4043 vs 5356 wire

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I know the differences --as in when to use which, but I was welding along nicely with my Prince spoolgun yesterday when everything came to a stop. I ran out of .035 4043 and had no more. I reluctantly threw in some 5356 and continued. The result looked more like something my dog left than the nice welds I was putting down with the 4043. They looked too hot with spatter and soot. I tried to make some adjustments, but couldn't get things just right. The Al was clean, but old. I'm not absolutely sure of the alloy. All else the same, what adjustments would you make when switching wire? Thanks again for the input.Rojo, I'll post some pics asap. Your tips made things go a lot smoother.
Reply:For the same amperage in/at the arc, the WFS difference between 5356 and 4043 is listed as about 17% (lower WFS for 4043 for the same amps, higher WFS for 5356 for the same amps).Example, 150 amps and 3/64-1.2mm wire is a WFS of 325 ipm for 5356 and only 270 ipm for 4043.  For 200 amps, it's 360 ipm with 4043 and 440 ipm for 5356. Etc, etc, etc.If you started with the same parameters as what was working nicely for the 4043 wire, you would have to crank up the WFS when switching to 5356.In general, 5356 uses a current on the higher side of the listed range and an arc voltage on the lower side of the listed range and 4043 uses a current on the lower side of the listed range and an arc voltage on the higher side of the listed range.Last edited by MoonRise; 01-05-2009 at 01:00 PM.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:WFS= Wire feed speed. I think moonrise has a pretty good handle on this, and what I have as input will be secondary. I think Moonrise's machine is a bigger animal, with adjustable amps, volts and wire speed. For a smaller machine like my Miller 175, the voltage goes up with the wire speed.( I believe it is the speed / volts.) But the voltage changes are limited by the machines' preset condition. The one possibility is the wire is old, and so it may have a lot more oxidation on it. This could make it very problematic for you. You can check it; take a paper towel and rub down a foot or 2 of wire, and see what you have. If you have some chalk on there, it may be time to clear off a few wraps of wire to get down to clean wire. I always ran 5356 wire because I had big issues with 4043 birdsnesting on me. If nothing else changed but the wire, you should not see that much problems. I am leaning toward the top 4 feet of wire being too oxidized.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Rojo,The numbers I posted were just example numbers.  Real numbers from real listed wire parameters from Lincoln, but just example numbers.Pretty much every MIG machine will show dropping arc voltage as the WFS (the amperage) increases.  Unless you increase the voltage setting to a higher voltage setting, but even then for the selected voltage setting the arc voltage droops as the current (WFS) increases.  See the Miller manuals for the volt-amperage curves (MM135-MM175 document o1324k_mil.pdf from the Miller website, page 11 Section 3-3).  For a MM175 on voltage setting #10, the actual voltage droops from a listed 29V at 0 amps (open-circuit voltage) to a listed 27V at 20 amps to a listed 19.5V at 180 amps.The MM175 shows a voltage droop on voltage control #0 from 16.5V at 10 amps to14.5V at 130 amps.  Etc, etc, etc.  Other machines are similar, the Miller manuals show those nice voltage-amperage curves.WFS = amps  The faster the wire is coming out, the more amps.The voltage knob/dial controls the voltage setting.For solid steel wire, 0.023/0.025 wire is about 3.5 ipm/amp and 0.030 wire is about 2 ipm/amp and 0.035 wire is about 1.6 ipm/amp when running the wires in their linear WFS-amperage range.  For 0.030 steel wire, that linear current-speed range is up to about 120 amps (240 ipm).  Above that 120 amp/240 ipm mark for 0.030 wire, the current-WFS relationship is no longer a linear one but is exponential and tops out at about 200-210 amps at 700 ipm.  That maximum current that the wire can carry is called current saturation.  For 0.035 solid steel wire, the linear WFS-amperage range is up to about 200 amps (about 320 ipm WFS), and then rises exponentionally from 210 amps up to a max of 280 amps at 720 ipm.  I don't have the WFS-amperage curves handy for aluminum wire.Ahh, you made me look it up.  Lincoln C4200 GMAW Guide.4043 wire :0.030 : 350 ipm to 750 ipm from ~60 to ~170 amps0.035 : 330 ipm to 600 ipm from ~100 to ~200 amps  5356 wire:0.030 :  350 ipm to 750 ipm from ~60 to ~150 amps0.035 : 350 ipm to 730 ipm from ~90 to ~200 ampsThe WFS-amperage curves for 4043 and 5356 are very close in the (rough, not detailed) curves I found, but at a closer look do seem to relate that ~17% difference from 4043 to 5356 I mentioned earlier.And the aluminum WFS-amperage curves are much 'flatter' than equivalent diameter solid steel wires and don't show as pronouned a change from linear to exponential WFS-amperage relationships.  Although they do still show a transition from linear to exponential WFS-amperage relationship.But 0.035 aluminum wire and argon shielding gas shows a transition to spray transfer at 110 +/- 5 amps.  So if your original settings and the machine were driving the 4043 wire with enough volts and amps to be in spray transfer, you most likely dropped down to globular transfer (aka spatter mode) when you switched to 5356 wire and didn't crank up the WFS.  Or your machine doesn't have enough voltage at the higher WFS to get back into spray transfer with the 5356 wire.  Btw, 0.030 aluminum wire and argon shows a transition to spray transfer at 90 +/- 5 amps.And the 0.035 5356 curve looks pretty darn close to 400 ipm to nudge past that 110 +/- amps needed for spray.  Whereas the 0.035 4043 curve has that 110 amp point clearly below 400 ipm and close to 330-350 ipm it looks like.And Rojo, I sometimes -wish- I had a "bigger animal" in the 250-class with complete voltage-amperage-WFS adjustments.  My (current) 'big' machine is a Lincoln 175.  Short answer - 5356 wire needs a faster WFS than 4043 wire for the same amperage output.If your spoolgun has a WFS range up to 400 ipm and a WFS knob/dial from 0-10, then each 'number' on the knob/dial is about 40 ipm.  If you were running the 4043 at dial #3 (120 ipm), you'd have to go to about #3.5 (140 ipm) for 5356.  If you were running the 4043 at dial #9 (360 ipm), you might run out of 'dial' because the 17% WFS increase going to 5356 means you needed 420 ipm and dial #10.2.  That assumes the Prince spoolgun only goes up to 400 ipm and has a dial/knob for the WFS from 0-10, adjust the numbers/calculations as needed for your machine/gun.And the 5xxx fillers produce more smut (aka black soot) than the 4xxx fillers just from the alloy difference.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Dang Moonrise. now THAT'S how you dig up the relevant info!!!And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Originally Posted by RojodiabloDang Moonrise. now THAT'S how you dig up the relevant info!!!
Reply:mk1:If you'd like, you can go to the left side of the page, to User CP; and fill in your location. Mine says 'Colorado'. I don't really want 'them' to get any closer. 9-11-2001......We Will Never ForgetRetired desk jockey. Hobby weldor with a little training. Craftsman O/A---Flat, Vert, Ovhd, Horz. Miller Syncrowave 250
Reply:Turned up the speed, then the voltage, then the speed again and presto! Spraying really nice and goodbye spatter. Thanks guys....
Reply:Glad it's working now.Does this count as an "I told you so"?    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseGlad it's working now.Does this count as an "I told you so"?
Reply:Showoff?  Maybe a little. Mostly just glad that the answer was right and that it fixed/helped with the problem.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...