Trenching Disc

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Recently picked up a trenching disc. Three point linkage mounted, pto driven and hydraulically raised and lowered.Essentially it was in their "storage" area. Four foot diameter aluminium disc with trencher teeth bolted around the periphery. Sorry no photos of the whole thing yet.It was locked up pretty solid  and I could only turn it ten to fifteen degrees by hand, wrestling with the disc. It's driven by a 4:1 reduction box then to a triplex chain to the disc itself. The chain drive was seiezed with rust, so I started there and eventually managed to drift the conn link out of it and prise the chain off the sprockets. The wheel feels as if it need new bearings but the gearbox was hard to turn and very graunchy. Pulled the end cover and there hadn't been any oil in there for a while but there had been some water. The whole unit had been stored with the disc horizontal. However it's been made with a gearbox designed to have the output shaft going vertically down but in this case used with the shaft horizontal. Hence breather plug is placed badly relative to the oil level plug and as stored, the breather has actually caught water and allowed it into the box as far as I can figure.I need to strip it and have got the slip clutch off the input end but the sprocket is playing hard to get. There's a damaged grub screw (hardened) in one of the holes that I can't find a hex in and I need some ideas to deal with it.It's about 3/4-1" below the surface and I can't see well enough into the hole but it won't drill with a HSS drill and my drill press is too fast for a concrete drill. Any ideas, please?I'd wondered about trying the TIG on it to try to "soften" it after cooling for drilling. I'll post some photos to show where it's at.Notice how the breather plug on the right of the rear cover is below the oil level plug.There are also flats on the top and bottom of the rear cover where drain and breather plug holes could have been drilled if anyone had thought it through when it was built."One of the things we have to be thankful for is that we don't get as much government as we pay for." (Charles Kettering)Mitch 180 (NZ)Lincoln SAM-400-220 + ?-400 Fordson Major + 2 x Tractapac Humber 80 + Procut 40 PlasmaMiller Spectrum 375
Reply:If rooting around with a sharp pic doesn't dislodge the dirt/crud in the hex slot, maybe let it soak for a while in some sort of solvent to break the crud up.  Maybe you can find the slot thenWe've both probably thought of the last ditch drastic put all your eggs in one basket solution, but I'd wait until all the ideas are inCursing sometimes gets a good response  And it's easier on your big toe!!"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:pick, not pic. LOL"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Have you tried a metric hex yet ? Of course if it's damaged and rusted real bad finding the right hex probably won't matter.
Reply:Sandy - In poking around with a fine pointed pick, I can't even feel anything that resembles a hex or even a hole. It feels for all the world as if it's just a drilled end i.e. I can feel the sides angling down to the centre. But of course it's not drillable - yet!I've managed to get a makers drawing of it this morning and usually that shaft would have a flange mounted on it and show two holes through it at 90 degrees to one another. But of course the drawing doesn't show where the two holes are dimension wise. There was something 180 degrees opposite to where the problem is and I managed to drill that down to about shaft level. I'll have to have a close look at it but maybe I'll end up drilling right through to see if I can find the hard thing at the end of the tunnel.If they have used a hole that's all the way through, I'd have thought any one sensible would then have put a bolt or roll pin all the way through, so you could see what was what. But maybe like a lot of manufacturers, that was going to be his secret and a future source of incomeI wonder what Alfred would do....?Last edited by Tractapac; 06-21-2009 at 08:05 PM."One of the things we have to be thankful for is that we don't get as much government as we pay for." (Charles Kettering)Mitch 180 (NZ)Lincoln SAM-400-220 + ?-400 Fordson Major + 2 x Tractapac Humber 80 + Procut 40 PlasmaMiller Spectrum 375
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammIf rooting around with a sharp pic doesn't dislodge the dirt/crud in the hex slot, maybe let it soak for a while in some sort of solvent to break the crud up.  Maybe you can find the slot thenWe've both probably thought of the last ditch drastic put all your eggs in one basket solution, but I'd wait until all the ideas are inCursing sometimes gets a good response  And it's easier on your big toe!!
