Even welding is dumbing down

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I just looked through the new Tractor Supply sale flyer to see offered Hobart 125EZ welder.  http://www.hobartwelders.com/product...ler_125_EZ.pdfThe advert touts:"Easiest-to-use" gasless, flux-cored wire welder.Single knob control.Trigger activated arc.Operator only needs to adjust a single knob for the thickness of mild steel to be welded and he’s ready to weld.One knob adjusts both the volts and wire feed speed.The Handler 125EZ is a great portable welder forfarm and ranch projects, home hobbyists, lightfabrication projects, maintenance and repair.I guess it's now official, even a zoo monkey will be able to weld with this new Hobart machine!  I hope the instructions for installing a new spool of wire and threading the feedhead are just as mindless.What is this world coming to?  Dolt welders?Rant over.  Thanks for listening.WeldingWeb forum--now more sophomoric banter than anything else!
Reply:It won't be used by real welders..Real welders fine tune for diffrent occasions..Thats for bozo's that will never learn correctly..I'm not worried in the least.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:No matter what the machine does for you . . . unless it can hold the gun and run a bead by itself the machine still needs a skilled welder to make a good weld.That machine might make it easier for beginners to get started without fussing with machine settings as much, but I wouldn't be too concerned about zoo monkeys at this point.  Favorite right now is a Miller Syncro 200.Tons of tools and I blame at least one of them when things don't go right.
Reply:I can see it now.  Some bozo standing there with his arms crossed, staring at the machine face for hours, because he has to weld something thin to something thick...
Reply:This is another great reason that I say people should learn to weld with a torch or stick weld before moving on to MIG welding. They're making unskilled people think that welding is like using a hot glue gun.
Reply:Originally Posted by SupeI can see it now.  Some bozo standing there with his arms crossed, staring at the machine face for hours, because he has to weld something thin to something thick...
Reply:I'm guessing none of you have welded with one?  This isn't a Harbor Freight special; they probably did their homework.There are a couple of guys who post on this board, too, that helped test this machine for the factory and some other guys that are VERY sharp with welder electronics that have bought and/or reviewed these machines.  A quick search for "HH125EZ" at the Hobart board will bring some education to this thread.  And those will be unbiased.  For example, one of the most knowledgable members of these boards, esp. when it comes to MIG welding, is Dan.  He was outspoken about the short-comings of the HH180, yet is very pleased with the performance of the HH125EZ, within its capabilites, of course; I'm not directly comparing those two machines.The machine works.  I've no need for one, but if I did, I'd not hesitate to buy it.  For what it costs, if all you needed was a light duty FCAW-only unit, then why pay for all the bells and whistles of an HH140?
Reply:Hello to all, I'm new here.All the manufacturers degrade and discredit themselves by manufacturing and marketing these pieces of "equipment"  Welding on any level should not be taken lightly - human life may hang in the balance.  These types of machines give a newcomer a false sense of security and confidence, and then the user goes out creates monstrosities that are unfit to lay in a junkyard.  Case in point hitting close to home.  A former work associate's sister in law was killed when the truck she was driving was in an accident. The home built sled deck was hit, the welds failed, and a piece of steel was driven into the cab where it impaled her in the driver's seat.  Pronounced dead at the scene.  Sorry for being so serious with my first post here.  If you want to drive a car - you need a license.  If you want to drive tractor/trailer - you need a license.  If you want to own firearms (in Canada at least) - you need a license.  The list goes on and on.... So why can just anybody weld?Later,
Reply:So ban every machine under 240V is your solution?
Reply:Just because you can afford a welder doesn't mean you know how to run it.  DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:It still assumes that the person using it is smart enough to plug it in...Hobart 140 Handler w/ gasHyperTherm Powermax 380 Plasmaoxy/acetylene
Reply:If you want to have your brakes changed, get a license. If you want to rotate tires, get a license. If you want to have the BBQ bottle swapped, get a license. If you want to change cords on a welder, get a license. Want to install a receptacle, get a license. The list does go on-and-on
Reply:Hello Mac,  I thought I recognized you on here.  No, banning 110V machines will not solve anything.  The point I guess I was trying to make is that with the widespread appeal of welding due to OCC, Monster Garage, etc. that there is a huge wave of the average Joe's trying to be like the guys on TV.  I have no problem with that per se.  We need more tradespeople.  My issue, or what causes me concern & disappointment is that everyone seems to be flocking to buy a welder, but very few are taking lessons (or being shown) how to use it which results in a lot of unsafe products out there.  I'm not explaining myself very well.  Hopefully you get the point.See you on the other site Mac,Later,Sandy, maybe I deserved that.....maybe not.  If I offended you, I apologize.
