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If you don't have a nice level concrete floor to work on. Line sighting is the thing for you I suppose this could be done with a level, but it doesn't take distortion into consideration. Some of the members of your weldment have probably pulled a little bit. You may have to split hairs.For me anyhow, in this situation, it's all eyeball, and using known straight edges, to align the structure.Also, unitize if you can. Build in units that can be joined. Make sure the smaller units are SQUARE!!!! In this kind of deal, you can't rely on levels unless you want to make your life miserable.This time around I leveled the second bay (remember, the first bay was already built square, it's a known factor) of the rack by laying a piece of tubing across all three arms of the shelf, then clamped the tubing to the middle of all uprights(it's a pretty good chance that you'll get an average of all the uprights). Next I sighted the uprights top and bottom, and added shims under the runners as needed.YOU MUST PAY PARTICLAR ATTENTION TO MAKING ALL MEASUREMENTS CORRECTLY, AND BUILDING SQUARE BEFORE JOINING UNITSStand far back, and sight all planes. Horizontal, and vertical. Once you are satisfied, tighten the clamps, and tack it. Again tack on braces to hold it true while finish welding if possibleA little note on tacking. For me anyway, it seems to work best to tack on the inside of the "C" on channel. Tack each flange, squaring in between, the lock it up by tacking on the web. When leveling use shims, and have a helper standing by to assist with lifting the heavy stuff Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Lookin good!! Is the left upright leaned out or is that just the way it looks in the pic?DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:I think it's the distortion of the camera lense.Now I gotta get up first thing in the morning and stress about it, and check it"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:LOL, sorry DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:Choked on my brew. Geez!!!It's square, I checked the diagonals.Dude you're messin' me upI think they use the same angle/distortion thing in porn shots"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Sam I think the far lookout is 1/10th of a pixel off.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammChoked on my brew. Geez!!!It's square, I checked the diagonals.Dude you're messin' me upI think they use the same angle/distortion thing in porn shots
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55Sam I think the far lookout is 1/10th of a pixel off.
Reply:Have you considered backing it up to the 'machine shop' and tacking it to the outer wall?MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Also, channel has a tendancy to roll to one side or the other without lateral bracing. There's gonna be a lot of force on the front end of the runners. It's a whole different thing than having it on a solid concrete floor. There's the possibility that not all runners will equally be supporting the weight depending on how it settles"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I don't know what all you plan on throwing up there but I believe you'll find that channel will hold alot more than you would think.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55Have you considered backing it up to the 'machine shop' and tacking it to the outer wall?
Reply:Assuming that both pieces are cut exactly the same it should be square.DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:Duane, I was looking at the shelves and spacing. It's gonna be real tempting to put a LOT of stuff up there. Ten full sticks of 3" 3/16 square tubing weighs around 1200 lbs. and that's not counting the other stuff that's gonna be on there.Might just see my feet sticking out of the mess when it's all said and done.I think a little prudence is in order"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I may have seriously underbuilt the uprights"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Personally, I would have opted for an A frame design. Since it's going to be outside, space isn't really an issue (I wouldn't think so anyhow).However, given what you've done so far, it looks good to me. A place I worked at a few years ago had a steel rack made completely from 1.5" heavy wall sq. tube. It was bolted to the building posts, the horizontal members that held steel were about 18" long, angled slighty upward, with a short gussett (maybe 5" long) under them. It was loaded with 3" sch. 80 pipe 20' long, lots of 1,2,&4" sq. tube, misc. flat bar of various thicknesses. Suffice it to say it was loaded to the max yet very solid. I think you'll be ok. Your rack is built way more stout than what we had. The only recommendation I would give you is to put a gussett under the horizontals that will be holding your material.
