t joint ms tig questions

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1/8 ms tee joint..ta 185..110 amps w/pedal..1/16th gold,1/16th er70s-2..ground shiny and acetoned...1)it seems when i start .  the puddle does not form in the  corner, but 2 seperate ones , one on the flat piece and one on the vertical..which seem sometimes to be taking forever to join..should you coax it with filler rod?  .. does this mean toolow amps?arc/tungsten issue?once the  puddle does coalesce into one puddle in the corner,( it seems like it is overcoming a surface tension,) i can maintain it and move it  along with the torch, eventually needing to back off with the pedal..2)i get a flaky grey deposit which if wire brushed (see foto of pipe to plate) gets  shiny..is this oxidation  of hot metal after the argon is gone? also seems it forms worse on back side..3)the brown spot just left of center is a start on top of a stop.the stop had some deposit on it which i think turned brown when i started on it..4)im pretty sure it got too hot at the end, wider and wider and burned through.. comments and suggestions welcomed.. Attached Images
Reply:Looks to me anyway that the top piece is not "flat" enough from the start..I can tell where you started and there is a gap on the end...Not flat..Fit-up is key..If both pieces were touching then you could establish a puddle in the middle..As far as heat goes turn it up to 150...Give it some "oomph" at the start then it's all pedal...Sept 27'TH...I'll let you know about the argon situation......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:If both pieces are touching or very close they should run together.  If they dont try more heat and make sure both are clean.  Even if there is a gap you should be able to wet them together with filler and manage the heat to keep it filled.You did get way to hot, remember to manage the foor pedal through the entire weld and keep the filler coming if you see it cut into the plate like that.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:i see two things.  first off, why are you grinding the coating off the filler? that coating is good for the weld. secondly, in the third picture, i see what looks kinda sooty on the bead. did you by chance dip your tungsten or touch it with the filler? the only time i see that is when i dip. ive done the acetone wipe once and i didnt notice much of a difference, but i have it if i need it.Millermatic 211weldpack 3200 squirtgunsquare wave 200victory journeyman kitHypertherm 30xptoo much other crap to listtinkerer extraordinaire
Reply:Bridging/coaxing the two pools with filler will just result in LOF at the root. Your arc length is waaaaay too long from the look of the weld- there's a large void circled in red at the root where you terminated the weld. Attached Images
Reply:kmaaaysob--sorry, when i wrote ground shiny and acetone i was referring to the ms not the  er70.i think the sooty spot is where i started over a stop that had some oxidation.hotrodder-it seems like the 2 pools flow together in a crescent shape which is what is circled..i'm not sure theres any metal at all in that corner the whole length of that bead..
Reply:Yep, the crescent shaped area i circled is what's telling me your arc is too long. As arc length increases focus decreases- you heat a larger area inefficiently resulting in (amongst other things) overheating the piece. Due to the geometry of the parts the diffuse arc produces weld pools away from the rootThe 'flakey grey deposit' is just where the metal is scaling due to the temps it reached outside of the gas shieldIf you cut the coupon in half you'll be able to see the welds cross section. In this case there'll be a noticable void at the root but a 'macro etch' will show up the fusion zone and is easy to do. David R has done a few threads on the subject and google images 'macro etch', 'weld macro' etc will produce a bunch of examples of flaws/what it should look like
Reply:i  wonder if the long arc length which is  no  doubt accompanied by spastic twitchings and general waving around of the torch is  letting the tungsten get air contamination in turn leading to the brown weld discoloration i tend to get?
Reply:Zapster mentioned an "Argon situation."Could somebody explain what the problem is?  I believe I have a similar problem as my welds come out dull gray like that also.Thanks,Mickey
Reply:argon situation means availability of argon tank for my ta185 at zapsters tig clinic 9-27..im told dull gray aint so bad..or at least there are worser things ..do yours shine if wire brushed ?mine do(written with great pride..)
Reply:Did a quick demo to show the difference arc length makes before packing up today. 1/8" thick mild steel, 100A with 1 sec slope down, 5L/min #7 gas lens, 4secs post flow and 1/16 tungsten. Two different arc lengths- around 1/16 and 3/16-1/4"After tacking the pieces together i did 2 autogenous tacks, on the right is the short arc, 3/16" arc length is on the left...Close up- no torch manipulation, i gave the 'long arc' more time but was too far away to get a tackRan a weld with the same arc lengths, 1/16" er70s-2. With excessive arc length the filler was starting to melt before it reached the puddleBack of the pieces (left and right obviously reversed). Note the scaling that occured with the excessive arc lengthBefore anyone comments on leg length etc, the scrap bin doesn't care! Last edited by hotrodder; 09-08-2008 at 03:41 PM.
Reply:Great comparison, hotrodder, thanks!I r 2 a perfessional
Reply:Cheers KB. I did try a more precise way to demonstrate this to a mate once. Folded a piece of metal to 90 degress, the vertical leg was triangular so that arc length could be precisely measured- the idea being that a large cup was rested on the vertical piece during an autogenous pulsed bead. Should have got a series of spot welds of different sizes and penetration as the arc length changed but it didn't work out to well. With your automated kit however...
