Handrail mounting?

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I've been approached to bid a handrail job for a church entrance. Its to be installed by me and its a concrete slope approximately 40' long. From what I can see the concrete is only 4" thick. I have built and installed numerous rails and installed them by simply welding to catwalks or digging in the the earth and setting with bagged concrete. My toss up is core drilling at a 4" depth isn't much embedment of the vertical posts vs. plates and anchors or tapcons... any suggestions/tips would be appreciated. I'll attach some pictures in hopes that will help. I will be matching the existing rail for the steps obviously in sections. Attached Images
Reply:just curious;  how wide is that ramp?
Reply:Originally Posted by fdcmiamijust curious;  how wide is that ramp?
Reply:my vote would be a plate welded to the vetical post with holes so you can use some redhead expanding anchors. If you are worried make it extra tall so you can get a couple anchors in the blocks belowLincolin Power Wave 450, Lincoln Powermig 255, Lincoln Pro Mig 140, Lincoln Squarewave Tig 275, Miller Big 40 G(with Hobart Hefty suitcase), Thermal Arc 95S and Esab PCM875 in an already full machine shop.
Reply:http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm#4.8too bad they didn't put a curb in.   you're going to need a kick plate;  but you can probably skip the plate where the ramp runs along the wall.what happens at the base, do you empty into the parking lot? or is there a turn and more slope.you're going to need railing AND grip rail.   you can (again, probably) skip the rail along the wall, it will save you money on the bid.that ramp looks kind of steep in the photo;  i'd put a digital level on it and see what the rise is.good luck.of course you can core these holes;  i find coring to be preferable to fasteners but to each his own.  four inches depth is sufficient.
Reply:Originally Posted by fdcmiamihttp://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm#4.8too bad they didn't put a curb in.   you're going to need a kick plate;  but you can probably skip the plate where the ramp runs along the wall.what happens at the base, do you empty into the parking lot? or is there a turn and more slope.you're going to need railing AND grip rail.   you can (again, probably) skip the rail along the wall, it will save you money on the bid.that ramp looks kind of steep in the photo;  i'd put a digital level on it and see what the rise is.good luck.of course you can core these holes;  i find coring to be preferable to fasteners but to each his own.  four inches depth is sufficient.
Reply:Originally Posted by propanehotrodmy vote would be a plate welded to the vetical post with holes so you can use some redhead expanding anchors. If you are worried make it extra tall so you can get a couple anchors in the blocks below
Reply:you should take a look at the link i provided you.  there are ada nazi's roaming the streets of america looking to take guys like you down.  not to worry though,  the church will grant you sanctuary if they happen to see your non ada compliant ramp.
Reply:Originally Posted by fdcmiamiyou should take a look at the link i provided you.  there are ada nazi's roaming the streets of america looking to take guys like you down.  not to worry though,  the church will grant you sanctuary if they happen to see your non ada compliant ramp.
Reply:Either plates and wedge anchors, or core and use Por Rokhttp://www.cgmbuildingproducts.com/prod4.htmDisclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:I recently donated my time to do this one for my Church.  I used I believe quarter inch plate bolted down with half inch anchor bolts. Came out pretty sturdy.  Maybe you could actually do the plates on the side of the concrete.. then you would have more space and the 4 inch depth wouldn't matter?Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2 Attached Images
Reply:That ramp is definitely not ADA compliant already. It has no landings, and looks a bit too steep. If it were me, I'd ignore the rules and make it look nice, and work well, and make sure the owner of the building knows that you will not take responsibility for code compliance. If there are people using the ramp in wheel chairs, the kick plate might actually be useful.Core drilling and setting in non shrink grout will look nicer and feel stronger. Redheads into the side of the ramp will be faster and cheaper.Last edited by fortyonethirty; 04-30-2012 at 06:22 PM.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:Well you all have shed some much appreciated light on this for me. I believe I will contact the concrete fella that asked me to bid this and inquire about these things. I will show my ignorance once again though.. If there is a top rail...a bottom rail and vertical ballusters every 4"... why the toe/kick plate?
