Farming-- need help selecting cutting and welding setups

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Hi,I've just started farming in western NY and have discovered every farmer has a torch and welding rig--and with good reason. I've never used anything other than a propane torch for heat and a gas blow torch.   I have a rusty disc harrow (plow) and almost busted my thumb trying to free up a rusted/frozen 3/4 inch bolt.  Now I'm paying someone to cut off a bunch of them.I need a torch to cut stuff like this in the field- so it needs to be portable-- could be relatively small tanks (? 40cu ft) or something.I will eventually  (probably next summer after I build a pole barn/shop on my farmland) need a welder.  I'v already paid others to do welding and cutting I think (hope) I can do myself.I've read a bit and was thinking about oxy-actelyene for cutting-- but stumbled on oxy propane and that looked really promising for my purposes (don't think I'll try welding with Oxy-acetylene-- the "sticky chart" says it doesn't work well on surfaces that arent clean and farm equiment usually is not clean-- at least in my situation.  Since I won't be welding with oxy acetylene, would oxy-propane or something else be better for cutting?Welding-- when I get power!! Have read that MIG is the easiest to learn and 220v would be needed for heavy welding of farm equipment (I think!)Can someone please tell me if I'm on the right track, and maybe provide me with some more specifics?Thanks,Bob
Reply:Oxy accet is a good choice altough propane cuts nice also dont rule out brazing with oxy acet it works nice on thin sheet metal or steel hydraulic lices that are cracked. Good torches can run either fuel just buy switching tips as long as you are changing a acet torch to propane and not the other way. Mig is easy to get a good looking weld but looks can be decieving if you have too cold of welds it will look good but not be fused to the base metal. AZlso mig you have to have cleaner surfaces than stick. A decent 220 volt mig will cost 4-5 times a stick welder does also.Millermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer
Reply:OA will work for cutting and heating up frozen nuts and bolts to get them loose. You can weld with it in a pinch. Harbor Freight sells a set with small bottles. The gas won't last very long but in your situation you may not need it often. Don't have the HF set so can't comment. Welding on farm implements is definitely a stick thing unless you want to spend considerable time prepping the surface. Just throw on a stick of 6011 or 6010 and let the sparks fly on the rusty metal. Then the root can be covered with 7018 since the 601x lays down fresh metal. At least that is my experience on the farm.One of the small DC stick inverters would be fine for what you describe. Don't go much below a 200 amp machine if you intend to hardface.MIG requires gas (except for flux core) and is really best as an inside a shop welder. With the heavy metal that is on many implements it takes a lot of expertise and experience to get welds that will hold with MIG. Not so much a problem with stick although you still have to know what you are doing.
Reply:Originally Posted by rvander1Since I won't be welding with oxy acetylene, would oxy-propane or something else be better for cutting?
Reply:A 40 cf acetylene will get you by with light cuts, but I'd go with at least a 75 cf acetylene or propane.There's an issue about over drawing acetylene. Acetylene is stored dissolved in acetone in a porous lining in the cylinder. You need to use acetylene only as fast as it can come out of solution. The rule is usually 1/7th or 1/10th the cylinder capacity per hour. A 40 cf cylinder is borderline on even the smaller tips and is way too small for the medium or larger heating tips. You'll want to match the 75 cf cylinder with an 80 or 100 cf O2 cylinder to stay portable. This sized set is easy to move even over semi rough ground with a basic pneumatic tire hand truck, and it's small enough most can easily load the cylinders individually into the back of a pickup for transport to where the job is.Propane works well for cutting, I'd still want at least an 80 of O2 to match a standard 20 lb propane cylinder. expect you'll need quite a few refills even on that size O2 cylinder, before the propane runs out. The big plus with propane is that you don't have the over draw issues you do with acetylene. That means you can run big heating tips and rosebuds to free up stuck parts. You just need to get the right tips \for propane, though most acetylene tips will work.As far as welding is concerned, stick welding is usually king with farm equipment. It takes a pretty big mig to equal one of the basic 230v "buzz boxes" that can be had pretty cheap used. Stick is great for outdoor work on heavy steel. Mig isn't the greatest because the wind blows away the gas shield. You can also run flux core wire thru a mig machine. It's sort of like welding with a continuous stick welder. However it takes a fairly expensive "mig" to match the ability of a stick machine. A used Stick machine will run you anywhere from $50-200 for an AC only unit and a nice used AC/Dc machine ( preferred) will run you maybe $500 tops ( often quite a bit less). A decent 230v mig will set you back at least $800-1000 at the minimum, and to really match the stick machine you'd need a machine that will probably set you back over $2000. Keep in mind these would be shop machines that will need a decent amount of power, more than most 6K gensets will put out usually. If you plan to do field work away from power, you'll either need a pretty good sized gen set (8kw min for the mig, 10-15 kw for most transformer stick machines) or you will need to look at an engine driven welder. That usually mean you'll need to learn stick unless you really want to make a big investment.Welding is not all that easy to learn on your own, at least to do it right. It takes a lot of practice and practice doing it right, or you're just learning bad habits that will be hard to unlearn later. Mig is easier for most to learn, but is also notorious for making good looking welds that have little strength if you don't know what you are doing. Add to this that most equipment repairs usually have to be done "out of position" where you need to be able to weld vertically or overhead as well as flat or horizontal. Most DIY guys never can learn to do decent welds in anything but flat with out some training either with mig or stick.If you are serious, I'd strongly recommend looking at local tech schools and community colleges in the area and see if they offer a night class in welding. When you sit down and add up what wire/gas. sticks, material, electric and so on would cost you to do the same amount of practice, not to mention the instruction, a class is usually stupid cheap. If you are serious and really apply yourself, you will often be able to use more materials and such than what you paid for the class. Add to that you'll usually have access to much better equipment than most are willing to shell out at the start. It only takes one bad weld of yours to really F things up. You'll spend more than the class would have cost fixing your screw up..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:For the kind of cutting you do to repair farm implements I can't imagine not having an OA torch.  It has a few advantages over plasma that are relevant for farm repairs:Thickness: OA can cut arbitrarily thick material - I have seen bits and pieces of some pretty thick steel on large implements.  If you have tips from 00 - 2 you will cut anything that shows up on a farm. Plasma has thickness limitations proportional to the $$$ spent.Portability: When you need to drag your cutting to the problem it is easier to haul a few tanks than a compressor and generator.Welding: Don't dismiss OA as a welding process too quickly - it is really nice for joining thin metal when your other process is SMAW.  Once you drag your OA rig to the repair, you might just use it to weld things back together so that you can get the gear into your shop to complete the repair.Hobart LX235Victor 250 Oxy-Acetylene Rig (welding and cutting)Bobcat 773F-350, 1999, 4x4, 16' 10K# trailerOutdoor Wood Burner - 10 cords/year
Reply:First, thanks for the help!Looks like OA and a night class might be the way to go-- with maybe a stick welder later.  Right now there is no electric power on my farmed property-- so just OA for starters.  If I get a "good" OA setup, i can use it with propane?  I thought I read somewhere that you need a larger supply hose for the propane (maybe 3/8 ID instead of 1/4 that seems to be standard OA)-- is this right??Also-- not sure how expensive I have to go with the OA setup-- they seem to vary quite a bit-- I guess I need a fair amount of horsepower in the setup to cut farm implements, but what parameters in the purchase do I need to look at (hose ID, tips, regulators, etc).  I won't be doing this as a trade-- but I don't want to get a setup that won't do what i need either--I found a setup at Grizzly H4926: "Description Kit includes: Oxygen and acetylene regulators, torch handle with check valves, cutting attachment, cutting tip (size #0), welding nozzles (sizes #0, #2, #4), heating nozzle with rosebud tip, 15-foot double line DAYCO™ hose, flint striker, goggles with shade #5 lens, tip cleaner and protective storage case. Durable oxygen-acetylene outfit for cutting, welding and brazing. Cuts up to 6" and welds or brazes up to 1/2" with appropriate tips. Full 2-1/2" diameter oxygen and acetylene regulators for optimal performance. Torch handle includes check valves for safety. Stainless steel and brass construction for long life. "It's $170 bucks-- would something like this serve my purposes?Thanks again,Bob
Reply:I vote for acetylene not propane - you can't weld with oxy propane.Get a Victor medium duty torch kit, Northern Tool has them for $199, Tractor SUpply has them for nearly the same price.Avoid the "Victor Style" kits - those are typically Chicom crap.  Spend a few bucks more for the Victor brand name.I recommend the Oxy Acet video from Northern Tool, you will probably be able to teach yourself OA welding if you are patient and stick with it (I did). The principles are simple, practice is the hard part - it is something you just have to DO in  order to build skill.Hobart LX235Victor 250 Oxy-Acetylene Rig (welding and cutting)Bobcat 773F-350, 1999, 4x4, 16' 10K# trailerOutdoor Wood Burner - 10 cords/year
Reply:I don't know what your agriculture aspirations are further down the road, but Miller makes a fairly affordable machine called the Bobcat that is rather capable for the types of repairs you would need to do (SMAW, 200 amps and below), and also has the benefit of being used as a generator.  There is also a 3-phase output model that was designed with agriculture in mind as the 3-phase power output can power irrigation systems.
