RF and Garage Door Openers

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A year and a half ago, I put my Syncrowave in my garage, and I've been welding with it out there ever since.  I also had and sold a couple other welders during that time, a Diversion and a Lincoln MIG, and a couple plasma cutters have been through here as well.  Until last weekend, none of them ever bothered my garage door opener.  Some where even plugged into the same 110v circuit that powers the door opener.   Since then, about every fifth time I strike an arc, the opener runs.  It's very annoying, and I have to switch off the circuit that powers it.   Anyone have ideas about why this is suddenly a problem?  I haven't touched the Syncrowave's 220v circuit since I originally ran it, and everything is well grounded ( metal conduit everywhere ).  I haven't changed anything else lately either.   For what it's worth, the opener is Genie Intellicode, which is about 13 years old.  Is it just so old that it's getting senile?  I would hope not.   Thanks.__David Hillman
Reply:Just throwing it out there, Maybe try to shield the saftey sensors on the track from the arc.
Reply:I'm sorry, but that's just hysterical.  Maybe try adjusting the HF points on the Syncro?TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:I had an old SA Smith welder that would turn on and off a remote controlled ceiling fan light.  I ran a ground from the welder case to an earth ground and the problem went away.  I hope this helps.Dan
Reply:I second the run a ground from the machine to a rod pounded in the ground.   If you look up the user manual on line you can find the instructions for doing it right.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:The machine chassis should be grounded through the building ground. Often it's tempting to add a secondary ground on the machine to isolate a noise issue but it can cause safety issues and definitely is discouraged by code. I'd check the grounds on the opener and the welder and make sure they're not open.Is the problem seasonal? During the summer ground resistance can go high. Try watering your ground rods by running the hose around them for a while and see if the problem goes away.The problem could be with the opener being sensitive and/or poorly designed for noise resistance. If you have a generator (or maybe a UPS) you could plug the opener into it and see if it still is affected. If the problem goes away then it's wiring noise.
Reply:Whenever I strike an arc within 5 feet of my stereo with my tig welder, the radio will turn itself off.  Kind of annoying.  They are not even on the same circuit or anything.  Guess it is just the right (or wrong) frequency to operate the power of the stereo, lol.
Reply:Had the garage doors and openers replaced a few years ago.  Noticed one door open when we hadn't been out.  Found that the receiver was locked up and had to be unplugged to clear it.  Of course, this happened after the warranty expired.  I've found that lightning, the central air compressor turning on, or an iron being turned on in the laundry room (beside the garage) will trigger it.  I swapped the receiver boards between the two openers and the problem followed the board.My solution was to put an X10 power controller in the line to the opener and leave it turned off until I need to open/close that garage door.  Yes, I have an extra remote in the truck (for the X10 unit), but it works and I know the door won't open because of some outside power glitch.
Reply:I own a garage door company in the DFW area and I see alot of Genie openers get locked on the RF side and plain wont operate until you reset it by unplugging the unit. Genie also uses a 315MHz and 390MHz frequency. Rolling code or intelicode means nothing with outside interference. I have replaced many boards with the issue of going into lock out from different things being plugged in or run near the opener.. It has gotten to be such a problem with genie being bought out by overhead that now the warranty just flat out sucks and they dont warranty much with out a tech coming out charging a sevice call fee and trying to get one or two of those until they decide to warranty the product.Here lately with one customer he has gone through three receiver boards doing three different things all replacement boards that he just put his old one back in and just unplugs the unit to reset it. when it gives him problems. I also use liftmaster as the opener of our choice due to the extras and so on plus the no hassle warranty they offer. I have also seen some verizon boxes in garages cause interference with openers as well
Reply:The HV arc starter in TIG machines produces a white noise type of RF signal, and it will affect everything electronic if it's level gets high enough at the location of the receiving electronic device. It's not limited to just certain frequencies. It affects all frequencies. The best way to avoid problems from it is to shield and ground the source enclosure, including the leads. By ground I mean connect it to an 8' copper clad ground rod driven into the ground until only an inch or to is exposed. Use a #4 solid wire and the proper clamps and lugs to connect it to the welder case with as short of a connection as reasonably possible. Don't depend on the electrical ground in the power cord and wiring as it isn't sufficient for reducing electrical interference noise.For the piece of electronic equipment that's being affected, grounding the case, shielding the wiring, and grounding the shields should help. More distance from the welder should make a big difference too. The only sure way to eliminate the problem will be to try different grounding/shielding techniques to se which work the best and are the least inconvenient. Work on the source first. When you have done as much as you can, then see if you can correct the problems at the receiving end.CharleyMiller MM252Miller Bobcat 225NTMiller DialArc HF / DIY Cooler2 Victor O/A TorchsetsMilwaukee 8" Metal SawMilwaukee Dry Cut "Chop" Saw 5 Ton Wallace Gantry Various Grinders, Benders, etc.
Reply:For what it's worth, I have a problem with HF signals affecting my DSL modem in the house, not a garage door (I don't have a garage).  I have a small 110V inverter welder in my shop, which uses HF for a hot start only to assist in striking an arc, then reverts to "regular" current when welding.  I noticed that every time I went out to the shop and welded, upon returning to the house later, my DSL modem would not connect with the internet.  At first, I thought the modem was defective (I have had a few in the past), but after doing quite a bit of internet research, found that the very short bursts of HF on inverter-type welders that have a "hot start" feature can affect some electronic equipment.  I now unplug the modem and computer when welding and reconnect when finished...problem solved.My shop is about 100' from the house and meter box.  Shop power is it's own 110V circuit with a breaker box, tapped off the meter box that feeds the house.  I assume that the HF interference is coming in via the wiring.  The distance is too far for the HF signal to affect the house electronics via air propagation.  The computer and wi-fi router are apparently not affected by the HF signal, just the modem.  I am reluctant to disconnect the ground from the meter box and put in a ground rod for the shop for fear of creating a ground loop, and also I'm not sure that the HF is not going into the house via the neutral/hot wires.Anyway, if anyone is using an inverter welder with a hot start feature, it may be affecting electronics other than your garage door opener.
Reply:Code now requires that sub panels in detached buildings each have a ground rod as well as being connected together by a ground wire, so adding one at your garage will be a good thing. The code now wants two ground rods spaced 5' apart and connected to the main electric service via #4 solid bare copper wire.  Increasing the number of grounds on your system is a good thing, and can only improve your safety and reduce susceptability to electrical noise. Also, make certain that your TV cable and phone lines have a connection to your electric panel ground. They usually do this with a #12  ga wire that clamps to your power system ground wire between the panel and the ground rod. If your modem is the only thing being affected, maybe connecting it to an outlet that's powered from the other side of your electric service would help. This is fairly easily done by finding the breaker that powers your modem and moving it to a position that connects it to the other incoming power line. If you have no extra spaces try swapping breaker positions with another breaker. Just make sure you are moving it to the other power line. Most panels have the single pole breaker connections that alternate between the power lines, so you can swap two side by side breakers to accomplish this. I'm out of ideas. If you try these and still have a problem, reply to this post again with your results and I'll try to help further. CharleyMiller MM252Miller Bobcat 225NTMiller DialArc HF / DIY Cooler2 Victor O/A TorchsetsMilwaukee 8" Metal SawMilwaukee Dry Cut "Chop" Saw 5 Ton Wallace Gantry Various Grinders, Benders, etc.
Reply:Maybe it was getting smoky and it needed some fresh air.
Reply:You're sure no one is messing with you?There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammerYou're sure no one is messing with you?
Reply:Charley...Thanks for the info on the grounding.  The phone company here drives a ground rod for their own use right under the phone service entrance on the side of the house.  The modem is powered of course, and uses the house wiring ground.  I might go ahead and install a ground rod for the shop...like you said, it won't hurt (unless I generate a ground loop, which I don't want).  We live in a rural area out in the county, and there are no required electrical codes for the county.  The house was built new several years ago by a home builder, and was built to "code" for a nearby city.  I have done some electrical work, and wired the subpanel for the shop which was built a bit later.  The shop is basically up to snuff for the "city code" except for the ground you mentioned.  Wiring is all 12/2 w/ground Romex.It will have to be a short rod, since we live in a hilly area of exposed rock outcrops and T-posts for fences only go about 1-3 feet into the ground.  I hardly ever get to use a shovel; usually a pick and/or sledge hammer    The ground rods for the house and meter box were deeper, since they drove them into the trenches the backhoes made to bury the utilities.  The shop location was dozered out of a hillside, lots of rock.Last edited by shortfuse; 08-07-2012 at 03:43 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by shortfuseThanks for the info on the grounding.  The phone company here drives a ground rod for their own use right under the phone service entrance on the side of the house.  The modem is powered of course, and uses the house wiring ground.
Reply:Originally Posted by rlitmanWhere is "here"?  In the northeast, only a few years ago, Verizon lost a lawsuit regarding their FIOS installs, because their standard installation violated codes for proper grounding.Since then, they have changed their installation to be compliant.  Having a separate ground rod for the phone system, as you do, can cause problems, depending on your soil conditions, as there is the potential for a significant voltage to exist between the two ground sources.  A large wire connecting all of your ground rods (and water main, if you have a copper main), would alleviate this.
Reply:Originally Posted by shortfuse"Here" is Arkansas.As for multiple grounding points, that was exactly what I eluded to earlier on...that I was refraining from having that situation which probably would create a ground loop(s)...house, shop, etc.Additionally, I can't/don't dictate how the local phone company installs their systems.
Reply:When I first bought my home the electric service and grounding system was a disaster. Something blew up or burned up about once a month during thunderstorm season. Shortly after moving in I replaced the entire electric service and the ground system. (I'm a licensed contractor). That was almost 30 years ago and we haven't had a lightning problem since. The following describes my home's electric service as it exists today. I had never tried to weld at my home with the original electric service. It had enough trouble just keeping the lights lit and the frig working.My home now has 2 vertical 8' ground rods 10' apart and one horizontal 8' ground rod that's buried 3' below the surface, all connected with #4 bare copper wire to the main electric service panel ground buss. The telephone and cable service boxes are mounted on the wall alongside the electric service. Each has it's own ground rod and connection, but then there is a bonding jumper between these grounds and the house electric service ground. This bonding jumper guarantees that there is no potential (voltage) difference between the grounds of the three systems, so no stray currents should ever be able to go through the home electronics from one system to the other. I also have a 100 amp 240 volt sub panel in a barn / woodshop that's located 170' from the house main panel, and a 60 amp 240 volt sub panel located in a well house that's 120' away in the opposite direction. Each of these panels has it's own 8' ground rod and #4 bare ground wire run to the ground buss in them.  The main electric service cable runs underground from a pole at the street almost 300' to the main panel on the house and all of the sub panels are connected by a ground conductor in the cable to the main service panel ground buss. I live in central North Carolina, a location known for frequent and severe lightning storms. I also occasionally connect welders to this electric service for doing some home projects. When I've used my DialArc HF here at the house I have sometimes noticed a slight static hiss in the TV audio, but no problems with the video, and the nearest TV is less than 20' from the welding location. There are usually about 8 computers in the house, all hooked to a home network, through a router and cable modem (Time Warner Road Runner System), and we have never had any welding related problems with  any of the computers. I don't have an electric garage door opener so I can't comment on that other than to suggest making certain that the track, chain, and case of the door opener is well grounded back to the electric service ground. Grounding jumpers between the mechanical parts may be necessary. You might also consider moving your welding a bit further away from your garage door opener.I'm convinced that a good electric service grounding system and a bonding jumper that joins this grounding system to those of the telephone and cable TV systems, is the key to solving electrical problems that are caused by lightning and welding. I hope this explanation helps someone solve their problems. It works for me.CharleyMiller MM252Miller Bobcat 225NTMiller DialArc HF / DIY Cooler2 Victor O/A TorchsetsMilwaukee 8" Metal SawMilwaukee Dry Cut "Chop" Saw 5 Ton Wallace Gantry Various Grinders, Benders, etc.
Reply:Charley, WOW!  I think you got your place pretty well fixed up.  Sometimes you just gotta do it yourself to get it done right. BTW, just one suggestion...I think you need at least ONE more ground somewhere...!!  'Jus pulling yer chain