Originally Posted by karchibaHaz-Mat on Argon??  That charge must be to clean up all of that spilled argon....Can anyone give me a logical explanation of the Haz-Mat charge on materials that are not hazardous?
Reply:DSW,I sure appreciate that response.  I guess I've never looked at that side of the argument._kevin
Reply:Wait till you see the hazmat charge for a pair of welding glovesEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Wait till you see the hazmat charge for a pair of welding gloves
Reply:Thanks for to all for the info.I received my Miller  Student Training Package today. Here's what it contains.Click photos to enlarge     * Guidelines for GMAW Welding    * The Fundamentals of Solid State    * Principles of Arc Welding    * Handbook for Resistance Spot Welding    * Arc Stud Welding Fundamentals    * Paralleling Arc Welding Power Sources    * Basic Electricity    * Welding and the World of Metals    *  GMAW-P (PulsedMIG) Welding Publication    * GTAW (TIG) Welding Publication    * GMAW (MIG) Welding Publication     And a Miller catalog(3) Miller Slide Calculators — Stick, MIG, and TIG with a plastic pouchSafety PosterNorthern Industrial MIG/Stick 200 Welder(3) Soldering irons and some flint n' steel.
Reply:To partially answer one of my own questions.The weight of a full 80 cf tank. Bought today from AmeriGas for $215 (not including tax).I show it to be about 62 pounds.I'll check it again when empty.New question.Do these marking show that the tank was last tested in 2006 and it's good for 10 years after that date?Thanks,DavePS. I've found out the true purpose of welding gloves. It's not to protect your hands while you weld, which they do quite well. It's to protect the hands of dumbs**ts like myself who didn't realize that welding on one end of a piece of metal makes the whole thing pretty damn hot. Thank goodness I hadn't take them off.Last edited by WVVan; 11-23-2010 at 10:34 PM.Northern Industrial MIG/Stick 200 Welder(3) Soldering irons and some flint n' steel.
Reply:Originally Posted by WVVanNew question.Do these marking show that the tank was last tested in 2006 and it's good for 10 years after that date?
Reply:without the star a test is good for 5 years...
Reply:Originally Posted by WVVanPS. As recommended I ordered the Miller Student Training Package today.Thanks for the info guys.I'm planning on calling a local metal supplier next week. I've read on other threads about local prices as compared to box stores so I went to Lowe's today to get some prices.11/27/2010.Lowe's in north central West VirginiaExcept for sheet, all pieces are 3' long.Angle1/8" x 1" - $5.871/8" x 1-1/4" - $7.371/8" x 1-1/2" - $8.77Flat stock1/8" x 1/2" - $3.471/8" x 1" - $4.471/8" x 1-1/4" - $4.971/8" x 1-1/2" - $5.861/8" x 2" - $6.971/8" x 3" - $12.983/16" x 3/4" - $3.963/16" x 1" - $5.973/16" x 1-1/4" - $7.673/16" x 1-1/2" - $9.373/16" x 3" - $16.931/4" x 3/4" - $6.881/4" x 1" - $6.981/4" x 1-1/2" - $8.77Sheet6" x 24"   16 Ga - $9.2412" x 18"  16 Ga - $13.3624" x 24" 16 Ga  - $32.888" x 24"  22 Ga - $6.7712" x 18"  22 Ga - $7.9824" x 24"  22 Ga - $18.48Last edited by WVVan; 11-27-2010 at 10:02 PM.Northern Industrial MIG/Stick 200 Welder(3) Soldering irons and some flint n' steel.
Reply:Just to compare, Ed Mac posted these prices today. Originally Posted by ed maccost 2x2x1/8x20       $26.221.5x1.5x1/8x20  $20.70
Reply:Thanks DSW,Is 20' the standard length a supplier would deal in? If it is I can haul 10' in my van. What would a cut charge be?DaveNorthern Industrial MIG/Stick 200 Welder(3) Soldering irons and some flint n' steel.
