Got to pass up a job and I REALLY need it but can't do it for stupid reason.

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I am pretty upset that I am going to have to pass on a welding job that could pay quite well. It is building a custom toolbox for a guy. He designed it and it is easy enough to build and he has no problem paying for good work.So why am I having to pass it up? He saw a photo posted by ZTFab from a thread on this forum called MIG LIKE TIG that my son printed out and showed him. My son made a big deal about how these were mig welds and were awesome.He wants the toolbox welds to look like that. Well, guess what, I can't do that.I tried to explain that although ZTFab has very good looking welds they are not the ONLY welds that will hold his box together. He does not care, he wants that look on his toolbox.The box will be made and then it will be "Engine Turned" (not sure what it is really called but the swirls overlapping)  and then painted by an auto shop with clear coat. I have to agree that it will look cool and if welded like ZTFab did in the photo will surely hold well.I can't TIG it because (besides not ever having TIG welded), get this, ZTFab did not TIG his welds. He wants them JUST LIKE the photo and since those were MIG welds, that is all that is acceptable weld for this guy.I told him that the only way to get that would be to send it to ZTFab and have him build it but I know that won't happen. If anyone, especially ZTFab can shed some light on how to do this I would appreciate it. It is a very unique box and I will have a couple weeks to practice. Plus it would be good advertisement for me.The metal will be 1/8" thick and edge welded like the photo.I have tried to accomplish this look by getting a puddle started and then move about a quarter inch and let the puddle build again and keep moving. Unfortunately the first puddle does not cool fast enough to let the rings form. I know triggering between puddles won't work.I also tried getting a puddle going and then move a bit and then come back towards the puddle in an attempt to build up the ring. I guessed that I could make that work but no luck.It could be I am doing it correctly with the wrong settings or something but I am not having any luck.Yes, the guy is picky but I REALLY need the work so I will learn what I can to do the job.If anyone can shed some light on this, I would REALLY appreciate it.I don't know what the hell to do to get that look and will probably just have to pass on the job.
Reply:That photo looks like TIG on stainless.
Reply:Bob,IIRC, ZTFab (Paul) does some MIG welds like that by doing a '2 steps forward then one step back, pause, then 2 steps forward and one step back, pause, repeat'.And yes, the overlapping swirls is called engine turning.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:You could try to do a bunch of over lapping tacks. Or you try to go forward and then back into the puddle, forward then back forward back...  Heres my mig like tig. Well actually this was fluxcore wire.Ya gotta spend money to make money!
Reply:I remember those welds. And I asked about the same question. ZTFab's answer was something like "I weld in small circles". Maybe PM him, it didn't seem like he was trying to hide any secrets. Good luck, I'm rootin' for you. 9-11-2001......We Will Never ForgetRetired desk jockey. Hobby weldor with a little training. Craftsman O/A---Flat, Vert, Ovhd, Horz. Miller Syncrowave 250
Reply:It is a circular pattern.  If I'm moving right to left I'm going in a clockwise motion.  If left to right it's a counter clockwise motion.  Mine ain't as good as Paul's but it's the same motions.  And tacking is NOT the way to do it, that's how people that don't know what they're doing do it DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:Yup, small circles.  Very easy to do actually.
Reply:Don't I wish!!    I can't even weld a straight line for two inches much less anything like those photos..nice looking and boy do I envy the "artist" that can make something as nice as those photos show.
Reply:Wax On Wax OffEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Hey Ed,I am doing my best to keep my MIG working. Got a few things going all at once, small jobs but work just the same. Anything is helpful.As for the wax on, wax off. I just need the "Just throw wax at it" training course in time to get this toolbox job. Luckily I am in the middle of building a "Kettle Corn" popper right now so I will practice as I earn.Also got a guy wanting me to build an adjustable height pull-up bar that can be mobile. Something similar to this image, just have to figure out tube wall thickness. Thought about using trailer receiver hitch dimensions so I can use the scraps for my welding trailer.ZTFab where are you, I need help.Last edited by Bob Warner; 05-14-2009 at 12:22 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by TSORYup, small circles.  Very easy to do actually.
Reply:I've got faith in ya Bob!  Just keep your circles tight and fairly quick with a little more hesitation toward the top of the circle.DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:Dewatne,I will be trying your suggestion first thing in the morning. I hope to get this down as it will get me in Cahoots with all the local truck nuts. They will spend any amount of cash to have something cool. Once you are "the man for welding" the work follows until you screw something up and refuse to fix it.
Reply:Oh and don't let the son around the printer or area when potential clients are around. Unless it's something you can do better or as well. Good luck with the tool box job.Miller Thunderbolt 225Millermatic 130 XPLincoln HD 100 Forney C-5bt Arc welderPlasma Cutter Gianteach Cut40ACent Machinery Bandsaw Cent Machinery 16Speed Drill PressChicago Electric 130amp tig/90 ArcHobart 190 Mig spoolgun ready
Reply:Originally Posted by STwelderOh and don't let the son around the printer or area when potential clients are around. Unless it's something you can do better or as well. Good luck with the tool box job.
