Using a backing bar in 3g MIG certification WTF?

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I stunbled upon this.http://www.gowelding.org/3G_MIG_Weld...tification.htmHaving recently done this test in ARC and MIG I am flabbergasted that a backing bar was able to be used.In my experience, the root run was the hardset because of the skill required to not punch a whopping great hole in the bevelled edge and have exactly 2mm of flow visible from the back of the plates.Last edited by Hanzelz; 07-31-2012 at 08:03 PM.
Reply:Your link is 404. page not found.But if I am reading you correctly. You don't understand welding procedures or weld joints vary well.A common procedure is a bevel joint with backing. Find  a copy of AWS D1.1 and all will be revealed.
Reply:Link might work now.In Brisbane, Australia, where I did my certifications, a backing plate was not allowed.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardYour link is 404. page not found.
Reply:Why would you not use a backing bar on plate? On pipe an open root is understandable because a backing bar would impede the flow of fluid.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:Originally Posted by MikeGyverWhy would you not use a backing bar on plate? On pipe an open root is understandable because a backing bar would impede the flow of fluid.
Reply:Not sure why I was never told to use one.I had two plates, bevilled the same as in the article, 3.2mm apart, so there was a 3.2 gap the entire way up, tacked at the top and bottom.We were allowed if we wanted to use a brace if we chose to but it didn't go anywhere near the root.Why would you want to use a backing plate?Isn't the certifcation designed to demonstrate your ability to join two seperate plates together, not three?
Reply:Originally Posted by HanzelzNot sure why I was never told to use one.I had two plates, bevilled the same as in the article, 3.2mm apart, so there was a 3.2 gap the entire way up, tacked at the top and bottom.We were allowed if we wanted to use a brace if we chose to but it didn't go anywhere near the root.Why would you want to use a backing plate?Isn't the certifcation designed to demonstrate your ability to join two seperate plates together, not three?
Reply:Well FB when I get a chance to download it and read it, I will.Until then however I will be pretty chuffed that I passed my test.
Reply:https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9Z...zdPeGxHY3MwNDA
Reply:Link doesn't work for me FB.Are you as cranky as your posts read or am I making this up?
Reply:No, I just don't suffer fools easily. I am direct to the point and I call em as I see em
Reply:I was trying to share an out of date AWS D1.1 but I don't know where to host it.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardNo, I just don't suffer fools easily. I am direct to the point and I call em as I see em
Reply:Originally Posted by HanzelzWell you probably aren't interested in how you come across either then.I am not a fool and take offense to being called one.Now back to the back bar thingy.
Reply:FB just one of several places that supposedly have free downloads of D1.1...http://www.4shared.com/office/GzOIeo..._d11_2010.htmlI know some one here posted up a link I used in the past to download a copy, but I can't locate the exact one right now..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Well FB you sound like a dick.I do believe you about the backing plate so reading the document isn't that important to me.I am more interested in finding out why I wasn't asked to use one here in Australia.Im assuming it might make 6G slightly easier for us if we haven't used a backing plate before.The root weld had to be no more than 2mm high on the back of the plates too.
Reply:Originally Posted by HanzelzWell FB you sound like a dick.I do believe you about the backing plate so reading the document isn't that important to me.I am more interested in finding out why I wasn't asked to use one here in Australia.Im assuming it might make 6G slightly easier for us if we haven't used a backing plate before.The root weld had to be no more than 2mm high on the back of the plates too.
Reply:I didn't say that I wouldn't read the book. I do want to.It's just it's been hard to track down, that's all.I'm certainly not ignorant. I am trying to work out why we do not use a plate and why the article I posted has. I think what I am doing is far from being ignorant. I'm asking questions to learn things.Your sentence...'The procedure is written to have or not have backing and that is what you do. 'Could you explain that further please?
Reply:Originally Posted by HanzelzI didn't say that I wouldn't read the book. I do want to.It's just it's been hard to track down, that's all.I'm certainly not ignorant. I am trying to work out why we do not use a plate and why the article I posted has. I think what I am doing is far from being ignorant. I'm asking questions to learn things.Your sentence...'The procedure is written to have or not have backing and that is what you do. 'Could you explain that further please?
Reply:^ wow you are cranky too!But you gave me good info so thanks you for that.I'm new to welding and the use or not use of a backing bar wasn't explained to me during my learning and testing. I came hear to get some answers and learn some stuff about welding.I feel I have been very polite and articulate in my posts and questions.I have visited this site heaps before I started posting. I'm not a troll.I agree with an open root being easier in MIG for me but certainly not in stick.Anyway I do have another trade. I'm an ICU and E.R (we call it ED here in OZ) nurse with 23 years experience.Most recently I have been specialising in quality and risk management though.Kind of implementing systems into health care to keep our patients safer while they are with us.I am looking at getting a perfect 'work life balance' where I nurse some days and weld others.Maybe you guys should go a little easier on newbies asking questions?Just sayin.
Reply:There were plenty of explanations given, but you seemed to just dismiss them and continue to ask "why" and "that's dumb... I like open root, so why isn't it open root?"  Generally speaking, it's not our place as welder's to ask why.  Asking the question "why" is a question for the engineers.  They're the ones who are signing off with their expertise and liability that a weld performed to this specification, this code, this process, this filler, this gas, this voltage, etc... will hold up to the engineered requirements for the application.  Generally, they may hit a point where they say "huh... I've got this joint here that will need to be welded for final assembly, but I know dick about welding..." and they'll consult with a weld process engineer about it.  I think some here on the forum just got tired of trying to explain to you that sometimes they'll tell you to weld it with a backing bar, because that will likely mirror what will happen on the product... and sometimes they'll tell you to close the open root... because that's what will mirror the product.As far as open root being easier with mig, that's quite a subjective statement.  I've used a squirt gun plenty, and I still end up throwing whiskers of wire out to the back side of open roots with MIG.... you have to be really on top of your angle, speed, and wire position within the puddle to keep it right.  Personally, an open root with a 1/8" 6010 rod set at about 75 amps with a medium dig setting for me is the cat's a55 when it comes to closing up a 3/32" gap... you can practically do it with your eyes closed and just do it by sound and know when the arc is penetrating to the back side of the joint.
Reply:where did I ever say this? "that's dumb... I like open root, so why isn't it open root?"Anway I reckon we leave it here.Mods could you please lock this thread?
Reply:I know that's not what you said.  That was a fabricated paraphrasing of the general tone of some of your posts that I attributed to you in the form of a quote.Again, not being cranky, just pointing out the general tone that came across in your posts as-written.  Nothing personal.  I'm sure you didn't mean to project such a tone, we can just leave it at that.  Feel free to ask any other questions you may have about common codes and/or processes that go with those codes.
Reply:Originally Posted by Hanzelzwhere did I ever say this? "that's dumb... I like open root, so why isn't it open root?"http://artoftrolling.files.wordpress...hame-on-me.jpg
Reply:Originally Posted by Hanzelz^ wow you are cranky too!But you gave me good info so thanks you for that.I'm new to welding and the use or not use of a backing bar wasn't explained to me during my learning and testing. I came hear to get some answers and learn some stuff about welding.I feel I have been very polite and articulate in my posts and questions.I have visited this site heaps before I started posting. I'm not a troll.I agree with an open root being easier in MIG for me but certainly not in stick.
Reply:If you PM me with an email address I think I can email a copy just make sure you have the ability to accept a large file. If you use dropbox share a folder with me and I'll drop the only digital copy I have in it.
Reply:pm'd...........
Reply:Originally Posted by W123BenzAgain, not being cranky, just pointing out the general tone that came across in your posts as-written.  Nothing personal.  I'm sure you didn't mean to project such a tone, we can just leave it at that.
Reply:Originally Posted by HanzelzMaybe a poll is justified to see how many thought like you and FB, those who didn't and those who could't care?
Reply:For the record, I thought FB was being a prick, and W123 was being a limp prick, but it is what it is, and they definitely went out of their way to help Hanzelz out with the issue at hand, especially FB.  Good on them for that.-AaronJet 17.5" Drill Press1942 South Bend 16x84 Lathe1980s Miller 320A / BP --- 2013 Power Mig 2562012 Jet 7x12 Horizontal BandsawVictor O/A Setup
Reply:No doubt about it. I am a dick. I am not here to make friends. I don't care if most of you all  like me or not. Those that know differently know who they are. I will likely never meet any of you face to face. So lets not pretend to be best buds.If I can help I will always.
Reply:Originally Posted by hypothecaryIf at all possible I'd like to see a link to D1.1 before closing this.EDIT: sorry, Benz. I didn't see your last post. I just want to read D1.1......
Reply:Originally Posted by rabidchimpFor the record, I thought FB was being a prick, and W123 was being a limp prick, but it is what it is, and they definitely went out of their way to help Hanzelz out with the issue at hand, especially FB.  Good on them for that.-Aaron
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireThe link to the 2008 version FB posted in #10 worked fine for me... just click on the URL rather than trying to copy and paste it.
Reply:Originally Posted by hypothecaryThe link does work but google docs kept freezing my computer last night. After a couple hours of updating I was able to download all 563 pages today.
Reply:Originally Posted by hypothecaryThe link does work but google docs kept freezing my computer last night. After a couple hours of updating I was able to download all 563 pages today.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardNow read section 3 procedures and section 4 qualification.