Reply:Originally Posted by WVVanThanks DSW,Is 20' the standard length a supplier would deal in? If it is I can haul 10' in my van. What would a cut charge be?Dave
Reply:Full lengths can vary. 20', 22' and 24' are common lengths I've picked up in the past depending on just what the material was.One place I use doesn't charge for the 1st 5 cuts, another charges .50 / cut and another is willing to cut things in half  for free with the iron worker if you aren't too picky about exact lengths and they are slow. Normally I take the truck with the rack or just get the pieces cut and don't worry about the small cost because I'm not getting full lengths anyways..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Cut charges vary widely.As for tarps,,, a canvas tarp will stop sparks much better than poly. Make sure you put it up so it hangs flat and has no spark trapping dips / pockets.
Reply:My (first ever) haul today from a local steel supplier (Huntington Steel).Angle ASTM A361" x 1" x 1/8" x 20'  $10.151-1/2" x 1-1/2" x 1/8" x 20'   $15.50Flat Bar ASTM A361/8" x 1" x 20'  $5.751/8" x 1-1/2" x 20'  $8.503/16" x 1" x 20'  $9.50Hollow Struc Shape SQ/REC1" x 1" x 16G x 20'  $16.50You can sure get a boatload (93 lbs) of steel for just $65.95 (pre tax).No cut charge but you have to take the entire length.Last edited by WVVan; 12-03-2010 at 04:04 PM.Northern Industrial MIG/Stick 200 Welder(3) Soldering irons and some flint n' steel.
Reply:A few more questions.I tend to set the auto darkening welding hood glass to the lighter (clearer?) shade. Is there a way to tell if I'm letting too much light through? I don't see "ghost" images if I close my eyes right after finishing a weld but I don't know if that really means anything.When MIG welding I usually end up with around an inch of wire sticking out from the end of the gun when finishing a weld. Does this get better with practice or is that just normal? Up till now I've just been practicing laying down welds. From what I've read some grinder practice is in order. I have a 4-1/2" angle grinder that up till now I've only used with a wire wheel for auto body paint work. Looking at the Northern Tool site I see "Aluminum oxide depressed center cut-off wheels for metal cutting and grinding"(Norther Industrial). They also have "Premium grain aluminum oxide wheel for close, fast and comfortable cutting" (Continental Abrasives). And there is "Made for a wide range of grinding, shaping and cutting jobs in home workshops, farms and machine shops" (Norton).Beside quality are all these discs pretty much the same? Is a cutting wheel the same as a grinding wheel?Thanks,DaveNorthern Industrial MIG/Stick 200 Welder(3) Soldering irons and some flint n' steel.
Reply:No, cutting wheels and griding wheels are different.  Cut off wheels are thin and aren't meant to be pressed down like a grinding wheel.  Not that you can't use them to touch up little spots, it's just not the intended purpose and they can shatter.  Griding wheels are usually around 1/4" thick.  Just make sure you wear safety glasses.  I wear mine even under my welding helmet.Check out this place for abrasives.  I haven't ordered from them yet, but the local place I checked out the other day was way to high for what I wanted to buy.http://www.lehighvalleyabrasives.com/servlet/StoreFront
Reply:Hey Kazlx,Thanks for the info. I checked out the grinding wheels at the link you posted. I notice the low cost ($1.15) wheels they are selling (4-1/2" x 1/4" x 7/8" Grinding Wheel A24R Metabo) are made in Germany as opposed to everybody else's  low end wheels which are made in China. Can't remember anyone ever complaining about getting bad quality junk from Germany, unlike China.DaveLast edited by WVVan; 12-10-2010 at 11:06 AM.Northern Industrial MIG/Stick 200 Welder(3) Soldering irons and some flint n' steel.
