Miller Synchro 200 vs. Thermal Arc 185

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OK, so I'm a hobby welder and in a position to buy a quality machine Thanks to all the posters (especially the regulars) with all the info. I have, and am still, learning much.Limited experience here with a 110v Hobart GMAW that burns through thin sheet and needs a lot of preheat for anything substantial. Um, yeah, no good. I got that already.So I like the control available for GTAW from a thickness standpoint and the ability to properly fuse prepped joints that function as intended. Speed and efficiency are not a factor as this is a "free time" activity. What I am actually going to use this machine for is still in the imaginative stage. I understand the "Buy as big as you can afford" mentality. I have successfully talked myself out of the Chinese options that seem to be a "no brainer just buy it you hobby welder with no needs/experience, plus they are sooooo cheap!" I have experience with Chinese products that ARE "designed" (really intended) to be throw away stuff and that just ain't what I'm looking for.So with no guidance other than searching all through these crazy interwebs and internets I think I may have narrowed my search down to the Thermal Arc Arcmaster 185 and the Miller Syncrowave 200. I realize the inverter vs. not portability scenario and this is not a real issue for me as most work will be done in my 24'x24' man cave/garage. By the way I have 220v 60a service available for this area properly wired up and running.weldingsuppliesfromioc.com has these two units for sale within $100 from each other both being under $2500 ready to go if I hook up gas and plug 'em in.After a long winded approach, what are your thoughts between the two? I appreciate responses from owners and non-owners alike. What didn't I mention that I should consider like resale value, support, versatility, and so on?Please realize that this is my first post so take it easy on my fragile soul but I prefer honest responses versus a cheap "Chinese" alternative .Thanks >>>>>
Reply:Someone get a rope!
Reply:Originally Posted by Jay OSomeone get a rope!
Reply:All smiles and good fun. I about about to spend a couple grand to support some (what I think are...) decent companies for some good learning and fun. I have a crap job making 40k/yr and I enjoy welding and am asking for some decent feedback. Jay, have I asked a silly question? Maybe I gave silly supporting info? I'm not sure myself. I can handle a 'f off and go back to your day job response'. But what do you think between the two machines?Thanks
Reply:I was j/k. The amp diff is a non issue there are time that I have looked up at my machine and it was showing 199 amps. There are no hidden menus you just press the main button/amps and it will scoll thru the various adjustment, easy/no brainer. You say you have a 60 amp circuit but it is still nice knowing your using less power. The biggest benefit to an inverter is have more adjustability on the AC side of things when doing Al. To be honest I most stick but when something needs to be tigged I definitely like giving it a try and 185 amps will let you do quite a bit of tigging.
Reply:I have the TA 185 and make part of my living with it.  Its a good machine.  I too have seen it put out 199 amps.  I think its been around for about 5 years.  I use it sometimes daily, sometimes for days in a row.  It welds aluminum better than a transformer any day and uses 1/3 less electricitylDo as you wish.  Its not Maroon Vs Blue. Almost all of my welders are Lincoln.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I went with the Syncrowave 200 a few years back when I bought mine. I was unaware of the TA 185 at the time. Now, it would be a tough choice between the 2. I've used a lot of Syncrowaves  from the older 180's  a couple 200's and the tech schools 250's, and all have been great. Even the ones at the tech school have virtually no issues and I see how the kids can F things up.The smaller size of the TA185 would be nice, but in reality where I keep the Syncro 200 is pretty much unused space anyways, so that's not a big issue. Millers big in my area, so service wise if I ever had any issues, I know I'd have no problems there. Not sure about the TA.Overall I think the two machines are pretty evenly matched. Which ever one you choose will be fine. The only thing I'd think about some is that it's fairly easy to find used Syncrowaves on CL if you look a bit. Most are very lightly used "hobby" machines or were from small shops that really didn't do much tig. People need to get rid of items they simply don't use much right now due to the economy. That meand you can often pick up a nice Syncrowave 200 for $1200-1500 and the older Syncrowave 180's for $1000-1200 and some times even less. That would heavily tip the scales in favor of a Syncrowave in my book if I was looking for a machine like this today. I don't really see many of any of the Ta products on CL near me. That might be a function of how big red and blue are in my area, or it might simply be a function of how many red/blue machines are out there vs TA's in general..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Thanks for the feedback guys. Available service and support is a consideration up to the point that Millers seem to be servicable anywhere and yet never (rarely I suppose) really need it. The additional features of an inverter seem to have a cool factor from my standpoint (unexperienced) but I have heard nothing that would take away from the quality and usefulness of the synchro.I think I'll take some of the advice and look at CL some more for potentially picking up a used machine. I really just wanted some reassurance that there wasn't a major issue between the selection as I couldn't really find anything much negative for either one.Thanks