Reply:Originally Posted by TractapacSandy - In poking around with a fine pointed pick, I can't even feel anything that resembles a hex or even a hole. It feels for all the world as if it's just a drilled end i.e. I can feel the sides angling down to the centre. But of course it's not drillable - yet!
Reply:Not sure exactly what you are talking about.  Can you circle it in one of your pics?
Reply:Ask around anywhere for a fiber optics inspection kit.  There are some dandys out there for contractors and builders who need to inspect inside walls.  As a last resort talk with a couple of local physicians (medical doctor) and ask if perhaps they might have one of those gizmos they use for inspecting the insides of ears.  This will shine a light down the hole while providing magnified viewing.-MondoMember, AWSLincoln ProMIG 140Lincoln AC TombstoneCraftsman Lathe 12 x 24 c1935Atlas MFC Horizontal MillCraftsman Commercial Lathe 12 x 36 c1970- - - I'll just keep on keepin' on.
Reply:Mondo - that's a good idea I know that plumbers have something like that too. Probably cheaper to go to the doctor. I can see it now, in the waiting room with a gearbox on a trolley. Then in the Doctor's Room, "Now, what seems to be the problem?" "I'm fine, but could you please shine your earscope in the hole there, please!" I'd probably end up with a referral or a strait jacket.Sandy, It's ok, we get all sorts down here and need to have both imperial and metric allen keys and metric and AF and sometimes still the old Whitworth spanners too.Made a bit of progress today. Managed to drill down as far as the shaft in two spots and then drift the pin (or what seems to be a pin into the centre of the shaft. The shaft is hardened and won't drill either. So, I think I've removed all that's holding it in the hole closest to the gearbox case.Boostinjdm here's your request:As I said earlier I got a diagram of it today, which was great and also showed another hole in the output shaft at right angles to the other. After a bit of a scratch around, I found a half milled away tooth on the sprocket and the other hole. Good news to know it was there but it's proved harder to do anything with. There is a piece of what I think is stainless steel pressed into a half inch hole with a quarter inch hole bored in it. There was a similar set up in the other hole and it drilled ok and seemed to have been pressed in. It went well unitl I got to the hard spot but with a pin punch, I've managed to drive whatever was in there below the surface of the shaft. So, I feel that that is clear to move and there only remains this last one to deal with. However the first one was drilled right through the shaft and bI've een able to use the punch from both sides but the last one is only drilled from one side, so I don't know whether there is a pin that goes right through the shaft and into a blind hole in the other side of the sprocket. And, getting tired of heaving 80 pounds of gearbox between the bench in the outdoors and the drill press in the indoors, I've dragged the output seal out and removed a spring circlip and driven the shaft out of one bearing and almost out of the main gear and if all else fails, drilling wise, then I can go for broke in the press and try to shear any pin left in the hole.Removal of part number 4, the spring ring allows the shaft to be removed (downwards)"One of the things we have to be thankful for is that we don't get as much government as we pay for." (Charles Kettering)Mitch 180 (NZ)Lincoln SAM-400-220 + ?-400 Fordson Major + 2 x Tractapac Humber 80 + Procut 40 PlasmaMiller Spectrum 375
Reply:That's what I thought you were talking about.   Get yourself a big drillbit and drill the hole out down to the hard spot.  Then you should be able to see what you are dealing with a little better.
