Splicing a I-beam together

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I am not a welder, but I have a basic understanding of it. I took 2 quarters of welding at a comminuty college about 20 years ago. About all I did was run lots of beads on flat stock with a very large stick welder. I am not looking for engineering advice. I want to understand what questions to ask my welder and know what to look for. Here is what I am getting done.I have a 12" tall I beam it has a 1/4" web, 6.5" flange that is 3/8" thick and is 26 lbs per foot. It is 24' long. I have another piece same specs but is 4' long. I need to butt weld the 2 together. It is going to be for a 1 ton trolley hoist set up in my home woodworking shop building. It will be a very lightly used. The beam will only be supported at the ends. Most use will be well under 1000 lbs. The trolley does not need to be able to roll over the weld joint. What do I need to understand about the weld? Will the new length be as strong if it was a single piece? Do both pieces need to be ground to a special angle or depth to build up the weld? will the weld go all the way around the beam? What questions am I not asking that I should know?I did search the forum, but did not find the info I was looking for.Thank you very much for your help with this.Last edited by Toolferone; 03-05-2012 at 08:58 PM.Reason: sp
Reply:Are you a good enough weldor to make that serious of a weld if I told you how? Most use will be under a 1000 pounds but not all use. If it breaks then it might kill or maim you or a friend. This ain't nailing boards together. There is a reason good weldors get paid very good wages. There is more to it than meets the eye. Are you good enough?
Reply:The op said he was going to have it welded by a welder. He just wants to learn what sort of things to ask about and look for.RussRIP Mallory, we miss you.
Reply:Originally Posted by russ69coupeThe op said he was going to have it welded by a welder. He just wants to learn what sort of things to ask about and look for.Russ
Reply:He could just butt it together with a 6" X 3" 1/4" thick plate welded on the middle on both sides and it will be just fine..But you REALLY should have a half way column from the floor up on both sides......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:W-Beam Splicehttp://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...ht=beam+spliceThe above may help your understanding.Suggest you check the deflection of 2000# point load at center of 28' beam--for your knowledge.Checking the above for max. load would be good to do, as well.The beam connections to the vertical columns, the columns themselves, the base platesand the method of securing the base plates deserve the same study and attentionas the beam.....but that's rarely discussed or considered in home brew setups.Last edited by dave powelson; 03-05-2012 at 10:35 PM.Reason: additionBlackbird
Reply:Look to see if your welder will prep the joint with a bevel for better penetration, but the joint and fit up properly without to much gap, ensure the beam is straiht in both directions, helps to have a second straight section of beam to clamp it too while welding to use as a straight edge. A good welder can do it without fish plates on each side of the web, but for what it's worth I would ask for it to be plated 12" each side of the center joint. weld 100% all the way around , 28' span seems like a lot for a center point load that may exceed 1000lbs but I don't have a chart or figures here in front of me, I'm sure someone will chime in. In the event you wanted to hoist something extra heavy at some point you could use a temp support like a screw jack provided you didn't have to trolley in the area of the jack. for 500lbs or less , no problems.  what will your column supports and anchorage be?"Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelsonW-Beam Splicehttp://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...ht=beam+spliceThe above may help your understanding.Suggest you check the deflection of 2000# point load at center of 28' beam--for your knowledge.Checking the above for max. load would be good to do, as well.The beam connections to the vertical columns, the columns themselves, the base platesand the method of securing the base plates deserve the same study and attentionas the beam.....but that's rarely discussed or considered in home brew setups.
Reply:In industry around here you hang a 1-1/2 Ton trolly and you have just rated your lifting equipment @ 1-1/2 Ton.  There is already a generous safety factor built into your trolley so you don't have to overdo things.There is no way that you can guarantee what the next owner of your shop will try to lift.  At home a partially trained person will look at the trolley, see the 1-1/2 Ton trolley, do a mental calculation and VOILA -- I can lift 4-1/2 Tons with this thing and since a properly engineered beam should be rated for 10 times the lifted load (includes weight of rigging) . . .  Do you see where this is going?Gordie -- "I believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Reply:Looks good.Maximum deflection with a 2000 lbf load at midspan, including the weight of the I-beam will about 1/4", and maximum stress should be less than 10,000 psi, a third less than the yeild strenth of A36 structural steel.