Reply:If those two folks in the white Tee shirts are going to be using that pull-up bar, you better use 6" I-beam. Good luck getting into the truck crowd. That could work out very well for you. Silence + Alfred + shop rag.   Last edited by Craig in Denver; 05-14-2009 at 02:13 AM.9-11-2001......We Will Never ForgetRetired desk jockey. Hobby weldor with a little training. Craftsman O/A---Flat, Vert, Ovhd, Horz. Miller Syncrowave 250
Reply:Originally Posted by Craig in DenverIf those two folks in the white Tee shirts are going to be using that pull-up bar, you better use 6" I-beam.
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob WarnerAlso got a guy wanting me to build an adjustable height pull-up bar that can be mobile. Something similar to this image, just have to figure out tube wall thickness. Thought about using trailer receiver hitch dimensions so I can use the scraps for my welding trailer.
Reply:hey bob, i sent you an email, but looks like you have the same answer here.  i saw your post yesterday but wasn't able to post from that computer.  one thing i need to add is don't try this free handed.  brace your welding hand and use both hands.  it is far easier to stay consistent with two hands braced off.  if it were me, i would also run the welds vertical down.
Reply:Bob, I think how I would handle this problem is first, Whip your son's tail, and explain to him to WHEN to keep is mouth closed,   Then practice the circles.  Just as stated before it is a circular pattern.  It's not that hard to do, BUT it is tough to get the consistency that ZTfab does while doing it.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:garythenuke,My plan for the pull-up bar was to make it look like the photo. I would use Square tubing about 3/8" thick for the bottom and get some that slides inside that for the top. The height would be adjusted by removing pins and sliding the top up and down and re-pinning (like you lock in a receiver hitch). I would also add a nut welded on so I could screw in a bolt with a handle so it could be tightened to avoid any rocking or movement in the tube.Could also split the bottom in half and pin it as well to get it all apart for moving.Have not really studied it yet.
Reply:Bob,Are you talking about 3/8" wall thickness????The entire thing can be made from .120 TubingI imagine you can also make it using telescoping  Tubing like used on Street sign postshttp://www.alliedtube.com/steel-tube...telescopic.aspEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Hey Bob, Keep in mind the joint design for those outside corners. You may not want them exactly corner to corner, but the fillet created by the joint will have an effect on the amount of deposition and thus affect your technique. You might also try to set up a piece of angle or something similar to rest your hand on and slide along as a guide (I call them bird perches) for long runs. Sometimes I'll tack one right to the piece then cut and clean off the tacks. When you practice, focus on developing a cadence. Use the intersecton of the leading edge of the weld and seam for a reference or aiming point for the next. I'm willing to bet a long tall cold one you'll have it down in a short time. Good luck!maniak
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Bob,Are you talking about 3/8" wall thickness????The entire thing can be made from .120 TubingI imagine you can also make it using telescoping  Tubing like used on Street sign postshttp://www.alliedtube.com/steel-tube...telescopic.asp
Reply:Originally Posted by chicksdigwagonsI'd go so far as to say 1/8" to be excessive for a pull up bar frame where the majority of the force is compressive in nature.OK, I didn't read that your metal was 1/8th thick. I know tacking is not the way to do it, but i thought you were welding 18 guage sheet. If you were using the 18 gauage sheet the tacking method would work. My misunderstanding.Ya gotta spend money to make money!
Reply:it almost looks like the welds in this photo: http://www.modernapplicationsnews.co...08_stitch.aspxThis guy stitch welds his trucks.  Looks like it would take forever.
Reply:Try to get a rhythm going and be in a comfortable position if at all possible. An old welder once told me to count, like 1-2-3  1-2-3 or whatever and it helps me keep it uniform like that.
Reply:Have your SON practice his circles!! Old enough to print, old enough to weld.      Darn those are all pretty welds!past work toys; lathes,mills, drills, saws,  robots, lasers ironworker, shears, brake, press, grinders, tensile tester,  torches, tigs, migs, sticks, platten table, positioner,  plasmas , gleeble and spot. Retired June 30, 2009.