Reply:It might be worth attempting to remove all of the rust on the thing with Electrolysis...maybe that would free it up a bit better than just soaking in penetrating oil.  Someone else on this board used that method to clean up a piece of equipment...but I can't remember the thread.Here's some links...http://www.instructables.com/id/Elec...val-aka-Magic/http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andyspatch/rust.htmhttp://www.rickswoodshopcreations.co...st_Removal.htmHope that helps a bit.--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:It's been a while between drinks and posts for that matter. Rather than start another thread, I thought I'd keep this project under the one heading.I drilled and tried to punch and press the pins I'd been drilling into but only got limited movement, so resorted to  visit to a local engineering shop.Their bandsaw soon got it off. The pins were bent as it's obviously had a jam up at some stage.So, they cut a keyway in the shaft and next time anyone will know what they're dealing with. Hardened shaft and had to use a carbide cutter.Needed to use my hydraulic puller to try and remove the bearings from the shaft.Couldn't get the puller on the bearings, so had to make an adaptor, 1/2" BSF nut meets M16 nut and the mig welder. The remains of the first bearing are behind it.Nuts welded together were strong enough to enable the puller to break the housing.This gave a bit of room to work in and the cut off wheel in the grinder dispensed with both the outer race, the cage and then the inner race.Just one more inner race and then I can start on the other end. An awkward thing that we've been unable to remove from the frame."One of the things we have to be thankful for is that we don't get as much government as we pay for." (Charles Kettering)Mitch 180 (NZ)Lincoln SAM-400-220 + ?-400 Fordson Major + 2 x Tractapac Humber 80 + Procut 40 PlasmaMiller Spectrum 375
Reply:This is the business end of things. 52" diameter wheel with trencher teeth on it. Should leave a 20" approximate depth of trench.It's started going back together now. There used to be a lever valve here for adjusting the depth of cut but the actuator was broken off and the end of the valve casing was buggered. So I delved into a $1 bucket of hydraulic bits I picked up a while ago and lucked out and found a manifold bank that coupled both lines successfully. I'll be bale to adjust the depth of cut form the seat of the tractor. I welded this on in place of the valve. Weldwell 3.2mm rods at 110amps.Haven't managed to do anything on it for three days now as it's raining. When it fines up, I want to see about moving it so it cuts the trench closer to the outside of the tractor, as currently it would cut just inside the line of the rear tyre."One of the things we have to be thankful for is that we don't get as much government as we pay for." (Charles Kettering)Mitch 180 (NZ)Lincoln SAM-400-220 + ?-400 Fordson Major + 2 x Tractapac Humber 80 + Procut 40 PlasmaMiller Spectrum 375
Reply:Haven't managed to do anything on it for three days now as it's raining. When it fines up, I want to see about moving it so it cuts the trench closer to the outside of the tractor, as currently it would cut just inside the line of the rear tyre.
Reply:Thanks Sandy. The physics of it was one of the things on my mind. Whilst I would like to cut a trench with it, that is not the sole intention of using it. We have rows of plants that we need to transplant and I'm hoping to use the thing to cut along a side of the row of plants, as you would "wrench" with a spade, prior to transplanting. i.e you might wrench a plant on two sides opposite and a month later wrench to other two sides and then transplant a period after, instead of cutting all the roots at one time and plonking it in a new piece of dirt.The plants we're dealing with are about a foot apart and 4-5 years old so have developed a reasonable root structure.My hope is to run the trench down both sides and then give a break for the plants to start to generate new root growth there and then we have another "Wrencher", in the form of a horseshoe or u-shaped blade than can then be winched underneath the row, then divide between the plants with spades to allow each plant to be lifted for transplant.If the physics don't work out, I could position the tractor, spin the disc and then just cut a groove and then move along to cut the next part. But I need to get as close to the rows as I can as cutting a tyre width out is a bit too far.If I get too far out, I could use the wider blade, but this is what happened last time. Ground was too hard and even after watering it didn't soften enough to yield to the blade, so the blade yielded! About 3/8" tick and 8" wide bolted to two bits of truck chassis.SO I cut two trenches with a small backhoe. With the two trenches, and watering them overnight, all the water went into the root block and made it