Help with welding vertical

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Hello first I would likes to say hi to all the welders out there. My name Is Mike and I am currently taking a welding class in hopes of becoming a cert welder. So here is my problem we are currently doing 3F and the biggest problem is getting the welds "tight" on each other. I have done many different ways and I keep getting undercut not allot but enough to get the teacher say they are not good welds. So here are the specs the base is 1/2 I am using E7018 rods machine set at DC+ and for the outer weld I have it set at 115 amp and then bring it down to 110 to 105.Uploaded with ImageShack.usUploaded with ImageShack.us
Reply:P.S I would ask my teacher but his answer is always "I showed you once how to do it. You should know by now". Wich he has never showed us the only time he ever ran a bead was on the 2nd week and that was on flat weld. But that is a diffrent issue on its own. So looking at this pics what can you tell.
Reply:Are you using any sort of motion at all when you weld? Usually undercut shows you are not pausing long enough on one side before moving to the other to allow the metal to fill in what you melt out. Running straight stringers with absolutly no motion at all vertical is difficult. You have to watch both sides at once to see if you are filling. You don't need to do a huge weave, a tiny side to side motion will help tremendously. The other thing might be you are moving too slow and the puddle is getting to hot and dripping on you.One of the biggest issue I see with students when they hit vertical is that they haven't learned to see the puddle yet. If you can't see the puddle, you will not be able to succeed in vertical or overhead. Too many get thru flat and horizontal running what I like to refer to as timing patterns. They run at a steady pace and the welds look fine. That doesn't work as well on vertical and they usually can't make it work. Most watch the arc not the puddle. Don't look at the bright light. You need to train yourself to look past it and see the molten puddle. Once you "see" this you will have an "Ah ha!" moment and it will all make sense.To demonstrate this small motion I usually weld a very exageraed weave and have the students try and pay very close attention to every time I stop on the ends and change direction to try and see when the puddle fills and I start back across. Then I'll run the bead again doing the "weave" smaller, and finally with just a small wiggle from side to side. You can sort of think of this as simply making very short horizontal welds stacked on top of one another, Each vertical "segment" is resting on the "shelf" you welded up below..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:No weaving he said only stringers. Now this a old pic I have been working on my puddle control and It's better but I get a over lap and that still wrong. Now would 110 be to hot on stacking what is a good and rating.
Reply:My suggestion would be to push your teacher a bit.  "No you never showed us anything on vertical up.  You showed us flat and Horizontal.  I know this is different and I need some pointers on what to do, what to look for and what I am doing wrong."And that is being nice.  What I would like to say to the instructor in your shoes is "do your bleeping job, you lazy sack and teach SOMETHING."  But frankly the nice approach should get you there.  Make your point - this is different, and I need to see what to do.  And seriously if he really won't help, then he is worthless and you need to make some noise up the chain in the school after giving him all the chances to come through.  Otherwise you are paying for basically nothing.  If you go to any store any pay them money do you leave with nothing?  Of course not.  Same here.  Irrespective of the teacher-student relationship, you are paying money for something.  You'd better make you get "it".-DaveXMT304 with: 22A Feeder, or HF251 Hi Freq DC TIG air cooled
Reply:Lausd union teacher 25plus.  And we have and nothing happends. We bite our lip on so many issues since we don't want to be in the **** list. Since he is the one that test us out for our aws we known students that never passed the visual and just drop off. I will post a new pic of my current welds on Tuesday night.
Reply:Are you using 1/8" rods?I like mine about 105-115 depending on the machine. Keep the rod angle at 90 degrees or have the back of the rod with a slight lean back. Keep a good tight arc evenly across the rod. If one side of the rod is touching a hump and the other side has a larger gap to the plate, you will get that undercut.Always keep them flat and smooth starting out, it will only make the next pass easier.Hope I didn't confuse you any......games on....lol.Semper FiJesus may have been a Carpenter, but his dad was a Millwright" A grinder and a can of paint, will make a welder what he aint' "I've done so much, with so little, for so long, that now I can do anything with nothing!
Reply:Well that sux.  You could always try to Tom Sawyer him.  "You didn't show us.  You telling me you don't know how to do Vertical Up?"  Maybe that route would push him to help.And he is still a lazy sack.-DaveXMT304 with: 22A Feeder, or HF251 Hi Freq DC TIG air cooled
Reply:Hand him the stinger and ask him to burn 1 or 2 rods so you can watch and see what you are doing wrong.Any good teacher would grab that stinger in a heart beat.Edit: I should say, Any good teacher that can weld would grab that stinger in a heart beat.Semper FiJesus may have been a Carpenter, but his dad was a Millwright" A grinder and a can of paint, will make a welder what he aint' "I've done so much, with so little, for so long, that now I can do anything with nothing!