Reply:Hotrodder:Thank you, those pics turned on another light for me. Showing how the tack would bridge with a short arc was quite enlightening. I think I knew it that way. Now I know I know that I'll remember it. It's learning the short arc plus keeping the tungsten out of the puddle and the filler out of the tungsten. 9-11-2001......We Will Never ForgetRetired desk jockey. Hobby weldor with a little training. Craftsman O/A---Flat, Vert, Ovhd, Horz. Miller Syncrowave 250
Reply:Hotrodder, thats some good stuff!  Thank you    Sometimes I use a bigger tungsten because I can see it better and keep it closer with out dipping it as much. DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:awesome, hotrodder,thanks..your long arc  fotos look  like exactly what im getting-two puddles,overheating,etc. am wondering(ill try it out tomorrow)if maybe the way to go is less stickout not more..if it aint stickin out, i cant weld it to the ms or stab it with the filler..??????
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbeadif maybe the way to go is less stickout not more..if it aint stickin out, i cant weld it to the ms or stab it with the filler..??????
Reply:Hotrodder,Yeah, I do have the advantage of the robot, funny thing is though, someone has to teach the robot what the arc length is during the programming.  That comes down to putting the robot into the position I think would be where I would have the tungsten, and seeing what works.As far as the stickout on a fillet weld, IMHO, fillet welds lend themselves to a longer stickout than a butt weld does, because the horizontal and vertical members tend to keep the gas coverage concentrated in the joint, Using a #8 gas lens on a stainless fillet weld, I find I can have at least 1/2" of stickout with a 1/8" tungsten and have no problems with gas coverage with electrode to work spacing of about .050".Again, Hotrodder, great demonstration.Best regards, KbnitI r 2 a perfessional
Reply:Originally Posted by kbnitHotrodder,Yeah, I do have the advantage of the robot, funny thing is though, someone has to teach the robot what the arc length is during the programming.  That comes down to putting the robot into the position I think would be where I would have the tungsten, and seeing what works.
Reply:Originally Posted by Craig in DenverKevin: Robots embarrass me and that's what I'm trying to copy.  My question is: "How LONG an arc length can they 'get away with'? And, while I'm asking, how short?? Technically, I agree. However, I'm talking about manual welding. There's no way I can hope for a .050" arc. Argon coverage isn't the problem. As I said above, with the tungsten tucked up further in the cup, my fillets were easier while walking the #6 cup (.125 ish arc.).Best regards, Craig
Reply:no apologies, please,kbnit..a thread goes where a thread goes..great insights and help here..
Reply:Originally Posted by kbnitCraig,Don't be embarassed, I've been welding for over 30 years, and that darn robot shows me up every time......
Reply:came home, ground and acetoned a few pieces of   ms ,  set tung  stickout shorter than usual(forgot foto, maybe 3/16 with 7 cup  gas lens and proceeded to blow it out my a** in record time. a few questions which do not bear at all on my lack of torch skills and arc length:is 1/16th tung too low for the 160 amps i get when i start?footpedal seems still not backing off right..i back off, it either seems to stay hot or shut off ...3/32 filler seems noticeably to control(cool) puddle  better than 1/16fotos of some of my best work(only cooked 2 tungs today, rest  were over past several days -time to grind a batch..how far below the blue stuff or lumpy stuff do you break it off?can anyone guess what the lumps on the 3/32s is?i am presently despondent but am self-medicating and will be back at it tomorrow. Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbeadSnip...footpedal seems still not backing off right..i back off, it either seems to stay hot or shut off ...Snip
Reply:hmmmmm.the ta185 has 2 controls idont understand..contactor(on/off) and control(panel/remote)i just turned it on and it seems to default to panel control- which i have not been changing to remote...but if thats so, how come the pedal will start/stop the arc and the gas solenoid?its just the amperage that is affected by the  control ?so if i had the panel set for 160amps and initiated the arc witht eh pedal, i had 160,amps regardless of where the pedal was? hmmmmmm..You got it!I have the same machine. When you put it on stick, it defaults to Local.  When you put it back on Tig, you have to select remote.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:this could be a very positive piece of information..many thanks..
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbead ...is 1/16th tung too low for the 160 amps i get when i start?
Reply:thanks hotrodder..what is LOF? will be working on arc length today..any particular excercises one can do toward that or just a matter of torch time to get control?..
Reply:LOF= lack of fusionYeah, for the most part it's down to time- you need to develop muscle memory etc. I always thought a good exercise was build up work. Take a piece of plate, scribe one line to follow and lay a bead along it (keeping it as consistant as possible) and then using that as a guide fill the entire piece with beads- basically build a pad of weld on the plate.
Reply:i spent some time yesterday using pedal now that i am aware it needs to be turned on..wow.. i had been trying to cope with heat buildup and no pedal..i think i was trying a combination of going faster with disastrous results-no puddle for one-- and as a last resort, move  the torch just like in oa welding. i could acttual;ly see an improvement because with the ability to control heat, i could concentrate on arclength and tryingto dip precisely..hitherto it was just a race to inevitable overheat..
Reply:wanted to post   some fotos, been practicin..short arclength continues to be a challenge...i think there is some mill scale buried in here and it keeps coming up..using stainless toothbrush to get it off and lay in some more wire.. Attached Images
Reply:Yer gettin it!David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:learning how to turn on the foot pedal really did make a difference
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbeadwanted to post   some fotos, been practicin..short arclength continues to be a challenge...i think there is some mill scale buried in here and it keeps coming up..using stainless toothbrush to get it off and lay in some more wire..
Reply:N/M, missed the second page altogether.