Do my requirements warrant the move to TIG ?

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Hello all,It looks like my cheapo MIG unit is giving up the ghost....  I do A LOT of O/A brazing and tack welding with the old MIG.  I was thinking that moving to a TIG machine may be a good idea.  Was also considering something that might do stick as well as I've never tried it and would like to.Needs are:Mostly Art based requirements.  Non-Ferrous and Mild Steel but I would very much like to foray into "Aluminum".  Nothing too thick is used in any of the above applications.  The most structurally sound 'item' I might make would be a hinged gate, likely no larger than 6 or 8 feet long at most....- All Ferrous metal thickness' would be less than 3/8' and most around the 1/8" area....(Very little of this would be structural and mostly need a simple clean bead to hold pieces together)- All NON-Ferrous metals would be less than 1/4" and mostly between 22 and 16 gauge.(All of this is very light structural and mostly ornamental)- Aluminum would be no thicker than 3/8' and likely mostly around the 1/8" area.(Once again, very little 'light structural' work and mostly ornamental.)Since I need to buy a GOOD Plasma my budget is going to suffer a bit....  I would say that $1500 - $2000 would be my limit.Thanks for your suggestions !Cheers,/Jman...
Reply:$2k would get you a Miller syncrowave 200 but you would still need a bottle. (you could use the mig bottle if you exchanged it for 100% argon.)3/8" alum is not reasonable in a $2K price range. The sync 200 will go 3/16" alum easy, 1/4" if you push it hard. You will need to get an AC/DC tig to do alum especially thin metals. This leaves out a lot of the cheap import tigs I have seen.Stainless, copper and other metals can be welded with tig, and you can braze with tig if required. I've done a moderate amount of stainless. Basically welds like steel.As far as welding tig generally requires 2 hands to run a bead so I don't know how well this would "replace" the mig.My mig tig class gets a lot of art students who want to do sculpture. Most go on to tig after mig because they can make "prettier" welds. Things that blend with out a lot of grinding.You could also look at a good 220v mig and a spoolgun to do alum. $2K would get you a fairly decent setup, but 38" alum would be pushing it depending on the machine you choose.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSW$2k would get you a Miller syncrowave 200 but you would still need a bottle. (you could use the mig bottle if you exchanged it for 100% argon.)3/8" alum is not reasonable in a $2K price range. The sync 200 will go 3/16" alum easy, 1/4" if you push it hard. You will need to get an AC/DC tig to do alum especially thin metals. This leaves out a lot of the cheap import tigs I have seen.Stainless, copper and other metals can be welded with tig, and you can braze with tig if required. I've done a moderate amount of stainless. Basically welds like steel.As far as welding tig generally requires 2 hands to run a bead so I don't know how well this would "replace" the mig.My mig tig class gets a lot of art students who want to do sculpture. Most go on to tig after mig because they can make "prettier" welds. Things that blend with out a lot of grinding.You could also look at a good 220v mig and a spoolgun to do alum. $2K would get you a fairly decent setup, but 38" alum would be pushing it depending on the machine you choose.
Reply:do it one time and do it right the dynasty 200 dxits a great tig welder but it the best stick welder there is ive stick welded steel stainless steel and alum with it dont have to worrie about powerit will plug in any where 1ph 3ph 115 230460
Reply:http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/TIGBuyersGuide.pdfhttp://www.millerwelds.com/resources/basicelec/Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Any wire fed process will have an advantage of TIG(GTAW) or Stick(SMAW) in the fact that 1) Ease of tacking . Just point and shoot. GTAW will usually always require 2 hands unless fitup is tight. SMAW can be done with one but with certain electrodes and joint configurations, it can be troubling for some. Inside corners on acute anngle corner or tee joints can be a pain with SMAW. Especially if you dont want arc marks ouside the weld zone.2) Abilty to produce good looking welds with minimum skill.3) With solid wire, a very wide latitude of heat input with only one filler metal size. Wifh FCAW same to a lesser degree.4) A much higher deposition rate than SMAW or gtaw welding similar thicknesses.5) Less loss of filler metal due to stub loss. 6) Slag free welds with solid wire as compared to SMAW.7) The ability to weld with very low heat input in short circuit mode. Joining 2 pieces of 16 ga together in a butt joint with SMAW or even GTAW can be difficult and time consuming.The disadvantages are these that I can see1) If you weld various base metals, you must have a different roll of wire for each base metal. AND change it.2) It can be difficult to make very small welds that blend in well with GMAW as opposed to GTAW. Concave welds on thin materials can be hard to achieve and if a smooth radius is required at corners, grinding woiuld often be needed.3) Working outside or in the wind can be troublesome if using a gas shielded wire. SMAW has no problems. Also note that there are self shielded FCAW wires that can do similar but often times the slag is hard to remove if settings are incorrect.4) The gun cannot reach into many places you can reach with an SMAW electrode. Even GTAW can get in some tighter spots often. Note that self shielded FCAW does have some versatility in the fact that electrical stickout can be quite long and you can get some extra reach in some situations.5) When working off of a ladder or in various locations, you must bring the wire feeder to within the 12 ish feet of your gun lead. With SMAW or GTAW you can leave the equipment where it is and run longer leads.6) Remote amperage control is not possible with GMAW or FCAW with many machines. Wire feeders do exist that allow the user to change both WFS (Amperage) and voltage at the wire feeder. But most require you to go back to the power supply. This is NA for smaller machine with integral wire feeders.7) Filler metal is required. With GTAW many applications can be welded without the use of any filler metal. This would be in non critical applications not bearing much weight. Fitup is a bit more critical though.8) Many lower cost GMAW/FCAW machines are transformer rectifier technology and thus heavier with a little higher amperage draw for a given output. For most of the thicknesses you list, this would probably not matter.9) In situations where you are tacking things together then following up with brazing, the tack welds would have to be removed it the were a visual issue. With GTAW, very small tacks with no filler metal can be made that would not be AS visible after brazing.10) If welding aluminum you would need a pure argon mix which would be different than what is needed for steel. If GTAW welding is performed with an ACHF machine, you can use ARGON. However if you are using a DC output only machine, then helium or arg helium would be needed that doesnt work as well on Carbon steel.On your question regarding AC/DC for TIG. The AC output for Tig has the advanttage of breaking up the surface oxides on aluminum while welding. This makes puddle control easier and usually a much cleaner weld. The ACHF or AC square wave machines will cost slightly more than a DC output only machine.Hope that helps. There are some machines available that are multiprocess that would be ideal.Have a nice dayhttp://www.weldingdata.com/
Reply:I just read your follow up and noted you are not doing anything but tacking. If your fitups are good, you could get away with just a TIG setup DC output only. Of course that limits you on aluminum.Small inverter can be had brand new if you dont have issues with china stuff for the $500.00 range with plasma capabilities. Dependin upon your frequency of use and urgency should there be a breakdown, this may be a good choice.Also search for older AC/DC output miller thunderbolts and AC/DC 225s by Lincoln. These machines can perform DC Tig with scratch start and a gas valve on the torch handle.Have a nice dayhttp://www.weldingdata.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by jmanAbout the "Stick" part of a TIG machine....  Would I need an AC/DC TIG for that application ?  Also, what is the benefit of AC vs AC/DC ?  I'm sorta' unclear on that....Cheers,/Jman...
Reply:AWESOME INFO.... Thanks people, but now my Brain hurts !I think I've got to figure out what it is that I REALLY need first.  I KNOW that I NEED to replace the Mild Steel problem now that the MIG is basically dead so that's pretty important.  I also think that I may want to do more stainless and eventually foray into Aluminum so I guess it's safe to say that the TIG machine is definitely something I am going to need.  Now Aluminum aside, It looks like I could get away with a much less expensive machine, right ?"Visual Welds" are also a LARGE part of the work I do....  Meaning that, I like to incorporate them into some of the work I do as it gives that 'industrial look' to pieces.  Hiding the welds is something I 'rarely do'.  What about STICK ?How do the welds and rods differ with AC vs DC ?  Do the rods and the process used with DC produce better looking welds ?  I've seen a lot about this but am a bit unclear on the differences.....  I assumed that the "Buzz Box" was a "AC ARC Welder".  Is that correct ?Can one "Tack Weld" with a ARC Welder ?Lastly,Putting aside the "Aluminum" for now and taking some of these things into consideration, would I not be able to get away with the "Invertec V160-T" ?  I see that it does pretty much everything including some aluminum (albeit,...limited).  It also has the DC stick option to run rods for thinner materials.What do you think ?Cheers,/Jman....
Reply:Jman,  what's your background in welding?  How much training, formal or informal have you had?  I ask just so we can tailor answers to suit your experience level...Seems to me that you're trying to cover alot of ground in your request for advice, and based on your followup questions, I'm not sure we're giving you enough foundation to make a good judgement on what to buy next.  This is not to say that the advice you've gotten so far is bad; but I'm getting the feeling that it's not serving you as well as it could.You're accustomed to MIG welding; but it seems to me that you're not really familiar with any of the other welding processes.  Stick welding or SMAW, can be used to tack weld.  Any process can be used to tack weld.  Stick electrodes catagorized by how they can be used to weld, and what kind of material they're intended to be used on.  Several types of stick electrodes can be welded with any polarity(DC+, DC-, or AC)  AC powersupplies are inexpensive, a Lincoln AC225 buzzbox(yes this is slag for an AC arc welder) can be had for a couple hundred dollars.  AC is harder to weld with because the arc is not as stable as a DC machine.  DC+ welding concentrates heat on the electrode, causing it to melt thoroughly and deposit a lot of material.  DC- concentrates heat on the base metal being welded; which allows for fast travel, and other traits I won't get into now.Both AC and DC stick welding can produce aesthetically pleasing welds.  DC welding has better control, and because the arc is more stable tends to produce a weld with better mechanical properties(all other things being equal).  DC welding is better suited to producing pipe welds with good integrity.  But!  AC welding can be just as good as DC welding in other applications.  There is a broader selection of stick electrodes available for use with DC current than there are for AC welding.  But based on what I'm hearing I don't think this is an issue for you.  Your needs for welding mild steel can likely be handled with one or two types of electrodes(6011 and 6013).Stick welding can be used to weld stainless steel and even aluminum.  You may need a DC power supply to weld stainless; I don't know of any AC stainless electrodes off the top of my head.  Same for Aluminum; not sure if they're compatible with AC or not.  A little research on your part should answer this question.  Stick welding stainless works just fine.  Aluminum welding with stick is a little tricky because the welder has to move very quickly.Generally speaking, stick welding requires more skill and finesse.  There are specialized techiques for welding vertically and overhead.  These skills require a great deal of practice to master.  If all your welds can be made flat, by orienting your workpiece, then stick welding is relatively easy.I suspect a Lincoln Invertec V160-T or a Miller MaxStar 150STL would handle all your needs; except for TIG welding aluminum.  For that you need an AC capable TIG welding power supply.  Still, you might want to experiement with Aluminum stick welding.  It may do all that you need.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:A_DAB_will_do nailed it pretty well. He brings up a good point I overlooked in trying to answer your question vs what might be part of your "problem"jman what sort of training in welding do you have? Is it more I just bought a machine and started to put metal together or did you do some sort of welding at the past some time like in shop class? If you are serious about making "good" welds I would look into a night class at a local votec school or community college. By "good" I don't necessarily mean strong structural welds, but welds that meet your requirements most likely in esthetics.You can make welds that "look" like they will hold up a bridge, massive piles of rippled metal, or you can make tiny welds that look like a stack of dimes and the welds become almost a pattern on the piece. You can do either of these with stick, mig, or tig. It's in the skill of the welder.At the tech school near me you start with stick. However the instructor is happy to tailor the class to the students needs. As I said we see a lot of students taking the class so they can do metal sculpture at the local college. Most do a minimum amount of stick, then do mig for its simplicity. The serious ones come back and learn tig, then try to learn "advanced" skills in all 3 types. By "advanced" I mean being able to manipulate the weld to do more than just stick 2 or more pieces together.If you want to see a true artist in metals, take a look at these projects by Swells.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...ighlight=eaglehttp://microzone.us/weldingforum/ind...pic,410.0.htmlhttp://microzone.us/weldingforum/ind...ic,1131.0.htmlThe class near me costs about $350 for 10 nights 3 hrs/night. They provide some materials and most of the wire, stick, gas etc. Our instructor was more than happy to see people bring in "projects" to work on once they got some of the basics down and would try and help obtain the desired results.
Reply:Jman, I used a 'cheapo' MIG unit for years, doing sculpture, tables, yard art. I recently switched to TIG (Maxstar STL150). But my goal is the 'prettiest' welds with the least grinding. Also, I plan to work almost exclusively with SS.Since you are not into hiding the welds, i'm inclined to think that the point 'n click convenience of MIG will make you much happier in the long run. For what you're doing, I really think you'd miss it. Replace your MIG welder with another decent MIG unit. Then think about adding a stick or tig unit in the future.Last edited by artworksmetal; 02-13-2009 at 01:22 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by A_DAB_will_doJman,  what's your background in welding?  How much training, formal or informal have you had?  I ask just so we can tailor answers to suit your experience level...Seems to me that you're trying to cover alot of ground in your request for advice, and based on your followup questions, I'm not sure we're giving you enough foundation to make a good judgement on what to buy next.  This is not to say that the advice you've gotten so far is bad; but I'm getting the feeling that it's not serving you as well as it could.You're accustomed to MIG welding; but it seems to me that you're not really familiar with any of the other welding processes.  Stick welding or SMAW, can be used to tack weld.  Any process can be used to tack weld.  Stick electrodes catagorized by how they can be used to weld, and what kind of material they're intended to be used on.  Several types of stick electrodes can be welded with any polarity(DC+, DC-, or AC)  AC powersupplies are inexpensive, a Lincoln AC225 buzzbox(yes this is slag for an AC arc welder) can be had for a couple hundred dollars.  AC is harder to weld with because the arc is not as stable as a DC machine.  DC+ welding concentrates heat on the electrode, causing it to melt thoroughly and deposit a lot of material.  DC- concentrates heat on the base metal being welded; which allows for fast travel, and other traits I won't get into now.Both AC and DC stick welding can produce aesthetically pleasing welds.  DC welding has better control, and because the arc is more stable tends to produce a weld with better mechanical properties(all other things being equal).  DC welding is better suited to producing pipe welds with good integrity.  But!  AC welding can be just as good as DC welding in other applications.  There is a broader selection of stick electrodes available for use with DC current than there are for AC welding.  But based on what I'm hearing I don't think this is an issue for you.  Your needs for welding mild steel can likely be handled with one or two types of electrodes(6011 and 6013).Stick welding can be used to weld stainless steel and even aluminum.  You may need a DC power supply to weld stainless; I don't know of any AC stainless electrodes off the top of my head.  Same for Aluminum; not sure if they're compatible with AC or not.  A little research on your part should answer this question.  Stick welding stainless works just fine.  Aluminum welding with stick is a little tricky because the welder has to move very quickly.Generally speaking, stick welding requires more skill and finesse.  There are specialized techiques for welding vertically and overhead.  These skills require a great deal of practice to master.  If all your welds can be made flat, by orienting your workpiece, then stick welding is relatively easy.I suspect a Lincoln Invertec V160-T or a Miller MaxStar 150STL would handle all your needs; except for TIG welding aluminum.  For that you need an AC capable TIG welding power supply.  Still, you might want to experiement with Aluminum stick welding.  It may do all that you need.
Reply:Originally Posted by artworksmetalJman, I used a 'cheapo' MIG unit for years, doing sculpture, tables, yard art. I recently switched to TIG (Maxstar STL150). But my goal is the 'prettiest' welds with the least grinding. Also, I plan to work almost exclusively with SS.Since you are not into hiding the welds, i'm inclined to think that the point 'n click convenience of MIG will make you much happier in the long run. For what you're doing, I really think you'd miss it. Replace your MIG welder with another decent MIG unit. Then think about adding a stick or tig unit in the future.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWA_DAB_will_do nailed it pretty well. He brings up a good point I overlooked in trying to answer your question vs what might be part of your "problem"jman what sort of training in welding do you have? Is it more I just bought a machine and started to put metal together or did you do some sort of welding at the past some time like in shop class? If you are serious about making "good" welds I would look into a night class at a local votec school or community college. By "good" I don't necessarily mean strong structural welds, but welds that meet your requirements most likely in esthetics.You can make welds that "look" like they will hold up a bridge, massive piles of rippled metal, or you can make tiny welds that look like a stack of dimes and the welds become almost a pattern on the piece. You can do either of these with stick, mig, or tig. It's in the skill of the welder.At the tech school near me you start with stick. However the instructor is happy to tailor the class to the students needs. As I said we see a lot of students taking the class so they can do metal sculpture at the local college. Most do a minimum amount of stick, then do mig for its simplicity. The serious ones come back and learn tig, then try to learn "advanced" skills in all 3 types. By "advanced" I mean being able to manipulate the weld to do more than just stick 2 or more pieces together.If you want to see a true artist in metals, take a look at these projects by Swells.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...ighlight=eaglehttp://microzone.us/weldingforum/ind...pic,410.0.htmlhttp://microzone.us/weldingforum/ind...ic,1131.0.htmlThe class near me costs about $350 for 10 nights 3 hrs/night. They provide some materials and most of the wire, stick, gas etc. Our instructor was more than happy to see people bring in "projects" to work on once they got some of the basics down and would try and help obtain the desired results.