Reply:...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Zap, you constantly remind us of why your post count is so high.Black Wolf, welcome to this one!  Quite a different crowd here on average, but also an excellent board.  Don't let this thread make the first impression.As for the criminal negligence for welding on highway equipment, it's been around for a lot longer than the HH125EZ.  It's part of the reason I drive a 4x4 dually just to go get a six-pack down the street.  Some of those horrible welds on the street were probably even done with 225A Stick machines.As for the confusion with welding thick to thin, we already get those posts all the time from guys with HH180s and the like because the door chart doesn't address it anymore than the dial on an HH125EZ.Some people just need a $15 HF orange grinder for what they do; many need a DeWalt DW28402.  Some people just need a H125EZ for what they do; many need a MM212.
Reply:The HH125EZ may be a fine machine within it's limits but with the exception of 16-24 gauge sheet metal I'll stick to my idea that folks should learn to weld with a torch or stick before they start squirting wire at metal.
Reply:Thanks for the welcome Mac,I think the person posting ahead of me got closer to the point I was trying to make.  GMAW is one of the easiest forms of welding - kind of like a camera - you aim and pull the trigger. Just about anyone can in a short period of time make a decent looking weld. BUT, without the proper theory and understanding, these "good looking" welds can be cold lap with no penetration, and when they are put to the test (ie an accident) the welds fail miserably and the outcome is much worse.   Using the example of the average Joe - I'd actually like to see the stores that sell these products have each new buyer sign up for a few hour training course, or include a GMAW or FCAW video with purchase....just to get him/her started on the right track. That would be fair and safer for all concerned.Just my $.02Later,P.S. On a side note... I love the selection of smilies on here.  Way Cool.
Reply:Sandy, maybe I deserved that.....maybe not.
Reply:Sandy, no worries.  I'm a big boy, if I've got it coming, I can take it.  Mac can be my witness,  some of the other sites we are on get pretty rough  and sometimes I get hammered.  No big deal.   Looking forward to contributing to, and learning from, all of you in the future.Later,
Reply:I think a lot of people buy these things and never burn a whole roll of wire through them.  Some buy a little 110 volt welder and think they can weld anything.  That was why I did the weld 3/8 with a 110 mig thing.  Every machine has its limitations.   How many would sell if they had to take a course to use it?  NOPE, just plug it in and its EZ.  Any idiot can run this welder  . DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by David RI think a lot of people buy these things and never burn a whole roll of wire through them.
Reply:I think MAc and David are dead on  with this. Some need a .22, some need a 30-06, some need a BMG.50. All depends on what you're hunting. And everyone begins somewhere. Many do not have justification for buying all the stuff we have, they don't have the money to spend, and this gives them a starting point. Many semi-cheap hobbies become passions and jobs later in life, look at football, basketball. Starts out fun& cheap, then goes up. Or fishing. Starts out with a worm, line and a hook. Now, I have??? too much $$ to count in fishing gear. And to think, eventually some make it a job, and get paid to go fishing...This entry level welder will keep young people around with options, so there will be a base pool for use to hire from later.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Originally Posted by MAC702Zap, you constantly remind us of why your post count is so high.
Reply:Originally Posted by MAC702So ban every machine under 240V is your solution?
Reply:Got to admit though, the one liners, or one worders, are sometimes enteraining.I'm all for good one-liners.Anyway, a guy that does nothing but ornamental steel and security bars all day long out in the field (and there's a LOT of guys who do just that) would make a ton of money with a HH125EZ, and it's all they need.
Reply:I am all for buying the minimal welder to get the job done.  I have no need for the HH125EZ,  though I bet there are professional welders who can put one to use.  Even within a shop that does thin guage stuff.  It minimizes the setting a employee has to deal with adjusting.  It also reduces the training required.  If somobody can get an acceptable weld with one of those, then they surely wouldn't have a problem welding with a larger machine.I don't think "who" purchases the machine can be controlled.  The size of machine has nothing to do with whether the operator can weld or the operator will work within the capacity of the machine.
Reply:Who needs classes when we have the Weldingweb?
