20 Ton Shop Press Build and Questions

admin

I am starting a build on a shop press... one of my many projects on the go as I accumulate steel from work. Have a few questions to start off. I was planning on using 4" channel for the top and forming bed but now Im thinking that might be too small? Also, the pin that holds the forming bed up, is that mild steel or hardened steel? Im thinking mild steel. Here is a similar picture of what I am going to build. HEREHard to tell what they are using for material from a picture.I have C8 at work but I think that would be overkill and heavy?Last edited by oxygen454; 01-15-2011 at 03:56 AM.
Reply:Depending on what you plan to do with the press it may be (and usually is) cheaper and quicker to buy one. I'm near the tail end of a build myself, using mostly free scraps, but I still have a few good hours to go to finish it up. The only advantage my build has over a store bought unit is the width between the uprights. I plan to make a 36" brake for it so I wanted the extra width. The forum was great to me with lots of input for sizing, spacing, etc in my thread so you can find some answers there: http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=40953
Reply:I built  one a couple of years ago & used W4 x 13 for the top  & C4 x 5.4 for the bed. For the pins I cut up a 4 way lug wrench.
Reply:Click free for image of press.....You can get this 20 ton press from Harbor Freight for $199.00http://www.harborfreight.com/20-ton-...ess-32879.htmlLast edited by little Jeep; 01-15-2011 at 09:21 AM.Qualified & experienced at welding scrap metal
Reply:there is probably heavy 4" channel that is stronger than light 8" channel.. you have to consider the thickness more than the  height to get at the actual strength..in this case strength being resistance to bowing under the load..
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbead. you have to consider the thickness more than the  height to get at the actual strength..in this case strength being resistance to bowing under the load..
Reply:Thanks for all the info. The reason Im building it and not buying the press is because I already have a brand new shinny 20 ton bottle jack that I can use. Also all the steel is free from work. We are throwing tons of it out as we are really busy and have way to much crops. I was hoping that someone with the similar or exact same press in that pic had some measurements. I could run into town and measure theres if I can get away with it haha. I would agree that a larger channel is better but is it needed? Im forming up to 1/4 plate. Not sure the limits of the jack yet but Im sure I will find out. I will post a pic of my press in CAD in a bit...Also the channels will be plated and gusseted.
Reply:Originally Posted by little JeepClick free for image of press.....You can get this 20 ton press from Harbor Freight for $199.00http://www.harborfreight.com/20-ton-...ess-32879.html
Reply:This is done in AutoCAD (obviously)Mark, I like your press. We have a small 50 ton at work as well which is built friggin beefy! I say small because we have two full size 10' brake presses and a sheer as well.My channel on the sides is going to be formed 1/4 to make a 2 x 4 channel. The presses all seem to be made this way. The top channels will have 4  grade 8 bolts in them. Might go 3/4".The springs are from a trampoline. They seem pretty strong and should easily do the job.Last edited by oxygen454; 01-15-2011 at 03:26 PM.
Reply:A close up. (C4 channel and 1/4 formed channel will have a 1/4" web)
Reply:91 Runner, if you could get measurements, that would be awesome!Oh and forgot to add, the press is going to cost me the price of the bottle jack which was on sale for $34  ... and some paint I have laying around... already have lots of wire and gas for the welder.
Reply:You're gonna need more than 4" channel for a 20 ton press.  Mine is made out of 6" with a beefed up I beam on top and I have managed to deform it. Attached ImagesMy name's not Jim....
Reply:Good to know, I think C6 with a gusset plate (or 3) will hold up much better. The forming bed will have to be the same... only problem is, we have mostly C8 which would be hella heavy to move. I like your press boostI think I might weld the top section at work with .045 flux and at least 1/4 beads. Maybe 5/16.If anyone wants the cad file let me know. Also state what version your using.... mine is done in 2007.Last edited by oxygen454; 01-15-2011 at 04:07 PM.
Reply:I'd use the 8" and just call a buddy or two when you need to move it.  Leaves you a little head room for more power later on.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Originally Posted by oxygen454This is done in AutoCAD (obviously)The springs are from a trampoline. They seem pretty strong and should easily do the job.
