NHRA Chassis Failures

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So, Anybody here have an educated guess as to what that root cause failure was on Force's Chassis failures??
Reply:Nope..Could be countless things from poor welds (That I highly doubt) down to heavy vibration in unheard of numbers..Latest issue of National Dragster has a extensive article about Ford's "Blue Boxes" Crash sensors that will be in every fuel car this year..This will hopfully answer some questions..Force Racing has new chassis designs that may need a while to dial in..Read all about it in N.D....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterNope..Could be countless things from poor welds (That I highly doubt) down to heavy vibration in unheard of numbers..Latest issue of National Dragster has a extensive article about Ford's "Blue Boxes" Crash sensors that will be in every fuel car this year..This will hopfully answer some questions..Force Racing has new chassis designs that may need a while to dial in..Read all about it in N.D....zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860So, Anybody here have an educated guess as to what that root cause failure was on Force's Chassis failures??
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860So, Anybody here have an educated guess as to what that root cause failure was on Force's Chassis failures??
Reply:Very Interesting!
Reply:There's no doubt in my mind that it's the "heat treated" tubing that his builder uses.As for the "national Dragster", it's the house paper, they print whatever they're told to print. It ceased to be a legitimate news source when the current bunch in Glendora came into power.Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:i don't know enough about what's been happening to comment accurately but an educated guess...as Olddad said, the use of hardened and tempered 4130 (when the rules mandate 4130N) had a role to playwelding technique could have a role to play with regards to the number of stress cycles before fatigue cracks appeared. i've seen some photos of top fuel chassis welds that look as though they were pulse welded (exaggerated 'role of dimes'). minimizing the heat input input with this technique can result in the formation of more untempered martensite (due to the rapid cooling of the weld- effectively quenched by the surrounding material). stress induced fatigue cracking will always be an issue when structures are built 'on the limit'. harder materials (the use of 'heat treated' 4130 / the formation of martensite from welding) will accelerate the process.
Reply:The bigger question is, where was the initial failure? Did the weld itself break, or the tubing? Top level drag racing is where they get to the limits of what metals can handle as far as stress. At some point during the run, they hit that magic peak of around 7000 hp. When there's traction, the tires absorb some of the stress by flexing, but the majority of it is trying to twist the chassis into a corkscrew.At least we know the failures are being investigated, and you can bet JFR and Eric Medlen's father are taking it very seriously.
Reply:Originally Posted by hotrodderi don't know enough about what's been happening to comment accurately but an educated guess...as Olddad said, the use of hardened and tempered 4130 (when the rules mandate 4130N) had a role to playwelding technique could have a role to play with regards to the number of stress cycles before fatigue cracks appeared. i've seen some photos of top fuel chassis welds that look as though they were pulse welded (exaggerated 'role of dimes'). minimizing the heat input input with this technique can result in the formation of more untempered martensite (due to the rapid cooling of the weld- effectively quenched by the surrounding material). stress induced fatigue cracking will always be an issue when structures are built 'on the limit'. harder materials (the use of 'heat treated' 4130 / the formation of martensite from welding) will accelerate the process.
Reply:Originally Posted by JeffBThe bigger question is, where was the initial failure? Did the weld itself break, or the tubing? Top level drag racing is where they get to the limits of what metals can handle as far as stress. At some point during the run, they hit that magic peak of around 7000 hp. When there's traction, the tires absorb some of the stress by flexing, but the majority of it is trying to twist the chassis into a corkscrew.At least we know the failures are being investigated, and you can bet JFR and Eric Medlen's father are taking it very seriously.
Reply:Off Topic: Originally Posted by hotrodderMakoman, would you be in the 'oxy-fuel' camp with regards to welding 4130 structures that will be used 'as welded'?