Reply:An engine driven welder would seem to be the best choice, especially in your case where you say you have no electrical power at the farm yard yet. Portability and power generation are 2 big reasons for this. You can take the welder to the field to fix broken equipment rather than have to bring the equipment to the welder. A Miller Bobcat can power grinders, drills, saws and lights while still being able to weld with it at the same time. A 240 V stick welder would be cheaper to purchase than the Bobcat, but would require a seperate generator for field repairs. By the time you got both, the cost would probably be close to what you could get an engine drive for that could do it all. Not to mention only one unit to load up rather than two. A good set up in this situation would be a small trailer with the engine drive welder and an O/A torch along with a tool box for the other necessities. Mine is small enough to be pulled by an S-10 pick up or even an ATV or riding lawn mower. When needed, hitch it up and go. This may also allow you to do jobs for others, just like your paying someone now to do the work for you. Talk to some of the farmers in your area and see what kind of rigs they have. I bet most of them have engine drive welders themselves for the same reasons I've already mentioned. Attached ImagesLast edited by Bistineau; 11-30-2011 at 11:25 AM.
Reply:You have already got quit a bunch of input, I will add some more.Just air acetylene will do a lot in terms freeing up rusty nuts and pressing pins out possible.  Air acetylene like a plumbers torch of course has lots of sized tips.  I only use one tip it seems about right for 3/4 inch copper pipe.  The 40 cubic foot acetylene tank, an adapter to go to a full sized regulator and the regulator yeilds a nice place to carry the tank much easier and very often all that is necessary instead of the heavy oxygen cylinder.  I like to lease the largest oxygen cylinder possible.  How far away is a welding store?Whai I consider large welding sticks 5/32 or 3/16 7024 don't really require much skill you kind of just let the thing crumble down.  You pretty much have to position it flat.  On the "mig"  the dual shield cored wire works well for me and I am confident it melts in.As for the torch, the combination type with a 90 degree cutting attachment is great for cutting out pieces to weld however it is nice to have a dedicated cutting torch with an angled head for cutting off nuts and using trimming or gouging tipe.franLast edited by fran...k.; 11-30-2011 at 12:08 PM.Reason: spelling
Reply:Thanks to everyone-- I really appreciate the responses since I know you all probably get this type of question repeatedly, but some of my circumstances are a bit unique: farm equipment will require heavier duty welding, no electric on my farmed land (right now).I just bought a 1000watt inverter that will run all my hand power tools-- sawsall, drills, grinders etc.-- so I don't want to go the generator route right now.My friend who is welding and cutting my disc harrow is a good guy and I think I'll get a OA setup and get some scrap metal from him and try to weld with OA-- doesn't have to be pretty on farm implements--just strong.  So maybe i can get by with just OA-- if I can't, then I'll need the Bobcat, or genset and stick welder unit.gwiley, thanks for the suggestion on a specific brand and model-- because, as I mentioned, they seem to range all over the map in prices.  I assume a "medium duty" Victor will handle the relatively heavy cutting and welding (if I can get good enough at it) for farm implements--Thanks again,Bob
Reply:One more question-- I just looked at the specs on the Victor medium duty OA torch --Northern tools, and it says it will cut 1/2 inch-- does this mean it would not easily cut a 3/4 inch bolt with maybe a 1 3/8  inch rusted nut on top of it?  Would I be able to "chip away" at this from different sides-- or should I get a torch that has more horsepower.  Don't want to be under powered cutting-- please advise--Thanks, Bob
Reply:When I took my 1st welding class years ago we had to weld up solid a 3" x 3" piece of angle iron and then cut it in 1/2 with the torch. To prove a point to another student the instructor handed me the torch with the smallest tip on it to cut my piece since I was 1st done and had quite a bit of torch experience already. The trick is to get the cut line hot 1st if you don't have a big tip, have your settings right and adjust your travel speed accordingly. That 00 tip went right thru the center of the angle ( almost 2 1/2") when it was set like a ^. Once you got the cut started you just had to keep it going and slow down as it got thicker. Small items like bolts and such aren't that hard because it doesn't take them all that long to get hot enough to cut. 3/4" plate though would be much harder to do it you had a long cut to make. I've torched off quite a few 3/4" bolts even with a small Victor torch and a 00 tip that my buddy had. True I'd rather cut with my dedicated cutting rig and a bigger tip, but it's not something that can't be done..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by rvander1One more question-- I just looked at the specs on the Victor medium duty OA torch --Northern tools, and it says it will cut 1/2 inch-- does this mean it would not easily cut a 3/4 inch bolt with maybe a 1 3/8  inch rusted nut on top of it?  Would I be able to "chip away" at this from different sides-- or should I get a torch that has more horsepower.  Don't want to be under powered cutting-- please advise--Thanks, Bob
Reply:There is spring steel in farm implements.  The one implement you have mentioned is ground contact.  It helps to know what it is.  Preheat will help but even still not everything is weldable usually it is bolted together.  I weld on implements usually upgrading from category ! pins to category 2 pins and placement.  Sometimes welding up and re drilling oblonged holes is needed, It is possible sometimes one might want to cut out a piece with the sloppy hole and start fresh.  The oxy acetylene will work pretty well for stuff like guards for belts which have cracks but will warp and distort more than an electric process.  Oxy acetylene is nice and enjoyable to do but try the hammer and vice test and then decide.