Reply:Another vote for LehighValleyhttp://www.lehighvalleyabrasives.com/servlet/StoreFrontMiller Syncrowave 200MillerMatic 180 AutoSetHobart Airforce 500iVictor O/A (80cf)
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWAny compressed gas cyl is considered "harardous" because of the pressure inside and needs to be placarded on a commercial vehicle. The hazzard is do to the result if a valve shears off or a cyl ruptures, not just because of the contents. Read the MSDS on O2 sometime. Oxygen is considered a "breathing hazzard". Thats because too much O2 under the right circumstances is toxic. Argon, helium, CO2 and blends are asphixiants and in moderate concentrations can be lethal. Argon, helium and many mixes will cause a person stop breathing do to the fact that in large enough quantities they can displace enough O2/CO2 to stop the bodies natural breathing reaction. (ballon helium has at least 18% O2 added so you don't kill yourself breathing from the ballon. BTW NEVER use welding helium to fill ballons for this reason) You don't breath because your body needs O2, it's because your body has an excess of CO2. Not enough CO2 in the lungs and the body will just sit there and wait till the CO2 rises. If you don't have enough O2 to create the extra CO2, the body breathing reflex just stalls. Actually read the tunnel warning signs the next time you go by. You're not supposed to take compressed gases or even propane thru most tunnels.
Reply:Definitely need to build a small weld booth in your garage as those sparks go places you can't believe. I use a couple of plastic welding sheets attached to 1 x1 metal frames.
Reply:Back to the local steel outlet for some more supplies.Today's prices:Angle ASTM A361-1/2" x 1-1/2" x 1/8" x 20' $16.25 (up $.075  since 12-03-2010)Flat Bar ASTM A363/16" x 1" x 20' $11.20 (up $1.70 since 12-03-2010)Hollow Struc Shape SQ/REC(AKA Square tube as I was told today.)1-1/4"  x 1-1/4" x 16G x 24' $37.20 Sheet 16 Gauge (.0598") 4' x 10' $60.00I find welding to be slight addictive. I keep wanting to make things.Northern Industrial MIG/Stick 200 Welder(3) Soldering irons and some flint n' steel.
Reply:To answer one of previous questions about tank weight.The 80cf tank was 62 lbs full and 52 lbs empty.Not exactly empty since I still had some gas flow. It showed no pressure on the one gauge and the flow had dropped to half the recommended level. Newbie question. Is it worth it to keep opening up on the flow regulator to try and use the last bit of gas?Northern Industrial MIG/Stick 200 Welder(3) Soldering irons and some flint n' steel.
Reply:I guess that once you get the hang of welding one of the first things you're supposed to make is a cart.Here's mine:At 70 lbs it's probably stronger than it needs to be but the material costs were still less than the $40 that Harbor Freight wants for theirs. The sides are 16 Ga so I have some place to stick all those new angled welding magnets I seem to be collecting. Didn't paint it to match the welder. Just happened to have a couple cans of Rustoleum yellow paint laying around getting old. Good chance to use them up.Last edited by WVVan; 04-09-2011 at 07:54 PM.Northern Industrial MIG/Stick 200 Welder(3) Soldering irons and some flint n' steel.
Reply:Looks good. I'd keep those magnets in ziplock baggies to help prevent them from attracting every piece of grinding dust in the shop. At least in the bag it's easy to dump all the dust and not spend 1/2 the day trying to clean them..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:OK DWS, that's why you've got "Master Welder" under your name. That is the tip of the year right there!!!! 200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:Thanks DSW. I've discovered that annoying ability of the magnets to get coated with debris already. I'll have to remember the zip-lock trick.Northern Industrial MIG/Stick 200 Welder(3) Soldering irons and some flint n' steel.
Reply:I guess sooner or later you'll need a MIG welder holder. Here's mine.Made it from 1/4" steel rod and a $5 magnet from Harbor Freight.Mounts to both my work table and welding cart.Bent the rod using a bench vise and a hammer.Should have made it sooner but it was always on the "get to it later" job pile. Nice not having the trigger activated anymore when I place the gun down.Northern Industrial MIG/Stick 200 Welder(3) Soldering irons and some flint n' steel.