Reply:The actual results from testing the remains of those two cars in question will probably never be divulged, same as the Darrell Russell crash. All we will get are opinions and/or tests of new materials.Another consideration is that of who it is happening too, the Force camp. What are they doing differently than everyone else ?? That could be the point of initial failure.All the reports and/or interviews I've seen on/about both JFR cars have stated that the tires were punctured. At what point they were punctured I've never read and we'll probably never be told. It's only been one builders product and one race teams problem up to now. Is it something one or the other is doing.Another problem is the fact that NHRA/SFI shuffled the chassis advisory board around according to how willing they were to "go along". What does that have to do with "Dedicated to Safety" ?? It's seemingly all politics now so who knows what's going to happen. They have new "band-aide" specs out now for the start of the season. I guess we'll find out mid-spring (when the new spec is supposed to come out) what direction they'll take.As for the O/A question, that's been illegal since the cars had about 2500 HP. There is no reason why tests couldn't prove or disprove it's viability though.Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:I wonder what brought about the banning of the O/A process??Miller Dynasty 700Miller 350P with Aluma-pro push-pullMiller 280 Dynasty with expansion card Dynasty 200 DXMigMax 215 Enuff power and hand tools to create one of anything..... but mass produce nothing!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by olddadThe actual results from testing the remains of those two cars in question will probably never be divulged, same as the Darrell Russell crash. All we will get are opinions and/or tests of new materials.Another consideration is that of who it is happening too, the Force camp. What are they doing differently than everyone else ?? That could be the point of initial failure.All the reports and/or interviews I've seen on/about both JFR cars have stated that the tires were punctured. At what point they were punctured I've never read and we'll probably never be told. It's only been one builders product and one race teams problem up to now. Is it something one or the other is doing.Another problem is the fact that NHRA/SFI shuffled the chassis advisory board around according to how willing they were to "go along". What does that have to do with "Dedicated to Safety" ?? It's seemingly all politics now so who knows what's going to happen. They have new "band-aide" specs out now for the start of the season. I guess we'll find out mid-spring (when the new spec is supposed to come out) what direction they'll take.As for the O/A question, that's been illegal since the cars had about 2500 HP. There is no reason why tests couldn't prove or disprove it's viability though.
Reply:Just asking a question for general knowledge....How would you go about investigating this?  Would ou go to the welded points on the chassis closest to the area of failure and work away using x-rays, or what?   And, as makoman1860 states about no data supporting on process over another being best, or better,  does the NHRA mandate TIG?   If so, do they have to refer to some kind of empircal data to support their policy?
Reply:Originally Posted by TxDocJust asking a question for general knowledge....How would you go about investigating this?  Would ou go to the welded points on the chassis closest to the area of failure and work away using x-rays, or what?   And, as makoman1860 states about no data supporting on process over another being best, or better,  does the NHRA mandate TIG?   If so, do they have to refer to some kind of empircal data to support their policy?
Reply:I've been intrigued by this thread doing arm chair analysis of chassis "failure"?I've done some research on NHRA frame design and this particular "failure". Apparently the frame performed (not "failed") as designed. Some debris from Bernstein crossing the center and destroying the timing system got into the wheel tub and catastrophically ruptured the tire, at 300+ MPH the forces of that large flapping piece of rubber began tearing the car apart. During this mayhem the frame "disassembled" itself at the designed weak points, sending the power unit careening down the track and far away from Mr. Force! leaving him with only a broken ankle, bruised Knee and badly dislocated wrist.The energy generated by this near disaster was absorbed by the power unit, leaving John sitting just feet from where the crash began. This also saved the chassis of Bernstein's car letting him roll to a stop and walk away.I am quite sure that if the car had remained intact we would not be discussing his "injuries" it would have been much worse. I applaud the work of the chassis designers/engineers that have saved many race drivers through their energy absorbing frame designs. As fabricators we think everything needs to stay in one piece, we should take a lesson from electricians, there needs to be a fuse installed somewhere!
Reply:Originally Posted by packeteerI applaud the work of the chassis designers/engineers that have saved many race drivers through their energy absorbing frame designs. As fabricators we think everything needs to stay in one piece, we should take a lesson from electricians, there needs to be a fuse installed somewhere!
Reply:Some cyclically loaded structures are designed with weak points that bend rather than break. Whether it was road hazard or frame failure, I don't have a clue.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Danny,Where did you find that picture of finite element analysis??? (What we call it in trailer manufacturing anyway)  Good stuff.Later,Jason
Reply:The information I was passing on came directly from the racing forums, there were no surprises to the folks that race. The NHRA is NOT an investigative board, the rules, standards and investigations are set by the membership (Racers). Through Video review they verified track debris caused tire failure. Nobody has disputed that finding.These cars are NOT buildings!!! They DO break by design! just watch any documentary about race car designs on discovery channel..  Even production automobiles have failure points designed into them. I know, I have been repairing cars and all types of mobile equipment large and small for 37 years and have seen HUGE changes in safety designs. Remember the deadly 5 MPH bumpers mandated by Freqin' politicians in the seventies, GONE for good reasons, They killed people. That design transfered ALL the energy directly to the frame of the vehicle, it actually stored energy! Automobiles today have breakaway bumpers and "crumple" zones to truly absorb and dissipate that energy.The John Force car bent where it was supposed to and broke beyond that point "BY DESIGN" according to the review committee. I did make a phone call to a SCTA (Southern California Timing Association, birthplace of the NHRA) vehicle inspector I used to work with, He backed up the story I read in the racing forum.I'm not sure why the people in this thread think that John Force should have taken the same deadly ride that the front of that chassis did. From the downtrack view video I saw, if that chassis stayed together John would have wrapped around the engine and taken the entire force of that crash.I'm providing solid information here because this thread has turned to purely speculation and guessing. I try not to do things without at least some basic information, I've gone and gotten the information and supplied it here to end some of this "conspiracy theory".I've done some track work at Pomona with the NHRA and these guys don't deserve what's been posted about them here. It is not your typical "corporation" these people have all been involved in actual racing , Drivers, team owners etc..  Even the safety safari crew is staffed with drivers that don't have rides for the season.The NHRA have kept no secrets about what happened to Force, they have done a pretty good job of letting the teams and builders know what happened. Everything that goes on behind the scenes doesn't always make the pages of National Dragster... Now my arms are really tired from beating this dead horse.....
Reply:Originally Posted by packeteerI've been intrigued by this thread doing arm chair analysis of chassis "failure"?I've done some research on NHRA frame design and this particular "failure". Apparently the frame performed (not "failed") as designed. Some debris from Bernstein crossing the center and destroying the timing system got into the wheel tub and catastrophically ruptured the tire, at 300+ MPH the forces of that large flapping piece of rubber began tearing the car apart. During this mayhem the frame "disassembled" itself at the designed weak points, sending the power unit careening down the track and far away from Mr. Force! leaving him with only a broken ankle, bruised Knee and badly dislocated wrist.The energy generated by this near disaster was absorbed by the power unit, leaving John sitting just feet from where the crash began. This also saved the chassis of Bernstein's car letting him roll to a stop and walk away.I am quite sure that if the car had remained intact we would not be discussing his "injuries" it would have been much worse. I applaud the work of the chassis designers/engineers that have saved many race drivers through their energy absorbing frame designs. As fabricators we think everything needs to stay in one piece, we should take a lesson from electricians, there needs to be a fuse installed somewhere!
Reply:Originally Posted by packeteerThe information I was passing on came directly from the racing forums, there were no surprises to the folks that race. The NHRA is NOT an investigative board, the rules, standards and investigations are set by the membership (Racers). Through Video review they verified track debris caused tire failure. Nobody has disputed that finding.These cars are NOT buildings!!! They DO break by design! just watch any documentary about race car designs on discovery channel..  Even production automobiles have failure points designed into them. I know, I have been repairing cars and all types of mobile equipment large and small for 37 years and have seen HUGE changes in safety designs. Remember the deadly 5 MPH bumpers mandated by Freqin' politicians in the seventies, GONE for good reasons, They killed people. That design transfered ALL the energy directly to the frame of the vehicle, it actually stored energy! Automobiles today have breakaway bumpers and "crumple" zones to truly absorb and dissipate that energy.The John Force car bent where it was supposed to and broke beyond that point "BY DESIGN" according to the review committee. I did make a phone call to a SCTA (Southern California Timing Association, birthplace of the NHRA) vehicle inspector I used to work with, He backed up the story I read in the racing forum.I'm not sure why the people in this thread think that John Force should have taken the same deadly ride that the front of that chassis did. From the downtrack view video I saw, if that chassis stayed together John would have wrapped around the engine and taken the entire force of that crash.I'm providing solid information here because this thread has turned to purely speculation and guessing. I try not to do things without at least some basic information, I've gone and gotten the information and supplied it here to end some of this "conspiracy theory".I've done some track work at Pomona with the NHRA and these guys don't deserve what's been posted about them here. It is not your typical "corporation" these people have all been involved in actual racing , Drivers, team owners etc..  Even the safety safari crew is staffed with drivers that don't have rides for the season.The NHRA have kept no secrets about what happened to Force, they have done a pretty good job of letting the teams and builders know what happened. Everything that goes on behind the scenes doesn't always make the pages of National Dragster... Now my arms are really tired from beating this dead horse.....
Reply:Originally Posted by packeteerSome debris from Bernstein crossing the center and destroying the timing system got into the wheel tub and catastrophically ruptured the tire, at 300+ MPH the forces of that large flapping piece of rubber began tearing the car apart. During this mayhem the frame "disassembled" itself at the designed weak points, sending the power unit careening down the track and far away from Mr. Force! leaving him with only a broken ankle, bruised Knee and badly dislocated wrist.The energy generated by this near disaster was absorbed by the power unit, leaving John sitting just feet from where the crash began. This also saved the chassis of Bernstein's car letting him roll to a stop and walk away.I am quite sure that if the car had remained intact we would not be discussing his "injuries" it would have been much worse. As fabricators we think everything needs to stay in one piece, we should take a lesson from electricians, there needs to be a fuse installed somewhere!Good post Rojo !! I'll only point out a couple of things. The titanium plate on the back of the cage was a new requirement after the death of Darrell Russell. And it was brought on by a piece of shredded slick that went thru the then open cage and punctured DR's helmet and skull.And the 5000HP...estmates for the last few years have been 7000 to 8000.The comment about the "NHRA shirts" is also correct. Thet usually have a waiting list of vounteers (paid minimum wage) for a lot of those simple jobs at the track. Most of the "shirts" are not employees but rather "temps".Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:F=ma ...simple.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Originally Posted by Black WolfDanny,Where did you find that picture of finite element analysis??? (What we call it in trailer manufacturing anyway)  Good stuff.
Reply:Originally Posted by hotrodderi still don't know if they've found out (or at least published) what caused the 'final' catastrophic failure. i've not been following this but last i heard there was a question over whether a tyre failure instigated the crash or a chassis failure punctured the tyre firstthe only thing i can be sure of is that the failure was caused by humans. chassis design may need improving to keep pace with increasing speeds but metal structures don't fail because the stresses are too high- they fail because the design/fabrication techniques were lackingMakoman, would you be in the 'oxy-fuel' camp with regards to welding 4130 structures that will be used 'as welded'?
Reply:Where's that "banging my head aginst a wall" smiley again??...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormick JrIf you add to much 70S2 filler wire. The weld can be soft and the metal around it very hard. You are better off cooking the wire in a bit. You should weld it one tack at a time. Fuse it with no wire, add just a touch of wire, cook it in, level it out. And then come off the power totally till you just have enough light to see. This way each time you move, you temper the last tack. One joint takes about ten minutes to do.        Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:How dare you question him. I mean , he knows it all. About anything, and everything. Just ask him. He's the Nostrodamus of welding , He'll tell you . 500 years into the future .[SIZE="5"Yardbird"
Reply:Originally Posted by Roy HodgesHow dare you question him. I mean , he knows it all. About anything, and everything. Just ask him. He's the Nostrodamus of welding , He'll tell you . 500 years into the future .
Reply:Anyways, I think most agree that something besides just a heavy load caused this problem. Now, some VERY outside the box thinking here. Feel free to calll me nuts, just don't call me McKormick... I know we use rubber isolators to mount motors, car bodies, shocks, etc. But, if the problem was some harmonic destruction, could it be possible to fill the tube chassis with heavy oil, or some gelatinous substance to quell the tuning fork effect on the chassis?? Yes, sound waves (all waves tend to travel very well and consistently through water, but could the 'water' be thickened to make the waves dull out?? If there were such a pitch caused by chatter, either from the clutch or tires, or some kind of mixture that rarely shows itself??? could it be lessened or stopped before it ripped the steel apart?? I was thinking a 3 gallon oil spill if a chassis failed would be not so good, but some liquid gel may be able to do the job without internal rusting problems. I also understand that a chassis filled with oil would be hard to clean out to weld on for anything but adding tabs, but it could be done with something similar to water wetter, etc. What do you think?? And no, I am not drinking again.LOL.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Good idea on the drinking!  I'm goin to sip a drink while I mull over the gell-filled chassis idea....MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Here again, I am at a loss. I have never followed NHRA races. I can hear them all the way from Pomona though! BRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWMP!Time for a new tug truck again. City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:There is a new technology that is being used in high rise buildings that use a fiber optic cable hooked to a computer to show the movements of the building in real time.I believe a miniture version could be used to see the movements of the frame and help to see what is going on.Seeing the broken pieces is sure to help.
Reply:Originally Posted by RojodiabloOkay Roy. You win.  He's spun a mental main bearing again. I agree, let him have it!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomThere is a new technology that is being used in high rise buildings that use a fiber optic cable hooked to a computer to show the movements of the building in real time.I believe a miniture version could be used to see the movements of the frame and help to see what is going on.Seeing the broken pieces is sure to help.
Reply:thanks for adding that Supe.as for Billy Mac,
Reply:Interesting.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Great info Supe. I am just thinking of any different reasons outside the box, because the cars don't self destruct like that very often. .083 4130 is nice stuff. .120 is nicer, even if it weighs a few ounds more. Plaster casts on your feet for 6 months add unnecessary weight, too!!!And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Does anyone else see the one car hit the other in the video...or am I just seeing things? A late friend of myself and my brother hit a Ford truck going 130+ on his crotch rocket and split the truck in half. FULLY - BOXED - FRAME ...as the commercial says. Was it weak metal?  F=maJohn -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Originally Posted by SupeTo divulge some facts here, McKinney uses 80d2 filler metal on all their chassis work, no 70s2.>>>John from TX will chime in now that the problem was the filler, shoulda been 80s-b3 or some such nonsense...LOL>>I wonder if there's a little professional difference going on there since Murf dropped Lincoln and picked up Miller before this all happened ?? I don't know when the switch was made, just something that makes you go Hmmmm. As for it not being a weld induced failure, I would agree. My friends tell me the defect was more of a shatter than a break. This would lead one to believe the stories countering the use of heat treated tubing to be correct and the private tests done by others to be true.>>I may be wrong but I tend to agree with the bad harmonics theory if in fact it is a shatter due to being hardened too much by the heat treat they profess to be better. It's only happening to one team, while their tune-ups are different the baseline parts are the same and for the most part built in-house at JFR.<<<
Reply:Originally Posted by MicroZoneDoes anyone else see the one car hit the other in the video...or am I just seeing things? A late friend of myself and my brother hit a Ford truck going 130+ on his crotch rocket and split the truck in half. FULLY - BOXED - FRAME ...as the commercial says. Was it weak metal?  F=ma
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860I hope your kidding. That statement goes against every weld engineering and material design text I have. Do you have some reference for this process?
Reply:GLENDORA, Calif. - Following previously announced rules changes for the 2004 season, the NHRA technical department has released these additional rules amendments:* The minimum weight in Top Fuel and Funny Car will increase by 25 pounds. The change will make the Funny Car minimum weight at the conclusion of a run 2,400 pounds; Top Fuel, 2,200 pounds. F=ma ....right? F= (998kg)(713m/s / 4.6s ) ...all conversions done. F= 998kg * 155.2 m/s2F= 154,889.6 NThat is what - 15 tons of force? Ugh - my math isn't good this late at night...  Look at 8:40 of this video, both cars clearly collide with a tremendous amount of force. The chassis broke where it wanted to break...PERIOD. That amount of force would shear anything! You guys are rambling about weak metal, bad welds and other nonsense.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:How about a link to the video you're pointing out.If it's the Force crash...nevermind...I've already checked it out in ESPN's super-slow-mo. But even at regular speed you can see the back half back up the track and in slow-mo you see what part of the car it is. The separation takes place way before the front half hits Bernstein's car.Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:Originally Posted by SupeFunny you mention that, I actually did a writeup about the use of wheatstone bridge strain gauges for implementation in racecars a few years ago.Anywho...To divulge some facts here, McKinney uses 80d2 filler metal on all their chassis work, no 70s2.  The technique they use is a manual pulse.  Moderate temperature, add the filler, stab it with a fair amount of heat (130 amps or so I believe for .083), then back off half way, and continue.  They don't do this because its pretty, they do it because it consistently created the best characteristics for their in house tensile testing.As for a little insider dirt, the post-destruction chassis was examined in house by the folks at Lincoln Electric.  From what I've been told by Lincoln employees, they do not believe it was a weld-induced failure, and that these chassis had some inherent design flaws when looked at from a metallurgical standpoint.  He would not divulge any further information.  My $.02, this is a combination of inadequate structural bracing by design, combined with what I believe is a ridiculous use of heat treat.  As for resonance and harmonics tearing the chassis apart, I don't believe that to be the case.  That magical resonant frequency is constantly changing as that 4130 bends, twists, elongates, compresses, etc.  I don't buy any merit that striking that magical level of resonance for a split second could cause the material to fail as it did.
Reply:Here we go again !! Attached ImagesAnything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT