The Test That Stumped Them All...

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I was asked to do a test next door with Red End Tungeston with Gas mix VS Straight Argon while welding Aluminum..The results were pretty good...So I will share them here.To start lets make this fair..My machine is a TRANSFORMER that will go over 400 amps..I set the machine up to go about 180 amps wide open on AC..The material is 6061T-651 1/4" thick sheet cut in the bandsaw..Cleaned and wire brushed with acetone where it mattered...2 pieces 3/32" RED...SHARP!!!One for Argon One for Mix...The HI freq was set at 8..The start amps was 7..NO preheat..COLD table...Foot pedal...For the sake of argument I used a brand new # 5 cup on a WP-20 watercooled torch..NO tinkering with anything between gas changes...Here we go...First up is the parts all cleaned..Torch set up..Welded..Gas mix weld...Straight Argon weld..Next.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Last set..Notice the end of each piece of tungston..Gas mix..Straight Argon..Notice the leftover filler wire per piece..Here is a cross section of the welded parts..Gas Mix..Straight Argon..So in reality the gas mix is superior when doing Aluminum..If it was a Drag Race..The gas mix side would win by 10 car lengths...Heat is much more concentrated with a mix...I had to stay into the pedal WAY more with the Argon...Backed out of it MUCH sooner on the mix..So if speed is your thing gas mix is the way to go..Have your fun with this..By the way dont pay much mind to the title..It's from a Dream Theater song.....zap!Last edited by zapster; 03-19-2010 at 06:16 PM.I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:It looks as though your attaining alot more cleaning action with the straight argon versus gas mix. I wonder if the gas mix would have any diverse effects on the finished weldment internally? Xrays of both would be interesting. I know our boiler inspector had us test on two different gas's while we were creating a new high pressure procedure for some of our exotic alloys "hastaoly, inconel" And the two gas's had different effects internally, one of which was grain structure alterations, and carbide precipitation. Very interesting.
Reply:Nice welds! So what type of gas mix were you using? I'm used to 75/25% helium/argon. At first I couldn't make out the difference in the cross section pics, but after stairing at it for a while it looks like the mix wetted out more than the straight argon.
Reply:Originally Posted by Pressure_WelderIt looks as though your attaining alot more cleaning action with the straight argon versus gas mix.
Reply:Interesting, the first thing i notice is that both fillets appear to be of equal dimension, equal volume. However, more filler wire is used with the gas mix and less wire used with the straight argon. So, where did the missing wire go being that both fillets are equal in volume? The wire used for the fillets should be the same? I’m thinking that the gas mix is hotter and the missing volume of filler wire just evaporated.
Reply:Argon gives the best cleaning action among gases, and it shows.The gas mix should have gotten more penetration, so that could account for more filler being used.I have used mixes before to aid penetration on head work, and when using medium-high amps, it's a real winner. It has a slightly erratic arc at lower amps, less stability on fire-up etc.Nice job, experimenting is fun.With today's inverter arc-shaping and balance/amplitude adjustments, the gas mix is less of a need. Combine the 2 in the right hands on the right job, and the results are amazing.Welding 4" thick billet with only 300 amps and you can barely add the filler fast enough.Oh, and no preheat. 50/50 Ar/He and 92% balance, with 300 DCEN, and only 150 DCEP.
Reply:I have a couple of questions: what diameter filler wire was used, and why would you not use 1/8" tungsten?Bgbkwndo.
Reply:Originally Posted by transitInteresting, the first thing i notice is that both fillets appear to be of equal dimension, equal volume. However, more filler wire is used with the gas mix and less wire used with the straight argon. So, where did the missing wire go being that both fillets are equal in volume? The wire used for the fillets should be the same? I’m thinking that the gas mix is hotter and the missing volume of filler wire just evaporated.
Reply:Originally Posted by Grimm1If you look really close at the cross sectional views and look at the lenght of the legs on the welds compared to the thickness of the base material you'll see that the mixed gas weld is actually bigger. I do alot of fit up work, it's my job to notice discrepincies in size.
Reply:I didn't see where you stated what gases and the % of each gas in your "mix."  I am assuming that it was some argon/helium mix.  Please pass along the "mix" info.
Reply:Zap;Were those  the remains of a single 36" rod for each test, and about how much difference (in fractions, percentages, or whatever) was there from one test to the other? I like the weighing idea too. Why is the one used tungsten so badly oxidized/colored; due to conditions of the test, or accidentally turned the gas off too soon? It appears that you got some undercut/thinning of the upright on the Argon test, but not on the mix. Is that accurate, or just due to the photography? What do you mean about "Start amps"? My machine doesn't have such a control, but my minimum current is listed as 5 amps, IIRC. Also, since this was a test and you didn't specify, was this DC (--) using just the HF for cleaning, and if not, what about the balance setting?
Reply:Originally Posted by Grimm1Nice welds! So what type of gas mix were you using? I'm used to 75/25% helium/argon. At first I couldn't make out the difference in the cross section pics, but after stairing at it for a while it looks like the mix wetted out more than the straight argon.
