Fillet weld to edge = Undercut?

admin

Ok... I have attached a crudely drawn depictions (more like cave paintings) of my issue and wanted to  get your guys opinion.Lets say for the sake of argument that we are working with 3/8 material that is fit up edge to edge, with a thickness (3/8") fillet weld that needs to be made on the inside edge. We are using Fluxcore 71T wire .045 if that is going to make a differenceWe attempt to make the weld cap in 2 passes (picture on the left) which burnt the top edge back on the material, somewhat close to what the picture shows. we are only allowed 1/64" undercut. The inspector brings his gauge up, lays it on the top edge of the material and says its more than a 1/64th and wants us to put a 3rd pass on it along the top edge where this "undercut" is at (cave picture on the right)I can't make heads or tales on any code that specifies this situation in particular so it seems like it is purely up to how the inspector reads it. If anybody can please shed some light on this as to what you think, and if this is actually undercut, could you clarify why because this in house inspector just says... "Its wrong, fix it" and I can't seem to find out how he comes to this conclusion. Attached ImagesLast edited by rab986; 03-03-2012 at 09:48 PM.
Reply:It's not undercut it's underfilled.
Reply:So this wouldn't be sufficient weld? (marked with red line) Attached Images
Reply:Do the prints call for a particular contour?  What stresses will the joint be subjected to?  Static or cyclic loads?  transverse or longitudinal?Can we see an actual picture and not your drawing? I'm out and about with family right now, and with no code in hand to reference I will wait until more information is provided, before giving my opinion.Sent from my DROID3 using TapatalkJay DavisAWS-CWIC-60 Specialty Welding ContractorLoving husband, and father of two boys (
Reply:Can ask him to clarify for 'educational' purposes? Sent from my DROID3 using TapatalkJay DavisAWS-CWIC-60 Specialty Welding ContractorLoving husband, and father of two boys (
Reply:I don't have a picture to post but can tell you what it is, its a 36" diameter sump, 18" deep with a53 pipe or rolled A36 material that sits on the roof of a storage tank. If pictures are a must then it will have to wait until next week. The weld in question is where the sump flange meets up with the cylinder of the sump.Again, I have posted another crude picture using the free paint tool that you get with windows. I hope that helps. Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by rab986So this wouldn't be sufficient weld? (marked with red line)
Reply:To measure a fillet weld in every application i have come across you would measure the legs and not the throat. I don't see anything wrong with that weldMiller Dynasty 700Miller Dynasty 200Miller 350pMiller 252Hobart Handler 187Lincoln Weld pack 180Victor O/AHypertherm 1250Hobart Airforce 500IPractical cnc
Reply:to start off, im an amateur inspector in school at the moment.and i think your inspector needs to stop being a dick and atleast explain what exactly is wrong with it, he should explain to you exactly what the codes require, including their tolerances. go to your boss if you have to, seems there is a communication breakdown here.take a picture of the weld with your camera phone or something, that drawing really doesn't say much.Last edited by snappy101; 03-04-2012 at 01:30 AM.
Reply:I am not an inspector at all.  I do see what your inspector is complaining about..  Its the "thinning" of the base metal on the edge.  You do have a 3/8" fillet.'Maybe your inspector is being a dick, maybe he had a bad day,  If he wants another pass, I would make it and move on to the next job.   Prints would be nice, because your welding symbol shows no finish on the weld, just a 3/8 fillet on each side.   Perhaps you could slow down just a little and get more metal to flow up to the edge Undercut which is sort or what you have is from operator.I have been hit for more than 1/32 undercut.   I have not heard of 1/64" especially on a 3/8 fillet.Good LuckDavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:why not run the piece labeled "flange" past the "cylinder or pipe wall" and weld the overhead with no problem? Its not really a fillet weld is it? there is no bearing from the flange piece on to the pipe wall. Call it a V groove?I do agree that this sounds more like under fill rather than under cut.Weldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:Not to pick, but your symbol says to weld a 3/8 fillet on both sides.  DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Sometimes the best solution in these situation is do as requested.  It is important that the inspector communicates with the foreman.  He has no business normally to say anything to the men doing the work.  It gets the egos out of the way using chain of command.   Those outside corners can be difficult.  From my view a little shortcoming on the edge is better than massive amounts of heat and the bead reaching well past the corner into the plate.  It creates what is called a "nothing weld" since the actual throat of the weld is reduced but it is difficult to measure of see unless the inspector has an exposed corner further along the plate.   I have seen owners of shops send an inspector on his merry way and ask the inspection service for a different one.
Reply:That joint is referred to as a a full open corner joint, and while it resembles a groove weld, it is considered a fillet weld.  I checked out a 2004 version of D1.1 and the minimum fillet weld allowed by code for that statically loaded structure (From your description) would 3/16 of an inch for 3/8 material (Section 5.14, Table 5.8, D1.1:2004, may be different on 2010 version, but its at work).  However the drawing calls for 3/8 Fillets, which trumps code, because in design, the engineer is god.   So if he calls for 3/8 fillets, thats what he gets.  There is a tolerance allowed for undersized fillets.  For a fillet weld size designated 3/8 an allowable undersizing of up to 1/8 is allowed for less than 10% the length of the weld.  (Table 6.1, D1.1:2004, will check 2010 on Monday) Now a QC program may utilize code as a MINIMUM STANDARD, so they can impose stricter requirements on their weldments as necessary, but generally this would be documented on the shop drawings as to aid in communication, and designated in writing by the Engineer or QC program to the inspector.  As an inspector I do not impose any stricter requirements, tolerances, allowances then is dicated by code, Contractor QC program, or Engineer.  In other words, I don't just get to make it up.If your In-house inspector is in charge of the QC program it gets a little gray.  But if I were in that situation, you as a welder would know in advance the tolerances I was looking for.  See how the code cleared that up?  After all the dust settles:  Put that third pass on their because arguing with an inspector is like wrestling with a pig in mud.  Eventually you realize the pig likes it.  Good luck.The above is my application of the code, if there is anyone else out there with different information I would be very happy to hear it.Jay DavisAWS-CWIC-60 Specialty Welding ContractorLoving husband, and father of two boys (
Reply:[QUOTE=jbyrd;880911]After all the dust settles:  Put that third pass on their because arguing with an inspector is like wrestling with a pig in mud.  Eventually you realize the pig likes it.    I am framing that :'))
Reply:Rule of thumb I was taught was if a file doesn't lightly cut the edge of the fillet it is underfilled.  It is best to slightly over fill and not sag the edge of the corner.  on all the corners we weld we drag a file across to show it has been fully filled.To many guys try to run that joint in one or two passes.  I run it in three.  Root bottom if horizontal and the top. or left then right if it vertical.  A 3/8 fillet is a large enough fillet for 3 passes.  I don't ever have a problem with sufficient fill.