A hard rep is good to find. I mean...

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A GOOD rep is HARD to find I've been looking into options to outfit a small custom fab facility, and along the way have contacted or been contacted by myriad representatives trying to sell me things. I just need a few recomendations from you fine folks of decent company reps, not middlemen, who could help me turn my new useless building into something... eh, less useless. I'm looking for a mig/tig/plastorch combo, just one of each for now to test the waters. I've been in contact with certain individuals at a half dozen welder manufacturers, and they've left me... non-plussed. Any suggestions?FIRE AND WIRE
Reply:Good luck! You'll need it finding them.I'd rather be hunting........USE ENOUGH HEAT.......Drifting around Aussie welding more pipe up, for something different.....wanting to get home.
Reply:What is yer budget?Fab what?Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Well Broc, I'm looking to fab heavy plate assemblies on a $5K budget, with 100A 1PH wired 220.FIRE AND WIRE
Reply:Originally Posted by JayWell Broc, I'm looking to fab heavy plate assemblies on a $5K budget, with 100A 1PH wired 220.
Reply:I'm a small shop owner of 20 years. I listen to rep's---but then demo their equipmentand personally talk to other shop owners--who are already using the same, beforethe purchase. That's been highly satisfactory.100A 1 phase, 220--is a limiting factor dependent on just 'how heavy' the plate is that  you'd be welding; presumably with MIG:? plate thickness? weld process required?-inverter MIG's normally are 3 phase, they can run on single phase, butthey're not happy about that-using 90/10 (Airgas 'Steelmix'), or 98/2 or a tri-mix can increase theeffective heat/weld capability--since those gases lower the voltagerequired. (Steelmix--which I use--cuts the voltage in half--IOW, itcan.....double the capability of the welder, while producing high qualitywelds). This a factoid normally not recognized by professional welders.In using the above 'expensive'  gases, they become 'cheaper', sinceat least with Steelmix--you're get more cubic feet in the same size bottle.(Real, bottom line costs--labor savings, etc.---are rarely considered bymany.)Blackbird
Reply:Dave powelson brings up many good points; but there's just no way to fill the grocery list in post #1 for 5K, except by buying used.Good Luck
Reply:Hey all. What I have available is a 1200 sq ft outbuilding with independent 100A 1PH 220v. The mig and cutting capabilities take precedence here, but over the years my job description has shifted from hood bound wire all day to repairs and various widgets with tig, and I really enjoy the process so I'd like to include it if possible. I know I'm pushing my limits as far as the capabilities that I want, but to make this endeavour worthwhile I really need to find a way to utilize my skill set to the fullest. are there any options as far as electrical service? I've read that anything less than a digital phase converter would damage welding machines... is that true?FIRE AND WIRE
Reply:BTW The reason I'm wondering about 3 phase is the disproportionate ammount of 3 phase equipment floating around on the auction sites and classifieds versus 1 phase...FIRE AND WIRE
Reply:This whole post is a joke. Right?By definition, "heavy plate" and 5K budget do not belong in the same discussion.Forget the power.  Any equipment he buys in that budget range will operate on 1Ph.You may be better served taking that 5K and buying 5000 lottery tickets.  Makes about as much sense as your "business plan".Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Jay - I think the very tight equipment budget could probably be met, but cashflow better come fast! Again, it would have to be strictly bargain-basement used stuff, and of course there will be no product rep standing at attention! Regardless, be sure to use good electrical calculations, because besides adding conversion losses, you must multiply a true three phase load by 1.73 when you plan on running it single phase. So 240v 60a, three phase = 240v 104a, single phase.Or the other way - Not including conversion losses, the service of 100amps @240v single phase, will provide roughly 60 amps @240v three phase.This is mostly just math though, because VA or watts, remain the same.You probably would be able to have your electrical service super-sized to 200 amps without too much trouble from the power company.Good Luck
Reply:HEAVY PLATE and 5K budget DO NOT EQUATE.Used heavy equipment that's available in that price range is junk.  You'll spend more time trying to keep it running than you do producing goods.Time to rethink the whole gameplan.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:How heavy?Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:I have to disagree about the condition of available equipment. Most of the equipment on the market today isn't being sold because it is broken down junk, or obsolete. The equipment is bargain priced because of the economic collapse in the metalworking industry, especially around Detroit, where Jay is trying to buy.For example - I very recently watched a metal shop  auction. In the sale there was a row of about ten in-service ready to weld 400 amp Lincolns, with LN7 feeders. The Lincolns sold for an average of about $400.00 each. There was nothing junk about the machines; if it weren't for the shop closing, the machines had been expected to weld for years to come.To suit Jay's job, industrial machines galore can be bought in good used condition, at bargain prices. The big hurdle here is available input power. Good LuckHere's your stinkin' picture! Attachment 30929Last edited by denrep; 08-24-2009 at 10:09 AM.