Reply:If your container is off the ground any you can slide the back of it underneath. If it's on the ground then you might still be able to with a little digging. Those containers are amazingly stable, especially once you pack a bunch of stuff in them. I've got a 20' and a 40' side by side that I welded together for extra stability (figured it would be harder for wind to turn them both over than just one) mine are also on concrete blocks so I can re-level as they settle.HH 187Miller Bluestar1EAHP AlphaTig 200X
Reply:Might pay to add a gusset. Recently switched to 7018, and maybe I'm expecting too much from it.The shelves are 26" . It's a pretty far piece considering the weight on it."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I edited your picture, the red lines are the gussets I would add. Looking again, one up the back may be a good insurance policy too. Attached Images
Reply:It would relieve the stress, I'm not sure about the ultimate benifit of the flange reinforcement I have now.We're lookin' at basiclly the same thing as a jib crane considering the cantilevered load out front. Just how much will the upright resist the tendancy to bend"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammWe're lookin' at basiclly the same thing as a jib crane considering the cantilevered load out front. Just how much will the upright resist the tendancy to bend
Reply:Originally Posted by Road WarriorThat depends on several key factors - the numerous placement possibilities of ferrous and non-ferrous metals on the rack, atmospheric density subcutaneously discharging multiple rays of gravity deflecting ions, the spinning motion of the earth in relation to the lunar phases, and well, I don't know!!
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI think it's the distortion of the camera lense.Now I gotta get up first thing in the morning and stress about it, and check it
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI may have seriously underbuilt the uprightsIn your second pic, there's something straight laying on the cord of the grinder, maybe a level. If you made that long enough to straddle all three 'toes' of the rack, NOT welded on, under the toes. Like a piece of channel. Then use something like 'acme' (??) threads (those huge 1" threaded rods), to push the rack rearward as the front sinks. You know, like leveling feet on a workbench. With 3 across the front you could account for the different 'sinkages' of the 3 legs. Last edited by Craig in Denver; 04-22-2009 at 01:46 AM.9-11-2001......We Will Never ForgetRetired desk jockey. Hobby weldor with a little training. Craftsman O/A---Flat, Vert, Ovhd, Horz. Miller Syncrowave 250
Reply:Looks good.Your welding inspector (in this pic) is satisfied Gordie -- "I believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Reply:Originally Posted by SandyIt's called "fish eye" effect. Anything around the perimeter of the lens is especially subject to the effect.
Reply:Sam,26 inch long shelves. Check.But what size is the channel you are using? C3x5 (5 lb/ft, approx dimensions 3 inch x 1.5 inch)?1200 pounds evenly distributed on a 26 inch long cantilever C3x5 channel is most likely OK (from the channel strength standpoint), but doesn't really have enough safety factor (the overbuilt factor) IMHO. And the welds have to be GOOD.And as you mentioned, putting that rack onto the dirt is just going to have it settle or sink in. And that could lead to bad things.You really should put that rack onto some sort of hard stable surface to prevent it from sinking in and tipping. What sort of frost line or footing depth do you have where you are? You could dig post holes to that depth, put 4x4 posts in, and then pads between the ground-level post tops and then the rack resting on top of those.Or just make a concrete slab and put the rack on top of that. Dig down a foot deep, put 6 inches of gravel in, then form out and put 6 inches of concrete in. Level and smooth the concrete, wait for it to cure, and put the rack on top of the concrete pad/slab.But several tons of steel sitting on the rack, which is just sitting on the dirt? Eeeek. The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammIf you don't have a nice level concrete floor to work on. Line sighting is the thing for you I suppose this could be done with a level, but it doesn't take distortion into consideration. Some of the members of your weldment have probably pulled a little bit. You may have to split hairs.For me anyhow, in this situation, it's all eyeball, and using known straight edges, to align the structure.Also, unitize if you can. Build in units that can be joined. Make sure the smaller units are SQUARE!!!! In this kind of deal, you can't rely on levels unless you want to make your life miserable.:
Reply:JTMcCThere are two worlds, the one you live in and the one others live in...Just kidding. But, seriously, you must take into account, that every project has its set tolerances. Some projects can get by by using a "relative" flat point, others can't. There are thousands of shops that use a floor for squaring and layout everyday, and then there are shops that don't. Some of the shops know when which technique is acceptable. There are plenty of ways to make something plumb and square using an uneven surface, if you know a little geometry. But the type of projects that Samm builds are impressive in their simple workability. If you are worried that a object is a few hundredths or thousandths out of square, then you are missing the point. Samm is posting valuable info on how to get it done by thinking outside the box...If farmer's everywhere thought as you do and performed under your by the book specificaitons, then fields wouldn't be plowed until they thorougly dried, crops wouldn't be planted until the soil had enough moisture, hay wouldn't be cut until all threat of rain subsided and we would all be hungry because of it. It boils down to the fact that some people only feel safe operating and living within narrow define boundaries and others feel free to experiment and push the envelopes (some by the thrill of experimentation, others by the overwhelming force of necessity.) Nothing is inherintly wrong with either method of thought, but unfortunately, the ones that want narrow defined and "accepted" boundaries are often guilty of wanting to force the other crowd to conform to their standards of thought and practice.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldJTMcCThere are two worlds, the one you live in and the one others live in...Just kidding. But, seriously, you must take into account, that every project has its set tolerances. Some projects can get by by using a "relative" flat point, others can't. There are thousands of shops that use a floor for squaring and layout everyday, and then there are shops that don't. Some of the shops know when which technique is acceptable. There are plenty of ways to make something plumb and square using an uneven surface, if you know a little geometry. But the type of projects that Samm builds are impressive in their simple workability. If you are worried that a object is a few hundredths or thousandths out of square, then you are missing the point. Samm is posting valuable info on how to get it done by thinking outside the box...If farmer's everywhere thought as you do and performed under your by the book specificaitons, then fields wouldn't be plowed until they thorougly dried, crops wouldn't be planted until the soil had enough moisture, hay wouldn't be cut until all threat of rain subsided and we would all be hungry because of it. It boils down to the fact that some people only feel safe operating and living within narrow define boundaries and others feel free to experiment and push the envelopes (some by the thrill of experimentation, others by the overwhelming force of necessity.) Nothing is inherintly wrong with either method of thought, but unfortunately, the ones that want narrow defined and "accepted" boundaries are often guilty of wanting to force the other crowd to conform to their standards of thought and practice.
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldJTMcC but unfortunately, the ones that want narrow defined and "accepted" boundaries are often guilty of wanting to force the other crowd to conform to their standards of thought and practice.
Reply:Although there is a lot to be said for the old "eye-ball."I think that an experienced eye's alignment down a three-pointed line of sight, from a distance, is probably as accurate as the same eye trying to center a spirit level's bubble when up close.And if working with used steel, or a twisted structure, the overall fit and function can be more important than the plumb and level of some specific area of an individual piece. Only the eye-ball can give you that summary.Ever put in a long row of posts? String and level are nice, but to really make em look nice, it takes a good eyeball and a ground man adjusting each post to the final alignment. The eye-ball beats even a laser on such a job.A couple years ago a surveyor told me that he was verifying 100+ year old monuments in a remote area. The original survey had been "eye-balled." He was verifying with the latest technology, including GPS. He told me that he found the old marks to be absolutely on the money.Good Luck
Reply:Some peoples eye balling is better than others!I imagine that samm is a lot like me, I can walk into a room, and spot not only the pictures that are hanging even a tenth of an inch off, but also every piece of furniture that just isn't square, like that table that isn't centered at the wall and one corner is away from the wall by a fraction!I have gave this a lot of thought, and I think it has to do with most people don't look at the whole, they will see the corner, or maybe the 2 top corners but not the angle of the whole thing, like that picture on the wall for example, they see the one corner but not the corners and straight line between those corners and the line of the floor and ceiling and wall lines all relevant to the corners all at the same time, and for this reason, its hard for some to comprehend how someone can eyeball something and be almost or even exactly on the mark without a square, level and tape measure!The bad thing about being able to see the world around you in angles and lines is, it bugs the holy crap out of me when I can clearly see that something isn't exactly square, especially when someone else is right there using all those tools to try and square something up ! #1. If you don't like what I wrote, or if it offends you, then don't read it!#2. I am living life the way I see fit, if you don't like the way I'M living, tough sh**!