Reply:Originally Posted by BgbkwndoI have a couple of questions: what diameter filler wire was used, and why would you not use 1/8" tungsten?Bgbkwndo.
Reply:Originally Posted by transitI see a slight difference in the fillets but not enough to account for the missing wire. The only way to know for sure would be to weigh both coupons and wires before and after welding. The total weigh of one coupon + wire must be the same and if not, some of the wire has gone up in smoke. [conservation of mass]
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2Zap;Were those  the remains of a single 36" rod for each test, and about how much difference (in fractions, percentages, or whatever) was there from one test to the other? I like the weighing idea too. Why is the one used tungsten so badly oxidized/colored; due to conditions of the test, or accidentally turned the gas off too soon? It appears that you got some undercut/thinning of the upright on the Argon test, but not on the mix. Is that accurate, or just due to the photography? What do you mean about "Start amps"? My machine doesn't have such a control, but my minimum current is listed as 5 amps, IIRC. Also, since this was a test and you didn't specify, was this DC (--) using just the HF for cleaning, and if not, what about the balance setting?
Reply:That’s not completely true. You can’t compare sample # 1 to # 2 weights for weight. However, sample # 1 before welding is 1.5 lbs + 36 inches of fillet wire 0.25 lbs = 1.75 lbs total. After welding, sample # 1 is [1.5+0.125 lbs of wire] = 1.625 lbs and 0.125 lbs of the remaining wire = 1.75 lbs. Now if these are the results; The remaining wire is 0.125 lbs and the sample after welding is 1.51 lbs. Where has 0.115 lbs gone to?
Reply:did you know.. when a person dies, he loses 3/4 of a pound at the moment of death.. some say it's the weight of your soul...if you're not livin on the edge, you're takin up too much room..
Reply:Originally Posted by transitThe remaining wire is 0.125 lbs and the sample after welding is 1.51 lbs. Where has 0.115 lbs gone to?
Reply:Great to see.Interesting results.Never seen the two gasses side by side...Thanks for your time Zap..
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterYour guess is as good as mine..FYI..There was 2 pieces used per part but the end results per side was the same....zap!
Reply:Im sorry, maybe I missed something.  Where did the gas mix win by 10 car lengths?  Was it in the slightly shiner bead appearance, smaller cleaning zone or with the smidge more filler used?Dont get me wrong, there is obviously a difference in how they run and surely in some cases one would benefit from running an Ar/He mix but I dont think its fair at all to say its overall superior.  If you like to run it, good for you.  But ill keep my straight argon and make the same quality welds all day long.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:The helium/argon mixed gas transfers the heat better thus allowing you to move faster. The shop I work at has aluminum parts they do regularly. When they used to run straight argon they had to preheat the parts to be able to weld them in a timely manner. Once they discovered mixed gas they didn't have to preheat anymore. I've had to weld aluminum with straight argon befor. I think it sucks. Just my personal opinion. If straight argon works for you, more power to ya.
Reply:I thought the title sounded familiar.. Good ol'  Dream Theater... Portnoy is monster... And so are his drums...
Reply:Ok I see you were mainly talking about the speed, no argument there.Have we all gone mad?Originally Posted by ibanezed4yrsdid you know.. when a person dies, he loses 3/4 of a pound at the moment of death.. some say it's the weight of your soul...
Reply:Originally Posted by Grimm1The helium/argon mixed gas transfers the heat better thus allowing you to move faster. The shop I work at has aluminum parts they do regularly. When they used to run straight argon they had to preheat the parts to be able to weld them in a timely manner. Once they discovered mixed gas they didn't have to preheat anymore. I've had to weld aluminum with straight argon befor. I think it sucks. Just my personal opinion. If straight argon works for you, more power to ya.
Reply:Originally Posted by ibanezed4yrsdid you know.. when a person dies, he loses 3/4 of a pound at the moment of death.. some say it's the weight of your soul...
Reply:William,I'm curious about those Welds....  They look very nice with NO soot or contamination what-so-ever, yet that aluminum looks like it's coated or something.  Also, it doesn't look like you had to 'Break the Oxide' in order to get those GREAT looking welds....  I'm curious as to your process.Cheers,/J....Miller Diversion 165120 amp Buzz BoxVictor Oxy/Ace Oxy/LPGSmith "Little" Oxy/LPGHypertherm Powermax 30Lot's of Misc. tools n' crap....
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormick Jrare t This below is gas mix. You would not believe the speed at which I can weld these.        Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:i know its petty but when you grind your tungsten its better to leave the grind marks parallel with itself not perpendicular like you did. not that big of a deal but it will definatly help with arc-blow. also did you use any type of weave and if so what kind.
Reply:Originally Posted by nicknowsui know its petty but when you grind your tungsten its better to leave the grind marks parallel with itself not perpendicular like you did. not that big of a deal but it will definatly help with arc-blow. also did you use any type of weave and if so what kind.
Reply:I am using a small cup, no gas lens. Argon/Helium mix. 3/32" Tungsten Thoriated. Popping its head out. The tungsten is sticking out just past the cup. The tungsten does melt and flame sprays the weld a little. But you cannot see it. I keep a tight arc. I am very close to the work.        Sincerely,             William McCormick