Reply:Denrep,Not an expert on used fabrication equipment in the Michigan area, but I have done a fair amount of consulting (time motion primarily) in the heavy fabrication business.Obviously, the process is more involved but basically you're dealing with:1.  Receiving raw materials.  Got to have some way to get it off the truck/railcar.  Forklift, gantry, crane, etc.2.  Cut material to dimension.  Torch, plasma, water jet, shear, etc, etc.3.  Shape material.  Press, roller, brake, etc, etc.4.  Join material.  Welding, punch and bolt, etc, etc.5.  Prep material.  Sandblasting, scraping, dip, etc, etc.6.  Prepare for shipping.  Paint, coat, treat, etc, etc.I don't give a damn if his 1200sq ft building is located on the grounds of a nuclear power plant, $5,000 is not going to "get you started" in the heavy fab business.  To even suggest to a poster that this may be a feasible objective is just crazy.With regards to your comment about a lot of shops going out of business and therefore a lot of good, used equipment is available.  You're right about one thing.  There are a lot of shops with the proper equipment that can't make it in today's times.  Those who remain, are taking on smaller jobs than in past times so that they can survive.  You think someone just starting with a $5,000 investment (probably everything he can get his hands on) is going to survive and flourish in this environment.  Maybe he should discuss his "business plan" with a banker or accountant, rather than getting BS advice on a message board.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Additionally.You may want to check out some of the other posts by this OP.This is not the only post where's he's being unrealistic and a little "out in left field".Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIDenrep,Not an expert on used fabrication equipment in the Michigan area, but I have done a fair amount of consulting (time motion primarily) in the heavy fabrication business.Obviously, the process is more involved but basically you're dealing with:1.  Receiving raw materials.  Got to have some way to get it off the truck/railcar.  Forklift, gantry, crane, etc.2.  Cut material to dimension.  Torch, plasma, water jet, shear, etc, etc.3.  Shape material.  Press, roller, brake, etc, etc.4.  Join material.  Welding, punch and bolt, etc, etc.5.  Prep material.  Sandblasting, scraping, dip, etc, etc.6.  Prepare for shipping.  Paint, coat, treat, etc, etc.I don't give a damn if his 1200sq ft building is located on the grounds of a nuclear power plant, $5,000 is not going to "get you started" in the heavy fab business.  To even suggest to a poster that this may be a feasible objective is just crazy.With regards to your comment about a lot of shops going out of business and therefore a lot of good, used equipment is available.  You're right about one thing.  There are a lot of shops with the proper equipment that can't make it in today's times.  Those who remain, are taking on smaller jobs than in past times so that they can survive.  You think someone just starting with a $5,000 investment (probably everything he can get his hands on) is going to survive and flourish in this environment.  Maybe he should discuss his "business plan" with a banker or accountant, rather than getting BS advice on a message board.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIDenrep,. . .You think someone just starting with a $5,000 investment (probably everything he can get his hands on) is going to survive and flourish in this environment.  Maybe he should discuss his "business plan" with a banker or accountant, rather than getting BS advice on a message board.
Reply:There are alot of guys that do on-site repair and fabrication of heavy equipment parts with not much more than an engine drive stick welder, a torch and a grinder...MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Jay - Here's your plasma cutter:http://detroit.craigslist.org/bar/1099007988.htmlThermal Dynamics PakMaster 100XL.He'll trade too!"...works great, looking for a stand up jet ski poss. /alumnium 16ft boat or what do you have" Good Luck
Reply:Capital is nice, but is the intangibles of character and skill that determine the success or failure of any enterprise, and a lower overhead allows one to experiment and even fail without burning down the house. More power (sic) to you, Jay.
Reply:Denrep,It's pretty obvious to me, from your postings, that you don't have a clue what "heavy fab" means.  A 250A mig, 200A tig, and a 100A plasma would be laughed at in the shops I've worked with over the last 25 years.I'm not saying a guy needs to sink 100K plus into equipment to start his own fabrication business.  What I'm saying is he needs to be realistic about what it's going to take to start any welding business.  The three pieces of equipment you keep referring to are just the tip of the iceburg when it comes to necessary equipment.I do agree with a former poster who states that some of the process can be subcontracted out.  The primary disadvantage here is you then share the profitability, are at someone else's timeframe, and you have less quality control.If you go back and read some of the OP's other postings, you'll have a better idea where I'm coming from.  He's upset because the reps he's talked to have sorta "blown him off'.  That's because he's being totally unrealistic.  He wanted all his equipment (new) from the same manufacturer.  When he finally got it through his head that that may not be the most effective method, he now wants everything from one supplier.I can just see the look on local Miller dealer if I walked in the door and told him I was getting ready to start a "Heavy Fabrication Shop".  I want to buy all my equipment from him.  And, oh, by the way.  I've got $5,000 to spend.  Bet that would get a good old "horse laugh".Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:SundownIII -As a consultant I'm sure you've heard the old adage... A good consultant is a great listener. Well this time, you're consulting without listening.Jay clearly described his desire to start a small home shop with limited resources, he was very specific about what he desired to purchase for less than $5000.00:250 amp MIG200 amp TIGPlasma machine capable of quality cuts on ½" stainless.to be installed in an upstart 1200 sq ft home-shop.That's the order I advised on filling. Why not read my replies?Jay mentioned some of his past experience: Originally Posted by Jay. . .I have a lot of experience with heavy assemblies, mostly for Big Oil and the Navy. . . .
Reply:The reason you cannot find a rep is because they are not taking you seriously.But with failing economy cash is king.You may be able to pickup alot at auctions, watching for closeouts closely.A buddy of mine went bankrupt 21 years ago, and it taught me a lesson about planning, any equipment I cannot pay for outright or afford I don't buy! And i took alot of criticism.What about materials.Now you cannot function without a 30 day revolving line of credit or more. What will you do with people that invoice with 75, 90, 120+ days before payment?And bad debt losses?Do you have a good banker you can go to with invoicing?