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseSam,26 inch long shelves. Check.But what size is the channel you are using? C3x5 (5 lb/ft, approx dimensions 3 inch x 1.5 inch)?1200 pounds evenly distributed on a 26 inch long cantilever C3x5 channel is most likely OK (from the channel strength standpoint), but doesn't really have enough safety factor (the overbuilt factor) IMHO. And the welds have to be GOOD.And as you mentioned, putting that rack onto the dirt is just going to have it settle or sink in. And that could lead to bad things.You really should put that rack onto some sort of hard stable surface to prevent it from sinking in and tipping. What sort of frost line or footing depth do you have where you are? You could dig post holes to that depth, put 4x4 posts in, and then pads between the ground-level post tops and then the rack resting on top of those.Or just make a concrete slab and put the rack on top of that. Dig down a foot deep, put 6 inches of gravel in, then form out and put 6 inches of concrete in. Level and smooth the concrete, wait for it to cure, and put the rack on top of the concrete pad/slab.But several tons of steel sitting on the rack, which is just sitting on the dirt? Eeeek.
Reply:Sam,The building or structure is important, but it has to have a good foundation to be built upon.Otherwise you end up with the Tower of Pisa, or worse. Make the concrete pad, and if you relocate the rack later on you can just call the pad a patio or use it for a shed/workshop floor or even just a work-area floor or a parking pad for your car/truck/tractor/etc or etc, etc, etc. The 'new' treated wood (ACQ) will rapidly rust plain steel, it is listed as being 5 times more corrosive than CCA treated wood. ACQ is so corrosive that expensive stainless steel or triple-zinc or hot-dipped fasteners (or other 'approved' fasteners) must be used. ACQ also is so corrosive that aluminum (flashing or brackets or whatnot) can't be used with it at all. And the old-style 0.4 pounds/ft3 CCA rated for ground contact used to be common and easy to find, but a lot of the ACQ lumber I've seen is just the 0.25 lb/ft3 stuff which is only rated for use ABOVE ground. ACQ is supposed to be treated to 0.4 lb/ft3 for ground use.Sleepers just resting on the ground surface? Still an eeek. Big-big-big sleepers buried down a bit and stacked up (and pinned/spiked together) to get the top surface of the timbers back up to surface level would be better but still may be iffy depending on local soil conditions. You would basically be building a timber foundation wall and resting the rack on top of it.A couple of tons of steel on the rack really does need some sort of stable base to rest on. Unequal settling could cause the rack to rip itself apart and crash.We don't want a Wizard-of-Oz witch scenario, you know with just the feet sticking out from underneath the structure. The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepAlthough there is a lot to be said for the old "eye-ball."And if working with used steel, or a twisted structure, the overall fit and function can be more important than the plumb and level of some specific area of an individual piece. Only the eye-ball can give you that summary.A couple years ago a surveyor told me that he was verifying 100+ year old monuments in a remote area. The original survey had been "eye-balled." He was verifying with the latest technology, including GPS. He told me that he found the old marks to be absolutely on the money.Good Luck
Reply:Originally Posted by JTMcC ...Quite a bit was read in to my post that wasn't there, that's the nature of communication on the net...
Reply:Denrep:
Reply:I wouldn't touch that one with a four foot level.But, Arizona DOESN'T observe daylight savings time so we are in the Mountain Time Zone but we only coincide with it part of the year, the other part we are the same as the Pacific Time Zone.Having said that, the Navajo rez DOES observe Daylight Savings Time and the munument is on the reservation, so................there ya go.
Reply:Originally Posted by QueenB1982Denrep:
Reply:get ya some screenings or gravel SAM and a couple holes full there ya go... woot woot nice stable surface....But when it's dry season the dirt is like cement down here YANKEES OR I SHOULD SAY NORTHERN people LOL don't know this....... so if it settles good you gotta wait for wet season or water it to get it out LOL GOOD LUCK SAM I NEED THAT RACK MYSELFLincoln 225 Tombstone,Miller Big 20,Hobart 180,150' Argon,A/D hobart hood 22 Ton Log splitter,79 F350 dump eats 4.75 TONS and still turns cutters,grinders,And a Hypertherm POWERMAX 30 |
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发表于 2021-8-31 23:55:15