Reply:4" thick is plenty. Use a core drill and por rok, flanges are ugly. Drill your holes 3" in (unless your hole is bigger than a couple inches diameter)  pop the cores out by hammering a a screwdriver in the slot, then just set the legs in the holes, brace the rail, and fill the holes one at a time. Tap the rail with a mallet as you poor to get the por rok to settle and go up into the pipe. Set in 15 minutes and super strong after a couple days.Last edited by MikeGyver; 05-01-2012 at 04:01 AM.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:Originally Posted by MikeGyver4" thick is plenty. Use a core drill and por rok, flanges are ugly. Drill your holes 3" in (unless your hole is bigger than a couple inches diameter)  pop the cores out by hammering a a screwdriver in the slot, then just set the legs in the holes, brace the rail, and fill the holes one at a time. Tap the rail with a mallet as you poor to get the por rok to settle and go up into the pipe. Set in 15 minutes and super strong after a couple days.
Reply:It appears the width of the ramp will dictate how the rails are mounted.  The ramp appears to be narrow, thus the rails might need to be mounted on the side of the ramp. If you decide to core, then obtain the appropriate drill or sub it out.  Hence, consider the coring cost in your bid.  Unless otherwise directed, I would use plates and bolts.Scary ramp  for a wheelchair or  baby carriage.  I assume the landing is sloped away from the doors....Looks like a person pushing the  wheel chair might need to step down the steps to turn the chair toward the door.  How do the doors open with a wheel chair near it?  The doors could be like pinball flippers, when the person gets to the top of the ramp, somebody comes open the door...Perhaps you should offer to extend the landing at the top of the steps.  Either a all steel landing or a steel frame w/concrete.  Package it up and make more money.
Reply:IMNSHO, before you even attempt anything to do with railings/handrails/etc, the ramp MUST be made to comply with the applicable ADA guidelines.Which should have been part of the building permit and review process.Looks like it fails for being too steep (estimated at 42"+, based on 6 stair risers at a minimal 7" high), too long, missing/inadequate landing at top, missing 'pause' landing (related to length and slope, the 'pause' landing is there for someone in a wheel chair to be able to pause and rest for a moment while trying to haul themselves up a long and/or steep ramp), might not meet the 36" width minimal clear width, etc, etc.If the existing ramp -somehow- meets the ADA requirements (I doubt it, from over the internet, via two pictures, etc, etc) and just barely meets the 36" width requirement, then you wouldn't be able to core and mount the posts into the ramp surface, cause then you would be under the 36" width requirement.Which would then leave you the only choice as mounting the posts outboard of the ramp surface onto the sides of the ramp.And the sides of the ramp should have the temp wooden pieces removed and the face of the concrete block under-structure parged before you go and do anything.Methinks the ramp and stairs should be all rmoved and be redone.  I know, $$$$ and no one wants to pay for it.  Read above post about ADA-compliance and some lawyers just going around and looking for things like that.  It will cost waaaay less to rip all that out and redo it than to even start with an ADA non-compliance lawsuit.  Just saying.YMMV.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:..... and longest section of ramp can only be 30' , then as mentioned a landing.Sheite- they have plenty of room there for the switch back- of course this adds $$ to the project.anyhoo- most likely the suit will be on the Church and iffin' that does happen they'll settle since they want quick cash- not a long trial- which they would probably win and in this case they should.( we have tons of these lawsuits here in California: Mirror in bathroom not at the right height kind of stuff and the magic $ seems to be $4,000.00)The Church would then go after the Contractor- as they should since he is responsible for building it correctly.. which brings it all around to you as there is no way you can make this Good by building a handrail on an improperly built ramp to begin with.I'm with Moonrise- where the phuck is the permit? No way this was city approved.Sucks as someone will probably go ahead a build the handrail and probably nothing will ever come of it.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Damn. More very valuable points. Thanks fellas. Yanno.. I talked to the contractor  who just happens to be parishioner of said church who builds bridges all day long... I mentioned the steep angle. He said "It falls within spec... and it will never be inspected." Ummm, I guessing there's no permit.Not that I got the job... But, I'm actually now more worried, than excited, about building a nice rail for a church in the middle of no where. Actually really glad I posted here and bid it very high.