Reply:The subject of people running amuck with welders reminds me of a house I bought 8 years ago, it had a patio area covered with shade cloth but in summer (8 months of the year it is 40oC+) it was inadequate so I decided I would do some alterations. I decided to remove a 3x3x 3/8 angle that was supporting the cloth which was on a wire frame, so I climbed up and cut most of one end and left some to stop it dropping, I then went to the other end and cut it most of the was through. I said to my wife" I will cut this and heat the other bit I've left and it will swing towards you as it gets hot, when you can grab it I will cut it through"but before I started I noticed it was sitting on some slag so I grabbed a hammer and gave it a belt. Next thing it all fell down and my wife displayed some amazing agility and speed, the welds had all let go, the guy who put it up hadn't prepared it and just mig'd over galvanised. My neighbour heard the commotion and came out for a look. He told me the young guy we had bought from learned to weld in jail. He definately needed a couple more years on his sentence. He had no idea what he was doing.I demolished it with a sledge hammer and started from scratch.
Reply:All they did was move the door chart to the front of the welder and make 1 switch do the job of 2. Could be a pretty handy machine for a guy that only needs to fix a cattle feeder or gate once every month or so and doesn't have the drive/time/funds to really learn the art of welding. The wording of the ad seemed a little stupid, but hey, it's advertising, everybody gets paid a ton to do essentially nothing and usually they have no clue what the product they're writing about actually does.As for people who buy them and think it makes them an instant expert, stupid people have been around since the dawn of man.
Reply:I think it's great that reputable companies are making inexpensive machines that work good and are easy to use.   Not everyone can afford to spend $1500 on a good welding machine.   Not everyone wants to mess with every control.   I like to mess with all the controls, the more controls the better, BUT there is alot of potential to mess up the welds when messing with controls that one doesnt know how to adjust....  If this little machine contributes to someone who is short on money and skills to make some descent welds for a little project they're working on, then great!  I'm all for it.  I think Miller has the right idea with the new Millermatic 140 with Auto Set.   The machine can be operated with the married voltage/wire-speed 'auto set' feature on, or operated normally with seperate wire and voltage settings.   I think that's a great first MIG machine for someone just starting out.
Reply:I'd like to say that Mr MAC tends to remain level headed thoughout all of these emotional issues.  Regarding the EZ welder, I deal with this sort of thing all of the time in Northwest FL.  I make money cleaning up jobs that started out looking like a dead porcupine because someone attempted to weld something with a chinese mig.  The best you can do is hope they are smart enough to call a pro when they get in over their heads.  You can't get angry with the manufacturer.
Reply:I think you'll find this attitude in every skilled trade. DIY'er buys (insert tool here), tries to create (insert project here).......mucks it up....calls professional...whom by the ways gets PAID to fix said muck up.....then complains said person just created business for them.Yeah yeah, safety is always preached. What if someone gets hurt. How about banning alcohol and cigarettes. I fear drunk drivers more than DIY'ers(and I should know, I'm one, and I fear myself sometimes ), and I'll probably get lung cancer from second hand smoke.Please reference can of worms above.  By the way, all statements above are the sole opinions of the author and are in no way meant to be represent the opinions of the masses nor are they intended to cause offense to those that may or may not deserve it. By the way MAC, I just found out you are a former submariner......me too.
Reply:Originally Posted by rat4spd I fear drunk drivers more than DIY'ers(and I should know, I'm one, and I fear myself sometimes ), and I'll probably get lung cancer from second hand smoke..
Reply:I'm not against DIY'ers learning to weld. I'm against manufactures  target marketing mig or flux core welders to people who have never welded before. Mig and flux core are tools for speed not tools to make up for a lack of experience. Learn to walk before trying to run.
Reply:I bought a HTP 200 mig welder and it took me awhile to make good welds.  The local community college wanted me to take 6 months of courses BEFORE I ever got to weld.  So I would read a little and try. Read a little more and try more.  I know wnen I make a good weld now and I teach others in a lot less time than it took me.  Now If I could just get the hang of that tig welder......I bought a bridgeport mill and didn't even know how to turn it on...now I do that for a living.  Everyone learns in different ways, we aren't all the same.  I think many folks fail at learn on your own welding, milling, _____ but not everyone.  And if you think about it didn't we all really learn on our own in the end?  Someone might have pushed us in the right direction but in the end we learn on our own, what works and what doesn't.Thermal Arc 185 TigHTP 200 MigCraftsman O/A1942 Bridgeport Mill12 Ton Hyd PressConsew Walking Foot
Reply:There's a far greater problem with people buying puppies at Christmastime for people who won't take care of them, than there is for buying simplified low-power MIG machines.
Reply:Originally Posted by MAC702There's a far greater problem with people buying puppies at Christmastime for people who won't take care of them, than there is for buying simplified low-power MIG machines.
Reply:There's a far greater problem with people buying puppies at ChristmastimeThat's funny, but almost too sad to be funny, but true nonetheless.
Reply:Originally Posted by wojeepsterI bought a HTP 200 mig welder and it took me awhile to make good welds.