Reply:giving the size of your shop, it would almost be a no-brainer for me..I would go with an inverter based machine, I like my Thermal arc 185, i've had mine for right at 6yrs, high quality unit..HTP Invertig 221 is on sale, I have heard good things about them.http://www.usaweld.com/ProductDetail...ode=70221-12.5Actually think I would go with the htp221 if I were buying right now..tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:Buff... Er.. I live in Metro Detroit... and I gotta ask.. What's the goal here?  If you want to learn and practice welding (and have access to complete machine shop) one awesome alternative is to join I3Detroit.org hacker space learn on their equipment.  Minimal fee, they have large transformer TIG machine with A/C capability.. 24x7 access, etc.  Very good deal.  I think one of the guys there is also using a Miller Dynasty, but I haven't been there in awhile.  (I'm on assignment for nine months to Chicago..)You could probably try both a large transformer machine, and an inverter, get lots of beads down and make a truly informed decision on your own.  Build a project or two at that facility, then purchase what you need for your own home shop.(Oh, and they have lots of other stuff there as well.. CNC plasma (soon!), CNC bridgeport, Hobby lathe and mill, full size lathe and bridgeport, complete electronics lab, CNC 50watt laser, complete woodshop.. you get the idea...Its a pretty nice place to learn some new activities, at a very reasonable price... Last I looked it was only $40 / month.  For the fancy equipment, you will have to be trained and qualified, etc, but that shouldn't be too difficult to do.  The only thing you can't really do there is work on extended duration automotive projects.)Not sure where you are going with your projects, but this might work well for you. --zip
Reply:Originally Posted by brucergiving the size of your shop, it would almost be a no-brainer for me..I would go with an inverter based machine, I like my Thermal arc 185, i've had mine for right at 6yrs, high quality unit..HTP Invertig 221 is on sale, I have heard good things about them.http://www.usaweld.com/ProductDetail...ode=70221-12.5Actually think I would go with the htp221 if I were buying right now..
Reply:The TA machines that I've used have performed well enough, (better than most) but I love my Syncrowaves, & I will buy more of them in the future.Er.. I live in Metro Detroit... and I gotta ask.. What's the goal here? If you want to learn and practice welding (and have access to complete machine shop) one awesome alternative is to join I3Detroit.org hacker space learn on their equipment. Minimal fee, they have large transformer TIG machine with A/C capability.. 24x7 access, etc. Very good deal. I think one of the guys there is also using a Miller Dynasty, but I haven't been there in awhile. (I'm on assignment for nine months to Chicago..)
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWOverall I think the two machines are pretty evenly matched. Which ever one you choose will be fine. The only thing I'd think about some is that it's fairly easy to find used Syncrowaves on CL if you look a bit.
Reply:Hey guys so I checked out the YouTube videos on the Invertig 221 and it looks like the max ac pulse is 10 pps. I know I'm a rookie and the immediate usefulness is limited but it seems that some of the other pulse-capable machines go way higher up to 100-200 plus pps. Any thoughts on this? Is the high speed pulse useful for anyone so much so that it would influence a buying decision? So freeking much to learn.Many thanks.
Reply:Can one hijack his own thread? I dunno but may find out What if I were to ask Thermal Arc 185 vs. Invertig 211...... Hmmmm?I don't have anything against Miller. Well except that it is the Top Of The Line and I am far from an industrial type user (and convincing my wife to buy the Miller is difficult because she is keen to this brand)I apologize guys, now that I've 'broken the seal' and posted, my questions are coming to me at a faster rate than I can expect answers. I have spent so much time lurking (and learning) from you guys I really value your input. I realize that I have not really put out any specs as far as my requirements go. That's because I don't have many except getting the most for my money.As always, thanks in advance for your thoughts. Feel free to call me an idiot and tell me to buy a machine and get some experience on it before asking for the all worldly knowledge.  <<< thats a Bacardi 'n Coke (diet) LOL
Reply:So all the literature I can find online about the HTP Invertig 221 says "High speed DC pulse" but nothing about high speed AC pulse except for the youtube vids that say AC pulse max is 10 pps (pulses per second) which by comparison seems low. It does have the independent DCEP/DCEN amperage control (even if it seems to be an indirect control..... DCEP control is a percentage of DCEN, or so it seems).What is a silly newbie like me supposed to make of this..... um, other than looking on kraigslist for a used Synchro and fuggaboutit!