Reply:Rod osccilation and weave are different animals. A slight osccilation will help. How many hours of weld time do you have. Yes the instructor should be helping but putting time under the hood can be the biggest teacher.
Reply:The other thing is to pool resources among yourselves.  Brainstorm with your classmates and watch each other.  Try to find someone in the class who is doing the verts successfully.  Your vertical stringers are not too bad for beginning.  Certainly you need more practice but it goes a lot faster if you can watch other peoples technique and machine settings.Something that you might look closely at... the slag is more of a yellow colour and the metal is kinda orange... I am not good with colours.  Work at identifying which is which.  People often think the metal is rolling down when they are only seeing the flux.Last edited by lotechman; 09-24-2011 at 12:13 AM.
Reply:I think your teacher is just plain lazzy, or he doesn't know how to run a vertical up stringer.  In my class our instructors have to pass a weld test for all the common types of welding and positions,  they will gladly show you if you are having any problems. I have 6 grand left to pay for my first time going to Alfred state after having a lazzy *** instructor who didn't do **** other than sit in his office and talk about his life experiences at the bar.  If your instructor doesn't start helping you and your other class mates, then you and your class need to go have a chat with the superintendent.Lincoln pro mig 180Lincoln Square Wave Tig 300/wp 20/home built water cooler Victor, Purox, Harris, O/A welding/cutting setupsVintage Craftsman drill pressVintage Craftsman/Atlas 12"x 36'' lathe7''x 12'' w/c band saw Everlast 140 st
Reply:If you're trying to weld vertical stringers pay more attention to the bead as it forms & not where you're headed. Hold a tight arc & try and keep your upward movement smooth & steady. Bead shape is determined by your upward speed, starting to sag? Speed up, getting too narrow & stringy? Slow down. Clean the 1st bead, let your base metal cool to the point you can just touch it with a bare hand & overlap the 1st bead by 1/2 for the next pass. If you have time to practice flat stringers do it until you get them good then just transfer the same movement to the vertical posistion.
Reply:I agree that the teacher is most likely lazy, he could have issues that prevent him from being able to run a good bead such as shakiness though. The welding instructor I had was old and his hands had gotten pretty shaky. He did try to show what to do but some things were pretty hard for him to do even though he knew how; what he was good at is watching someone run a bead and give pointers as we were laying the bead down and explaining what we were doing wrong or what we could do to improve. He didn't do this unless you asked for help though.HH 187Miller Bluestar1EAHP AlphaTig 200X
Reply:From my experience when welding what are essentially the toes of the fillet, make sure that your electrode isn't favoring either side, in other words, try to make sure that the angle from left and from right, or base metal and previous weld are the same. I've found that this holds true more so when the metal is very hot.
Reply:Yes 1/8 rods. I will try to control the puddle more in this pic i was trying a few different way and non worked since I was getting to much under cut.
Reply:You might also want to take a grinder to that practice piece or get a new piece to start over with if they will let you. Often I find students who mess up on their 1st bead will keep fighting that and getting worse each pass. You don't usually have the skills yet to compensate for the bad bead that was run 1st and these issues will keep telegraphing thru and cause a great deal of frustration. Sometimes a few minutes with a grinder to get a nice smooth piece to work on will help solve some of the issues and keep the stress and frustration down..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:What I am going to tell you seems backwards, but hang with me.  What I see happening is your bead profile is too tall and not washing into the base.  New guys tend to have too severe of a rod angle thus long arcing.  This causes the all sorts of problems.  I would first turn my heat up to 125 - 135 and then weld with my rod at a near 90 degrees to the plate.  you can point the rod up only slightly and keep a short arc.  The only time I would turn my heat down is if I am blowing through the base metal.
Reply:Originally Posted by Scott YoungWhat I am going to tell you seems backwards, but hang with me.  What I see happening is your bead profile is too tall and not washing into the base.  New guys tend to have too severe of a rod angle thus long arcing.  This causes the all sorts of problems.  I would first turn my heat up to 125 - 135 and then weld with my rod at a near 90 degrees to the plate.  you can point the rod up only slightly and keep a short arc.  The only time I would turn my heat down is if I am blowing through the base metal.
Reply:Originally Posted by angel85lxI will try this. I have a 45 angle foward hand
Reply:Originally Posted by Scott YoungThat is way too much.
Reply:Did he fail reading also?Semper FiJesus may have been a Carpenter, but his dad was a Millwright" A grinder and a can of paint, will make a welder what he aint' "I've done so much, with so little, for so long, that now I can do anything with nothing!
Reply:Ive seen worse LOL... could tell a lot better if they were chipped and wire brushed.  I always use a lisght side to side on a vertical.... If I have to run stringers I just dont hold the toes as long as with a weave... keep it tight and move fast across the face of the weld.
Reply:Originally Posted by angel85lx "I showed you once how to do it. You should know by now". .