Reply:[QUOTE=tbone550;460413]I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.  Both are components of the bowing strength (someone will come along with the correct phrase in awhile), but in this type of placement I'd rather see an 8" channel with even a very narrow web thickness than a 4" channel with heavy web thickness to carry the same load, especially if I could tie the two opposed channels together every now and then as in this case.I think the term is Section Modulus.  It's used to calculate the stress in bending.Another one is Young's Modulus or Modulus of Elasticity.  This is used to calculate bending deflection..I expect there's a formula to prove the point, but I would expect to see more "bowing strength" added in this particular placement by adding a pound of material to the web width as opposed to adding a pound of material to the web thickness.There is....google the two terms above and you'll get all the mind-numbing info you can stand.Miller 211 w/ spool gunMiller Dynasty 200DXLongevity 60i IGBT plasmaO/A w/ crappy chinese torch/gaugesSouth Bend 10K latheGrizzly 4029 10x54 millGrizzly 7x12 hor bandsawangle grnders, bench grnder, bench belt sndr7.5 hp 80gal cmprsor
Reply:just my .02 cent I would put the jack on the shelf and all that free steel .  make a steel rak2  ago years I was in the same boat.  over 40 hours to build.  I used 6x2 channel 1/4''  free. mild steel pins no good.  cold rolled works better . I would try to find something more stout. daye Attached Images
Reply:Nice press! What does the pulley do? Does it lift the forming bed up? It took you over 40 hours? wow. Good you took your time to make it nice and strong as well. So everyone is on the same page for 6" x 1/4 channel? Sounds good. What type of bolts are they? I was thinking 3/4 grade 8 bolts. Yours looks like structural A324 bolts? I like those flange washers you have there. That bottle valve wheel handle is a great idea, where did you find that?I was thinking about building a steel rack, waiting for them to clean out the tube, channel and angle.Last edited by oxygen454; 01-15-2011 at 10:12 PM.
Reply:tigmusky do you have any other pictures?
Reply:x2 on the pics, I want to see the whole thing up close, I really like that press!
Reply:Originally Posted by oxygen454Nice press! What does the pulley do? Does it lift the forming bed up? It took you over 40 hours? wow. Good you took your time to make it nice and strong as well. So everyone is on the same page for 6" x 1/4 channel? Sounds good. What type of bolts are they? I was thinking 3/4 grade 8 bolts. Yours looks like structural A324 bolts? I like those flange washers you have there. That bottle valve wheel handle is a great idea, where did you find that?I was thinking about building a steel rack, waiting for them to clean out the tube, channel and angle.
Reply:Washers are a piece of channel, what a great idea!
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbeadthere is probably heavy 4" channel that is stronger than light 8" channel.. you have to consider the thickness more than the  height to get at the actual strength..in this case strength being resistance to bowing under the load..
Reply:That is very true, this is also the reason why drilling on the top and bottom of the flange is frowned upon.
Reply:Maybe I can give a quick example of why taller is better. Let's say you have a 1" x 4"  bar of steel you want to use as a beam. Bending stiffness is EI where E is Modulus of elasticity and I is area moment of inertia. For a rectangular solid I equals 1/12 x width x height ^3. (^3 means cubed) It will have a bending stiffness the easy way of EI = 30,000psi x 1in^3 x 4in./12 That equals 10,000 lb-in^2. Bending the tall way the bending stifness is 30,000lb/in^2 x 4in^3 x 1in./12That equals 160,000  lb-in^Let's say you want to add two 1"square bars to increase the bending stiffness.  By the parallel axis theorem the contribution of an added bar is EI of the bar plus EA x y^2 where A is area and Y is the distance from the center or neutral axis of the added bar to the center of the final structure. Where should the bars be added?Bending stress is a little different calc. There you don't want to exceed the yield stress if the material.Lincoln SA200, HH135, Lencospot, HF80 Inverter, Rockwell 11x35 lathe, HF drill mill, Kama 554 tractor w/ FEL & BH, Belarus 250AS, lot's of Chinese toolsYa what he said haha I think I understood the first two sentences, possibly the third but the last few was over my head. Maybe if I read it a few more times it would make more sense. I like math but physics is new.Last edited by oxygen454; 01-16-2011 at 02:04 AM.
Reply:[QUOTE=tbone550;460413]I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.  Both are components of the bowing strength (someone will come along with the correct phrase in awhile), but in this type of placement I'd rather see an 8" channel with even a very narrow web thickness than a 4" channel with heavy web thickness to carry the same load, especially if I could tie the two opposed channels together every now and then as in this case.no argument from me.you'll note i said "probably" . the only point i really wanted to make was that the op was talking about 4" and 8" with no consideration for #/lf or webthickness. and i wanted  to introduce that .. brad blazer thanks for the lesson..
Reply:Tigmusky,That is one sweet press, nice job.LarryMiller XMT 304 CC/CVSyncrowave 180 SDLincoln PowerMig 255XTTermalDynamics 52Lincoln 305GComlpete machine shop to back it up
Reply:Originally Posted by oxygen45491 Runner, if you could get measurements, that would be awesome!Oh and forgot to add, the press is going to cost me the price of the bottle jack which was on sale for $34  ... and some paint I have laying around... already have lots of wire and gas for the welder.
Reply:Any measurements you can get would be great. Pin size, hole spacing etc like you say. PM me your emails and I will send the file. Its in designing stages but its pretty much done.
Reply:heres a few more picsDaye Attached Images
Reply:What are the sizes of the channels? Thanks for the pics by the way!
Reply:Originally Posted by oxygen454What are the sizes of the channels? Thanks for the pics by the way!
Reply:Thats okay. Thats considered C6x8.2 with a leg width of 2". Good to know, that what I plan on using. Thanks. Any pics of the whole press from the front? lol  (8.2 is the weight per foot in lbs)
Reply:on the part of the press that travels down. I don't know what its called. but anyway mine sucks. to sloppy.  I would made a better guide system.  the 3/8'' round stock didn't work so well.  also box in the channel on the table. I bent mine, something I need to do I wish I could draw on the pics.Daye Attached ImagesLast edited by tigmusky; 01-16-2011 at 09:55 PM.
Reply:Im going to use 1" x 25" plate on the table. Also am going to use a 2x3 tube where the press sits on like in your pic.
Reply:You might want to check this out:http://www.davepropst.com/Article/Art6/Article6.htmGreat pointers in the article even if it was built around a ram rather than a jack.
Reply:I have seen a lot of the presses have this style in common below the bottle jack.. Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by karlgabelYou might want to check this out:http://www.davepropst.com/Article/Art6/Article6.htmGreat pointers in the article even if it was built around a ram rather than a jack.
Reply:those springs dont have any issues pulling it all back together? and for the track design i was thinking about making 2   1//2" pieces of round stock similar to your setup just torwards the front and back do you think that would solve the issue? and you can draw on your pics save them then open it in paint and paint away
Reply:Originally Posted by oxygen454Any measurements you can get would be great. Pin size, hole spacing etc like you say. PM me your emails and I will send the file. Its in designing stages but its pretty much done.
Reply:Thanks! Your awesome Ryan and Larry! Not sure which one you guys are haha. Im guessing your Ryan. Im surprised how small the upright channels are. Only 4x 1 3/4, I thought it would have been at least 4x2 like my design. Now I have to get a couple of good 1" rods to go under the table in the holes.
Reply:The two springs from a friends trampoline should work well. The bottle jack ram can be pressed in by hand. The springs, I can barely stretch out.
Reply:No it's Larry....It's just a copy and paste from my friend Ryans PM on 4x4 site....As for the pins - try checking a tractor supply for their hitch pins... They come in sizes rangng from 0.5" x 3.5" up 1.125" x 6.25, and they have a 1"x7.5" of a different brand..Hope this helps....LarryLast edited by 91Runner; 01-20-2011 at 04:22 AM.
Reply:extend one of the sides, cantilevered into space.  you can then work things that wont fit between the uprights or long stuff like axles/flanges that are a pain to drop down through the center.-or you can mount your shear there!   it's very versatile.make it such that you can reposition the ram wherever.  between the bridge, cantilevered etc..    or at least make it possible to have a second ram on the outside.for the pins.  farm supply shop.put close fit hole in one side of your bridge.  slot the other.  this makes getting the pins in easy.  or, you can lift the bridge one pin at a time and not have to lift the entire thing if you dont want to go the boat winch route.Last edited by dsergison; 01-20-2011 at 03:02 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by 91RunnerNo it's Larry....It's just a copy and paste from my friend Ryans PM on 4x4 site....As for the pins - try checking a tractor supply for their hitch pins... They come in sizes rangng from 0.5" x 3.5" up 1.125" x 6.25, and they have a 1"x7.5" of a different brand..Hope this helps....Larry
Reply:Would this work? It is from the local Princess Auto but it is only rated Grade 5?This reminded me, we have hardened Nelson Studs at work.Grade 5 steel1/8" presto pinSolid, welded, plastic dipped handle1" x 7 1/2 Attached ImagesLast edited by oxygen454; 01-20-2011 at 11:26 PM.
Reply:that red handled pin would be great.any grade 5 pin is a lot better than the grade nothing structural steel your going to get. and, when building presses it is better to bend than shatter.
Reply:plain grade 2 bolts 1" diameter with 4 shear surfaces as shown above will support about 100 ton. i think that gives you enough safety margin for the 20 ton jack.
Reply:Great to know, thanks for your help dsergison an boatuoy. I will pick a couple up. The 7 1/2" one pictured above should be good in length.