Reply:In the past I've worked for local farmers around here and here is list of the tools I used. Lincoln SA200 (because thats what I had on my truck at the time)cutting torch (oxy-acy) with probably a #1 Victor Tip.7018 3/32, and 1/8 rods running either 100/40 or 150/40 (I guess )A grinder with a grinding wheelA  grinder with a wire brushA chipping hammerA real hammerA viceSome other small hand tools like a wrap around, c-clamps, etc.Fixing broken farming stuff isn't rocket science by any means but depending on what needs welded it might as well be sometimes.  lol.  All you need to know is ----- when to call in a professional welder.  As for all the other stuff?  Learn to build and weld it up yourself.  Being able to do that can be very satisfying.  lolBut for an occasional weld a SA200 is too much machine.  To much to worry with. lolGood luck manLast edited by slowhand; 12-02-2011 at 07:31 PM.
Reply:Where abouts in Western New York state? I still know a half dozen guys out there that willl help you out if you ask them? Initial investments for occasional use can be expensive!
Reply:Liked mentioned earlier, the torch you mentioned is capable of cutting 6" if the bottles & tips are properly sized. When you buy a torch new you usually only get 1 tip with it, used you may get several. In my opinion, I would buy a 000, 0, 1 & 3 cutting tips and a rosebud heating tip to start.For the welder, I would definitely go with a portable machine. The inverter sounds nice but it can't compare to the generator part of the welder. If you buy one with enough power, down the road if you buy a mig it can be ran with the portable. A guy I work with did this and his portable welder (Bobcat 250 I think) runs his Millermatic 210 with dualshield wire for various things around his farm. Scenario: Cold morning & something is broke & tractor battery is dead. Bobcat running with tractor block heater and battery charger plugged in, 1000 watt work light on, grinder prepping metal to be fixed and then stick welding the break. If you have an inverter large enough to do everything but the welding, you could sell it to buy a decent portable welder.Millermatic 200Hobart Handler 120Victor O/A & Ramco BandsawLincoln 225 ACSnapOn AD HoodMiller XMT304/22AHypertherm Powermax 1650 G3Lincoln Idealarc DC600 w/Extreme 12 VSMiller Digital Elite "Joker"
Reply:I'd avoid offshore cheapo OA outfits. http://www.shopfloortalk.com/forums/...986#post455986The inexpensive Smith Toughcut CGA-510 acetylene outfit plus an LP cutting tip would be fine and last many years. You can begin with Oxy-LP (which you can braze with too) since most rural folk have plenty of BBQ LP jugs handy.A quick way to get dry workspace that won't care about snow loading is to use a forty-foot shipping container. They are very easy to work with and you can attach a barn to them or otherwise integrate them with structures. No foundation needed, just set the ends on something suitable like a railroad tie.
Reply:you cant just start farming lol but hey we have a torch they dont make anymore it works good and also a victor it works good too these guys dont know crap bout torch they think victor is bad its not and welder lincoln or miller staiotnary otr portable we have a miller thunderbolt xl 225 amp and a miller portable 225 amp and a lincoln tombstone 225 ampQuality is our policy.
Reply:I can tell you what I use, for cutting the shanks off of my chisel plows and vibra shank, in the past it has been o/a with victor torches but I have to go about 50 miles in one direction and 100 in the other for my o/a products so this year when I used a Longevity Weldall 200PI for cutting the nuts off the shanks with the 50 amp plasma cutter, I purchased one a couple of years ago then bought a second for my off farm work; while hot anything that has not been cut off I whack with a hammer and it releases well.It also handles my stick welding.Anything else and for some of the neighbors I use a Thermal Arc fabricator 190 amp mig,with .030 e70s6, but have a 50lb roll of .045 e70s6 for any further welding on thicker steel, I did not feel 030 was doing me any favours and have switched to .045 e70s6. The draw back is the 6 foot torch lead not being long enough and wind.The thermal arc was purchased on a promotion from acklands with victor torches.Use propane because in all seriousness I doubt you are going to do any welding with a torch just cutting, preheat takes longer but they will last you forever with a 100lb tank.I have found very little of farm welding being within the realm of the capabilty of o/a torch, and being pragmatic don't use it much when their are other ways, and my tanks are 120's, I wouldn't go lower.I would probably suggest looking for an older Lincoln engine driven genset for your farm work and they can be found for $1000-$1500.00.Miller is always pricy, but you would be able to run a feeder off you genset.Also another option would be going to farm auctions looking for buys on electrodes and a stick welders in the spring.