Reply:You've probably got a long ways to go learning before the higher functions like frequency control, balance and pulse would make any difference at all to you. It's certainly possible to do very nice welds with out all the bells and whistles. Zaps work with his antique is a great example.Keep in mind you can always upgrade to a nicer machine later. I'd have loved to buy a Dynasty 200 when I wanted to learn tig. That said the extra cost wasn't in the cards at the time, and I doubt I'd have a need right now for those extra functions with where I'm at in the learning process, and you never really stop learning. I can still get a large portion of my money back on my Syncrowave 200 if I chose to sell it tomorrow. I could probably get back almost 80-90% if I'd bought a used machine vs the 60% or so with the new one. Still when you figure how long I've had the machine and what I got out of it, it's still a good investment. As you keep pushing up the price, pretty soon you'll be in the range of a used Dynasty. If I was going to shell out serious cash for a top of the line inverter, that's the place I'd put my money.I'm not familiar with the HTP machines so I can't add anything there. I couldn't find enough hard data to draw any conclusions at this point, so personally I'd pass on that one myself and stick with a proven unit. If they are as good as the Miller's and the TA's, I doubt you'd go wrong with any of the three..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Every welder I have spoken with who have a HTP machine are very satisfied with their investments.  I looked at them when I was interested in a TIG  machine but missed the sale he was running on Ebay so I bought a Miller at a good discount from Welding supplies at IOC.  Either machine will give the average home user a powefull and versatlie piece of gear that is unlikely to fail due to hard use any time soon.  So it really boils down to your comfort level and your budget but I would not be scared of either one or the TA machine either.  Just remember to get a few spare tungs, colletts and collet holders as well as a good selection of stainless brushes and prep materials to go along withthe machine.  Consumables are available readilly but should be kept in stock especially during the initial learning curve since you will dip the tung and make all manner of mistake till you master the hand eye coordination and puddle control.  Above all, dont get discouraged and keep practicing with a specific goal in every practice session till it all comes naturally.  I keep a note book of amp, tungs and all the other adjustments I use to repeat welds and to stay away from stuff that doesn't work too.  Saves time, frustration and materials if you do it that way too.BobI'm spending my Kids inheritance, I dont like him that much anyway!!!!!!Enuff tools to do the job, enough sense to use em.Anybody got a spare set of kidneys?  Trade?
Reply:You may want to hold out till spring.  Apparently Miller is rolling out a new line of Dynasty's for 2012.  That should drop the price of the old ones a bit if you're considering used.  I had a Synchro 250 and got rid of it because of it's size and electric requirements.  I have a TA now and actually lie it better than the Synchro, but at first I did not.  The Synchros have AC balance control, but only go to 68% EN.  The TA inverters go to 90% EN.  The big difference to me is the AC frequency control.  you don't get that on the transformer machine.   Turning up the frequency gives you a tighter arc with more penetration that can allow you to weld thicker material with less amps.  So with Helium mix, I could do 1/4" aluminum with the TA without a problem.  IDK if the Synchro could with the fixed 60 Hz frequency.  My TA AC frequency only goes to 150 Hz, but the Dynasty's go to 250.    Dont have enough experience to know how much difference that would make in the real world.   I bought my TA used from the original owner.  It sits on top of a spare fridge now, instead of being next to it.   Now I have room for more tools.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Thanks for all the input guys!It's all very much appreciated. It's even fun to learn every one's take on this stuff when I don't yet have a unit to burn up a boat load of metal & consumables.  I'll make mistakes to be sure and won't be able to lay down a decent bead for a while no matter what the heck I'm using, but that's fine. It's all part of it like anything else. I'll finish up my car hauler that I'm making with my 110v mig first and then get a real machine! (haha just kidding guys) No barefoot stick in the grass splattering all over frame steel for me!!!! References to those Danny welding vids may not be appropriate but I couldn't help it!Anyhow I'll pick something up and it's guaranteed that you'll hear back from me with pic captions that say something like "Help, what's wrong with these beads?"Thanks for all the help already
Reply:I was in the same boat as you.  I don't think I would buy a new Sync.  I ended up buying a loaded out Sync 250 with a cooler, bottles, torch, etc for $1500.  I haven't used a TA, but that was my other serious consideration if I was going to buy something new, however, the Sync came along and it was too good of a deal to pass up.  I figured if I really wanted to upgrade at some point, I would be able to get most, if not all of my money out of it if I sell it.  I have been using it on a 50A breaker with no problems so far.  I haven't really cranked it up though, but it seems to weld 1/8" aluminum no problem and doesn't even break a sweat.  The two major drawbacks, were power (I got quoted about $500 to run 100A service from my panel to get full power, along with just consuming more juice than an inverter) and size.  I have a small two car garage and it's not too bad, but it would definitely be nicer having something the size of a shoe box instead.In the end, I still saved over $500 off buying something new and I'm really happy so far.  In the future, when I can justify getting a better machine, I may spring for an inverter, but I don't regret buying a used Sync and would definitely get a 200 used for the right price.  They aren't too hard to find around here and there's not much to go wrong with them.  I liked the idea of getting a great machine and still having some extra cash in my pocket, especially since the learning curve is more seat time than anything.  If you hunt for the right machine, you should be able to sell for close to what you pay for it.Edit:  Looking at the HTP, I think that would be my choice if I were to buy new.  I don't think I've ever read a complaint about them and everyone that has them seems to love them....but I've never used one.Last edited by kazlx; 12-06-2011 at 06:49 PM.