easier to cut.Lined up the winch ropes. Pulled the tractor 5 feet sideways when I found a buried concrete strainer post! Interesting ride!Welded some pulling lugs on a piece of old grader blade.Pulled the blade through and this is what it looked like where the blade had been through under the trees and sheared the roots. Maybe had a 5% loss in moving them, mainly attributable to the time of year and the crowded way they'd been planted. i.e. up to ten or so plants in a 18" diameter hole, when they were seedlings. Then too long before transplanting. It was summer before we'd finished moving them.Hopefully the disc will be quicker."One of the things we have to be thankful for is that we don't get as much government as we pay for." (Charles Kettering)Mitch 180 (NZ)Lincoln SAM-400-220 + ?-400 Fordson Major + 2 x Tractapac Humber 80 + Procut 40 PlasmaMiller Spectrum 375
Reply:Sorry for bringing an older thread back to life but I try to keep a project in one thread.Progressed to a stage where i thought I'd use two driveshafts and also made some lugs for plough arm mounts. Got 1" holes punched in the lugs at a friend's workshop they didn't have the right size punch and I welded all the lugs together an then set them up in the four jaw chuck in the lathe and bored them to the size I wanted. Then separated them and plasma cut a radius on them. Lessons here in plasma cutting and the quality of "sever" cuts. Still quicker and less hassle than an OA cut but the OA would have been better.Sever cut where I suspect the plasma isn't powerful enough to allow the air to cut through cleanlyNew mounts on and primed to give offset to position the  wheel outside the tractor rear wheel.Intermediate pate for bearing and a dummy PTO shaft. (Plan A)Viewed from gearbox end towards tractor.Stress pattern from punching. Attached Images"One of the things we have to be thankful for is that we don't get as much government as we pay for." (Charles Kettering)Mitch 180 (NZ)Lincoln SAM-400-220 + ?-400 Fordson Major + 2 x Tractapac Humber 80 + Procut 40 PlasmaMiller Spectrum 375
Reply:Couple of pictures showing where it will mount relative to the tractor."One of the things we have to be thankful for is that we don't get as much government as we pay for." (Charles Kettering)Mitch 180 (NZ)Lincoln SAM-400-220 + ?-400 Fordson Major + 2 x Tractapac Humber 80 + Procut 40 PlasmaMiller Spectrum 375
Reply:The trencher looks like it ought to work.I liked the old way better  Interesting fact......plows used to be pulled by a stationary engine parked at the edge of the field.  Very long cables.If you can cut the side trenches, then build or find something like a sod cutter you'd be home free.  A reciprocating blade beneath the plants would be very fast.  Be like slicing breadI could spend a week, and a few packs of beer, wandering around your yard area  So many toys to play with"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:farmersamm said: I liked the old way better Interesting fact......plows used to be pulled by a stationary engine parked at the edge of the field. Very long cables.Interesting fact 2: Some gliders are launched by a powered winch in a similar fashion."One of the things we have to be thankful for is that we don't get as much government as we pay for." (Charles Kettering)Mitch 180 (NZ)Lincoln SAM-400-220 + ?-400 Fordson Major + 2 x Tractapac Humber 80 + Procut 40 PlasmaMiller Spectrum 375
Reply:Strange things happening when trying to post tonight, so I don't know how this will go. But, here goes anyway.I forgot to take progress shots as it went and it's working now, not quite finished but working.  I'll take some shots to show what happened with the driveshaft, as Plan A had some  concerns and i ended up "unwelding" my intermediate plate and using a single longer driveshaft.First trial away from the plants went well and tracked pretty straight.So, let's see what it can do to plants. Had to cut the guard back considerably.This let me get to about 10 inches from the plants.So, it cuts a 3 inch trench and moves all the dirt to the other side.Then we dig a slot across to get the wrenching sled in, A smaller version of the bent one in Post #16.You can see the next row in the picture has lifted slightly as the blade went underneath.Found that going gently didn't work, note the semi buried and pulled over plants. Using the proper PTO speed and the wrenching sled winched through a lot quicker and cut the roots better.A reciprocating blade. No doubt that would be great but it would take a while to nut it out."One of the things we have to be thankful for is that we don't get as much government as we pay for." (Charles Kettering)Mitch 180 (NZ)Lincoln SAM-400-220 + ?-400 Fordson Major + 2 x Tractapac Humber 80 + Procut 40 PlasmaMiller Spectrum 375
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI could spend a week, and a few packs of beer, wandering around your yard area  So many toys to play with