Reply:Bob, anybody that can make the knives you make can make a weld with a MIG that will match (close enough) what your striving for. Practise using the circle method and counting out a cadence. All he has that you don't is experience and a very obvious steady hand. Practise, practise, practise. Get yourself some sheet metal and build yourself a toolbox. By the time your finished with it you can post your own photos looking as good as ZTFab! I'm not a MIG welder, but I've had runs with them where my welds looked pretty much as good as his. Some days your hand is steadier than others. Mine is anyway. A lot of what he's got is the welder set to specs for the project too. Everyone wants to talk about speed...hell, turn the wire feed DOWN and take your time. When your welds are satisfactory enough to suit you, turn it up a little.Oh yeah, find somethin' for the boy to do besides bite you in the butt. Sounds like he needs CHORES to do when you have a potential customer lurkin'! A little confidence in yourself goes a long ways, and practise builds confidence. You can do it Bob, we all have confidence in you.Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.                                         -Cree Indian ProverbSA 200 LincolnVictor Torches
Reply:Looks like stitch welding:http://www.modernapplicationsnews.co...08_stitch.aspx
Reply:Originally Posted by JC'sWeldingLooks like stitch welding:http://www.modernapplicationsnews.co...08_stitch.aspx
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabThat will help control the width of the toe as you practice consistency left to right.- Paul
Reply:Thanks for responding Paul.I do have a couple more questions for you.First, my Millermatic 210 has TAPS instead of variable voltage. Since the material to be welded is 1/8" should I use the 1/8" tap and just slow the wire speed? I cannot find anything telling me what each tap represents.You use .030 wire. I have a 44lb spool of ER70S-6 .035 wire on my welder. Should I change this? I also have two 44lb spools of .035 ER70S-3 ($15 each) waiting their turn.As for direction. I am right handed and like to drag the gun. Which direction and angle do you work at?I have a hard time staying straight. Is there something I can use to draw borders to follow? I have the silver pencils and soapstone but still have difficulty seeing them. I am old, what can I say?Backstepping. Not sure what you mean. Did you start at the 6" mark and weld back to the corner then backstep to the 12" mark and weld back to the start of the first weld? Not sure what you mean here.As soon as I get the Kettle Corn Popper out of the shop I will be practicing on this technique.I may PM you in the future with more questions, thank you and all the other for helping me out. Seem like all I have been doing is asking for help and not helping others much. I REALLY appreciate it. Please feel free to offer more tips if you have them.Now to find a fireproof pillow to help me get comfortable.Bob
Reply:Originally Posted by Craig in DenverSo does that make you right handed; pulling? Or left handed; pushing?TIA, Craig
Reply:Originally Posted by littlefuzzIt is a circular pattern.  If I'm moving right to left I'm going in a clockwise motion.  If left to right it's a counter clockwise motion.  Mine ain't as good as Paul's but it's the same motions.  And tacking is NOT the way to do it, that's how people that don't know what they're doing do it Attachment 33152
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob WarnerThanks for responding Paul.I do have a couple more questions for you.First, my Millermatic 210 has TAPS instead of variable voltage. Since the material to be welded is 1/8" should I use the 1/8" tap and just slow the wire speed? I cannot find anything telling me what each tap represents.You use .030 wire. I have a 44lb spool of ER70S-6 .035 wire on my welder. Should I change this? I also have two 44lb spools of .035 ER70S-3 ($15 each) waiting their turn.As for direction. I am right handed and like to drag the gun. Which direction and angle do you work at?I have a hard time staying straight. Is there something I can use to draw borders to follow? I have the silver pencils and soapstone but still have difficulty seeing them. I am old, what can I say?Backstepping. Not sure what you mean. Did you start at the 6" mark and weld back to the corner then backstep to the 12" mark and weld back to the start of the first weld? Not sure what you mean here.As soon as I get the Kettle Corn Popper out of the shop I will be practicing on this technique.I may PM you in the future with more questions, thank you and all the other for helping me out. Seem like all I have been doing is asking for help and not helping others much. I REALLY appreciate it. Please feel free to offer more tips if you have them.Now to find a fireproof pillow to help me get comfortable.Bob
Reply:Originally Posted by ss42768Littlefuzz, you need to be very careful welding materials of thicknesses greater than 1/8"-3/16" with this technique, as a serious lack of fusion can occur. One of the factors to a good Mig weld is to keep the arc on the leading edge of the puddle, this circle or whip technique does not accomplish that. Excessive torch movements can lead to concave and undersized weld throats (as is pictured on the thicker weldment) Just my .02
Reply:Posted by Bob earlier:I may PM you in the future with more questions, thank you and all the other for helping me out. Seem like all I have been doing is asking for help and not helping others much. I REALLY appreciate it. Please feel free to offer more tips if you have them.
Reply:Originally Posted by johnny5That photo looks like TIG on stainless.
Reply:Originally Posted by johnny5That photo looks like TIG on stainless.
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabI would have to disagree with that. Here are some sample pieces I did in 1/8" and 3/16".
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob WarnerNow to find a fireproof pillow to help me get comfortable.Bob
Reply:Thanks all.OK I will not PM ZTFab and keep this in the thread so others benefit from his helping me.I have an adjustable hood from 9-13. It tends to move all by itself so I taped it down at 9. My problem is that the mig gun itself hides where I am going and without lines to follow I tend to wander around. I really need to find something to mark with that will keep me on track.As for my kid. He is 18 years old and between cars, motorcycles and boobs, the rest of the world does not exist. But I am not mad at him, he may have put me in a position to learn something that I had no plans of learning and it could make a few bucks with the help of Paul and all the rest of the people here.I have to admit, Paul's welding looks great to me and I want to learn to be as good at it as he is. If you got to weld it, you may as well make it look great also. IF the weld is done right and can look like that, I am all for it.Bob
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob WarnerOK I will not PM ZTFab and keep this in the thread so others benefit from his helping me.
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob WarnerThanks all.OK I will not PM ZTFab and keep this in the thread so others benefit from his helping me.Bob
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabHeck, I've even had Oxymoron (John) over at my shop last Saturday teaching him how to TIG weld.
Reply:I was wondering the same thing?MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55Do you make house calls Paul?
Reply:So Bob....where are the pics of your welds?http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories