Another "new" bucket/bracket conversion

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Okay  the last time,  I didn't have a completed picture of my loader bracket conversion, but on this one, I managed to do it .  Enjoy, hammer me if you will.Notice the burnt grass.  Yep.  I even knew that would happen.  Had the hose handy.  Burning is good for centipede. Attached ImagesEsab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Here's part two: Attached ImagesEsab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Looks good.  I wish I had a bucket for my loader.What type of steel is used to make a commercial bucket like that.  Somebody said it's tempered or something.  Might not be doable for me.Do you have an endless supply of these things"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Sam, I think the cutting edge is hardened. The rest are mild steel.  Maybe it is different on monster loaders in coal mines, gravel quarries, ect.  You could build one for a tractor loader without much problem.Mack
Reply:Originally Posted by MackSam, I think the cutting edge is hardened. The rest are mild steel.  Maybe it is different on monster loaders in coal mines, gravel quarries, ect.  You could build one for a tractor loader without much problem.
Reply:buckets like this are usually mild steel, except for the blade, I did some thing similar to this with hot rolled 1/2" material and it's lasted so far for over 4 years, I have to say though that I admire your design, it looks far more superior to what normally comes on bobtach style buckets and a lot better than the one I did.
Reply:Farmersamm,The material in the cutting edge is not much different than what is in a plowshare.  In fact,  good cold rolled material should suffice.  The rest of the bucket is good old fashioned plate.  Some are 3/16 to 1/4 inch material, with a reinforcement for a wear plate on the bottom.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Eye, Normallly for these mounts,  I use cold rolled steel.  But I couldn't get any from my normal suppliers this week, so I subbed HR steel.  I hope I can get away with it.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:correct me if I'm wrong, and I have always believed, until recently, that cold rolled is stronger than hot. from what I have been told is that hot rolled has more carbon in it than cold rolled, and the reason why machinist use cold rolled is because there is less stress in it  to start with, and then you can temper your final product after machining is completed,so you don't have to deal with tolerance changes starting out with the hot. I haven't really researched it for myself so maybe some of you guys might have more knowledge in this.
Reply:No,I had a discussion with a steel supplier the other day.  He had no cold in stock.  He tried to convince me that cold rolled was just "machined" to produce finish by grinding.I knew better, but since he has good prices and a good fellow overall,  I let it slide.  But found this to be helpful and to reinforce my knowledge of the product.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_rollingEsab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by eyeball engineercorrect me if I'm wrong, and I have always believed, until recently, that cold rolled is stronger than hot. from what I have been told is that hot rolled has more carbon in it than cold rolled, and the reason why machinist use cold rolled is because there is less stress in it  to start with, and then you can temper your final product after machining is completed,so you don't have to deal with tolerance changes starting out with the hot. I haven't really researched it for myself so maybe some of you guys might have more knowledge in this.
Reply:Due to the angle of the bottom bracket it is not practical.  The bar on the bottom of the bucket extends below the "heel" of the bucket any way.  The design of a loader like that won't permit that much curl, and there are other parts of the loader that stick down lower than that anyway.I have welded many cutting edges in heavy equipment and all  are "weldable" steel with a recommended 7018.  I've done everything from bobcat, to Ford/New holland to Cat.  Never seen anything about magnesium though.  In fact,  many edges have to be heated and formed around the sides with a sledge hammer to finish the bucket.Cold rolled is a harder and higher tensile strength than hot rolled. It does have its disadvantages though.  It is less ductile.Last edited by lugweld; 12-07-2008 at 08:29 PM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Just FYI not all cutting edges are the same... you can get them in a variety of material including plain old mild steel ....and as to wear bars / plates most are made of the same thing the bucket is... mild steel...... yes you can get buckets with T1 etc wear plates but for most the extra $ isn't worth it.... looking in a Cat parts book loader edges are made of DH-2 steel and hardened to 430-520 Brinell
Reply:Lugweld; you misread Pawelder who said Manganese, not Magnesium. Higher Manganese steels work-harden on the outside but keep a tough center and are good for abrasion resistance on earthmoving equipment.
Reply:Wow that was a big fire. Did it burn fast or did you not notice it right away?BTW, nice job on the bucket.