Reply:All lifting devices should be built to a 5:1 safety factor. If it needs to hold 1000lbs, build it to lift 5000lbs. That is usually the same factor used in all of the rigging equipment. On a beam splice like that I have always liked to fully weld the flanges and the web. Then I would grind the weld in the web smooth and place a square plate in the diamond position over the joints on each side and weld all around those. Then you know its strong enough.CERTIFICATIONS:7018M- H.V.O10718M- H.V.O11018M- H.V.O9N10- H.V.O71T-1-HYM- H.O.V100S1 PULSE ARC 0,035- H.O.V100S1 PULSE ARC 0.045- H.O.VER70S-3 PULSE ARC 0.035 H.O.VER70S-3 PULSE ARC 0.045 H.O.VER5554- H.O.V
Reply:Originally Posted by NiteskyThere is no way that you can guarantee what the next owner of your shop will try to lift.  At home a partially trained person will look at the trolley, see the 1-1/2 Ton trolley, do a mental calculation and VOILA -- I can lift 4-1/2 Tons with this thing and since a properly engineered beam should be rated for 10 times the lifted load (includes weight of rigging) . . .  Do you see where this is going?
Reply:What are you using for vertical support of the beam?quoting myself from prior ---"The beam connections to the vertical columns, the columns themselves, the base platesand the method of securing the base plates deserve the same study and attention as the beam.....but that's rarely discussed or considered in home brew setups."Blackbird
Reply:Bevel 2 flanges to a 45 rat hole the beam use a 3/8x1  backup bar fullpen the flanges and partial pen the web from both sides use a 3/16 rod hot 6010 or 7018 . John
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelsonWhat are you using for vertical support of the beam?
Reply:Originally Posted by ToolferoneThe specs for them is from a engineer at the manufacturer.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPDid the engineer happen to give you a safety factor he is working with, 5 to 1, 3 to 1?
Reply:No big deal, I was just curious.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by PavinsteelmanBevel 2 flanges to a 45 rat hole the beam use a 3/8x1  backup bar fullpen the flanges and partial pen the web from both sides use a 3/16 rod hot 6010 or 7018 . John
Reply:Originally Posted by BCRD"rat hole the beam" is a new term for me. Would you care to educate me? ThanksJason
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPDid the engineer happen to give you a safety factor he is working with, 5 to 1, 3 to 1?
Reply:I thought all engineers dealt with safety factors when it came to rigging, cranes, and hoist.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI thought all engineers dealt with safety factors when it came to rigging, cranes, and hoist.
Reply:Well live and learn, I guess. Here is the company I worked for most of my life, how many engineers do you think they employ? http://www.kiewit.com/Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Interesting.  I've done some work for them.  Nice people.  I am sure they were in good company, working with you, and vice versa.I would suspect that Kiewit Engineering would be pretty heavy on the number of engineers they employ.  Interestingly enough, they mention Geotechnical as one of their primary functions.  Geotech is its own beast entirely, but the reports I was reviewing today listed a safety factor of 3 for soil bearing capacity.the safety factor for overhead lifting design and engineering is still 5:1.    designing an overhead lifting structure is completely different than designing a building.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:Originally Posted by Dualiethe safety factor for overhead lifting design and engineering is still 5:1.    designing an overhead lifting structure is completely different than designing a building.
Reply:If you type in "Bridge Crane Safety Factor" into Google, you can read for the rest of your life. Here is just one I found. Look at the 4th section "Bridge girders".http://www.uescocranes.com/Crane-Specifications.htmlDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:I am sorry I ever got involved in this discussion...  I really should know better.
Reply:Maybe not for cranes, your citations provide some interesting reading for an ironworker....but for the rigging connecting the load to the hook - the industry standard is 5:1. 10:1 if you are hoisting personnel. browsing your links above, I can speculate that designing a crane to have a 5:1 safety factor my be cost prohibitive; or size prohibitive.  Thanks for poking around like that!Weldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:Good Luck. I just bought a copy of D14. No Rat Holes Permitted.Last edited by lsoult; 03-16-2012 at 03:20 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI thought all engineers dealt with safety factors when it came to rigging, cranes, and hoist.