Reply:It wasn't so big. Only about 50 x 50.  I saw it burning a kept welding until I got to a stopping point and casually went and hooked up the garden hose and watched it burn some more till it reached my unharvested pecans.Then I doused it.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Lugweld:What size material are you using for the quick mount adaptor? Looks like about 1/2" on sides and 3/8" top and bottom.I am building a man lift so we can paint the front gate and I have skidsteer quick change adaptor on my tractor. I will save a lot of hassle using this adaptor on the man lift rather than fooling around with forks on my FEL.thanks.Glenn.Sign on East Texas payphone: Calls to God 40 cents......it's a local call...
Reply:Are you changing the loader to QD or are you adapting a 'bota bucket to a bobcat?Looks good. If I was doing it, I'd knock the corners off the top and bottoms of the side plates. I've gotten caught to many times on corners if you slip and whack a knuckle or hand. I'd just cut it back to where ever the top and bottom pieces come in.Yeah we usually just repair our buckets with MS, and buy new cutting edges, shanks etc from the same place that sells them to the quarries. I forget just what the steels are, I know they are hardened, but 7018 works well to run them in and is what they recommend for almost everything.
Reply:Changing some "new" oldstock buckets to fit the QD loaders that Kubota sells now.About knocking the corners off...You get what you pay for...Its a Cheapo job the customer wanted(120.00).  There isn't anything deficient about the design or welding.  I already saw one of these buckets trashed...but the welds held.  However, if he was willing to front another 50.00 we could have made things "purty".The first bucket I did was with 7018...This was with  ER70S-6 .035 Mig wire with 82/18Ar/CO2.  Sprayed where I could and shorted in the delicate areas.Last edited by lugweld; 03-05-2009 at 04:57 PM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldAbout knocking the corners off...You get what you pay for...Its a Cheapo job the customer wanted(120.00).  There isn't anything deficient about the design or welding.  I already saw one of these buckets trashed...but the welds held.  However, if he was willing to front another 50.00 we could have made things "purty".
Reply:Yeah the guy was backdragging with the bucket edge down and caught a stump. OW!  From the looks of it, the bucket lip was caved in about foot and a half in the middle.It was straightened out and went back to work.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWIf it's like the bucket on our old 'bota, those things are thin to start with, so it doesn't surprise me to see someone F'd one up. If the sides and floor are 3/16" I'd be surprised. 1/8" or 12G for most of it wouldn't suprise me at all.
Reply:railin,You need to go look at the competition...Their buckets are much heavier and better built.  I should know...I've sold and installed all kinds.  I have intimate knowledge of Kubota and know that they are some of the lightest weight equipment on the market.  Quality is fine...but quality isn't the only thing important when dealing with equipment designed to engage the ground. Additionally, Kubota markets its equipment and tractors to the landscaping and construction industry.   Look at the number of models availlable with "industrial" tires.  For you to state they are "Agricultural" machines is laughable...They don't even employ draft control unless you pay for it or you buy a larger piece of equipment.  Any one that truly farms knows what draft control is for.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldrailin,You need to go look at the competition...Their buckets are much heavier and better built.  I should know...I've sold and installed all kinds.  I have intimate knowledge of Kubota and know that they are some of the lightest weight equipment on the market.  Quality is fine...but quality isn't the only thing important when dealing with equipment designed to engage the ground. Additionally, Kubota markets its equipment and tractors to the landscaping and construction industry.   Look at the number of models availlable with "industrial" tires.  For you to state they are "Agricultural" machines is laughable...They don't even employ draft control unless you pay for it or you buy a larger piece of equipment.  Any one that truly farms knows what draft control is for.
Reply:Railin,I have as a farm manager worked with Kubota in north Ga when they field tested the B series.  I am aware of their testing.  I have even had the VP of the N american operations (or something to that affect, he was a japanese american potato farmer!) on our farm with a team of engineers.  They wanted to evaluate their products and their work environment.  We had more trouble out of the Kubotas breaking parts and wearing out than we did with the other major brands i.e. Ford/NH and Case IH. They were friendly and inquisisitve. But we had to offset cultivating tractors on our farm, one was a IH powered with a small Kumatsu diesel and a Kubota.  The IH had more hours.  The Japanese eyes popped wide open when they saw it took a full round of turning to even budge the front wheels, while the IH would turn with less than 15 degrees of motion on the steering wheel.  They were amazed to say the least. The VP translated they had never seen anything like that before...Then they saw our other tractor.  The spindles broke constantly due to front end loader use, had to replace an engine a 400 hours and complete electrical parts failures.  They couldn't understand that in America, tractors are used to the maximum capacity daily.  Issues with overheating STILL plague Kubota for this reason.I understand and agree with you that the tractors are of quality.  But even as you stated, the tractors aren't designed for the heaviest work because it can't be predicted how the tractor will be used.  It is funny...you state the percentage of ww sales.  Did you know that until 1992 that the Soviet built tractor "Belarus" had 40 percent share of WW sales?  They sold not only in eastern block, but the majority of their sales were in free enterprise countries in the west and europe.  So quality doesn't necessarily mean squat to sales.  You mention market share under 110 hp....You really can only claim true market share under 60 hp here give or take a few HP.  True farmers generally won't use a Kubota.  Do you know (unless things have changed recently) that a Kubota won't spread out for 2 full standard spaced rows (produce)?   What percentage does Kubota sell to TRUE farmers like FarmerSamm and people like him?  Very little.  They won't keep up in the field due to their light weight.  The tractors build HP at a higher RPM and have less torque than larger, lower more cylindered engines.  This prevents them from being a serious field tractor.   The greatest majority of Kubota market growth has been in the "weekend warrior" category.  I used to work for NH a few years ago when the "boomers" were introduced.  We were sitting in a seminar when the corporate heads were explaining to us that they too were reaching out to that market with this tractor.  They even admitted, that it was poorly designed for real farm use.  The nod was given to styling over function.   When asked why, the corporate guy said: We have done market research and found that the majority of these size tractors will be housed in garages, next to Mercedes and bass boats.   He went on(basic gist):  Further research has revealed that it is the woman in the household that gives approval for such financial purchases and we have found that their major issues have been how the tractor looks and not how it performs.  So we have not only styled the tractor, but subtley changed the color to be more appealing to women.Kubota knows the same research,as well as the other mfgr's.  But what is different with Kubota is that they expressly appeal to this category and it is also why they are experiencing the greatest drop in demand...  110+ hp sales are up so are utility class tractors 60 hp and over.  What the other Manufacturers have done is have the "pretty" class and maintain their true "work" tractor lines with similar HP ratings that appeal to serious use customers.  No one questions the quality of New Holland/Case IH or AGCO/Massey or John Deere either. Whether you "like" them or not,  most generally you will admit that they all have great quality.    Most of Kubotas success has not been based on quality, though the quality of production is excellent.  Their success has been based off of ingenious marketing and advertising promotion.  I have watched and admired their dealer programs and their cooperative advertising management.  It works well and makes dealers happy.  It has given dealers an easier product to promote, because, it gives them higher margins and more "freebies".  That is why so many multiline dealers push the Kubotas.   It makes them more money.  You see,  people just don't walk on the lot and want to look at a Kubota....No, they buy what the dealer sells them on....It all boils down to marketing.Last edited by lugweld; 03-10-2009 at 12:16 PM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXTSide by side the in the under 100 HP category the kubota most definitely OWNS the Yanmar power John Deere's   Parts when needed seem to be much cheaper on the kabota tractors compared to the John Deere's   In fact the john Deere is SO not a farm tractor that I have to purchase parts for it from "Turf And Industrial" These are not FARM Tractors.  If your using them to plant row crops or heavy tillage you need think twice if you have the skills to successfully farm.the belong hauling manure pulling wagons of hay and light bucket grading of lawns and paddocks.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:Dualie,  The JD yanmar stops around 45 hp.   As I said each company owns a "pretty" line, sourced from either Japan or Korea.  As for the largest in the series,  I have extensively used the cab model 45 hp tractor in the field with no issues.  But John Deere has the 5x03 series that range from 39 pto up to about 70+ hp that offer heavier build features and true tractor design at a relatively cheap price. They offer other more expensive models as well, but to make a comparison to  the Yanmar models,  they are workhorses and the Yanmars are but a child's pony.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldRailin,I have as a farm manager worked with Kubota in north Ga when they field tested the B series.  I am aware of their testing.  I have even had the VP of the N american operations (or something to that affect, he was a japanese american potato farmer!) on our farm with a team of engineers.  They wanted to evaluate their products and their work environment.  We had more trouble out of the Kubotas breaking parts and wearing out than we did with the other major brands i.e. Ford/NH and Case IH. They were friendly and inquisisitve. But we had to offset cultivating tractors on our farm, one was a IH powered with a small Kumatsu diesel and a Kubota.  The IH had more hours.  The Japanese eyes popped wide open when they saw it took a full round of turning to even budge the front wheels, while the IH would turn with less than 15 degrees of motion on the steering wheel.  They were amazed to say the least. The VP translated they had never seen anything like that before...Then they saw our other tractor.  The spindles broke constantly due to front end loader use, had to replace an engine a 400 hours and complete electrical parts failures.  They couldn't understand that in America, tractors are used to the maximum capacity daily.  Issues with overheating STILL plague Kubota for this reason.I understand and agree with you that the tractors are of quality.  But even as you stated, the tractors aren't designed for the heaviest work because it can't be predicted how the tractor will be used.  It is funny...you state the percentage of ww sales.  Did you know that until 1992 that the Soviet built tractor "Belarus" had 40 percent share of WW sales?  They sold not only in eastern block, but the majority of their sales were in free enterprise countries in the west and europe.  So quality doesn't necessarily mean squat to sales.  You mention market share under 110 hp....You really can only claim true market share under 60 hp here give or take a few HP.  True farmers generally won't use a Kubota.  Do you know (unless things have changed recently) that a Kubota won't spread out for 2 full standard spaced rows (produce)?   What percentage does Kubota sell to TRUE farmers like FarmerSamm and people like him?  Very little.  They won't keep up in the field due to their light weight.  The tractors build HP at a higher RPM and have less torque than larger, lower more cylindered engines.  This prevents them from being a serious field tractor.   The greatest majority of Kubota market growth has been in the "weekend warrior" category.  I used to work for NH a few years ago when the "boomers" were introduced.  We were sitting in a seminar when the corporate heads were explaining to us that they too were reaching out to that market with this tractor.  They even admitted, that it was poorly designed for real farm use.  The nod was given to styling over function.   When asked why, the corporate guy said: We have done market research and found that the majority of these size tractors will be housed in garages, next to Mercedes and bass boats.   He went on(basic gist):  Further research has revealed that it is the woman in the household that gives approval for such financial purchases and we have found that their major issues have been how the tractor looks and not how it performs.  So we have not only styled the tractor, but subtley changed the color to be more appealing to women.Kubota knows the same research,as well as the other mfgr's.  But what is different with Kubota is that they expressly appeal to this category and it is also why they are experiencing the greatest drop in demand...  110+ hp sales are up so are utility class tractors 60 hp and over.  What the other Manufacturers have done is have the "pretty" class and maintain their true "work" tractor lines with similar HP ratings that appeal to serious use customers.  No one questions the quality of New Holland/Case IH or AGCO/Massey or John Deere either. Whether you "like" them or not,  most generally you will admit that they all have great quality.    Most of Kubotas success has not been based on quality, though the quality of production is excellent.  Their success has been based off of ingenious marketing and advertising promotion.  I have watched and admired their dealer programs and their cooperative advertising management.  It works well and makes dealers happy.  It has given dealers an easier product to promote, because, it gives them higher margins and more "freebies".  That is why so many multiline dealers push the Kubotas.   It makes them more money.  You see,  people just don't walk on the lot and want to look at a Kubota....No, they buy what the dealer sells them on....It all boils down to marketing.
Reply:Well,You are doing what you can to make a difference.  Keep at it. Offer suggestions where you are allowed and go home and sleep good at night.   The Japanese and the Indians both have significant presence in American agriculture.  After dealing with them both,  I have come to understand that they have a cartoonish impression and understanding of the American economy.  One thing that they mess up terribly bad in understanding is that the American farmer is terribly independent minded and WON'T be pressed into a marketing mold.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT