Custom Built Trailer Question...

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Hello Everybody! Heres the scoop... I've been requested to submit a bid on a self contained grease trap pumping trailer for a local septic and plumbing company. I've done lots of fabrication for them in the past and I'm sure I'll get this job as well. What this will be is a self contained trailer that will be hauling a 400 gallon poly tank (round), a portable grease pumper (buggy), an aluminum storage/tool box, and an 8000 watt generator. I already have the dimensions and rough draft of the trailer framing worked out. Here is my question... I was going to build this a single axle with a 6000 lb. rated axle w/ 6 lug 16" wheels and electric brake. With the tank full and all equipment, the GVW of this unit will be around 4000 lbs. However, the owner thinks it would be better off with a tandem axle (2 3500 lb axles) due to it hauling liquid and reducing road sway. I've built many trailers but not designed specifically for hauling a liquid containing tank.My thinking was as long as the tanks weight is dispersed evenly over the axle, road walk shouldn't be an issue. The owner will take my final opinion. I am not against making it a tandem by any means. I'm just wondering what the best route would be before I place my parts order. Any help would be appreciated.I am including a picture of the trailer my design will be off of, exception being the tank will be plastic instead of steel (customer request) and a "crows foot" tonque instead of the single that's pictured. The other pic is of the similar tank that will be going on it, exception being the pic is of a 1000 gallon and the one being installed is only 400. Attached ImagesMiller XMT-3502 Lincoln Power Mig 140C (One w/ dedicated spoolgun)Jackson NexGen / Miller Digital EliteMiller S32P SuperWeldcraft 17fv & 9fv Tig TorchVictor & Purox O/ALincoln Ranger 9Fairly Cold Beer!!
Reply:I'll keep pics posted as it's being being built, if I get the bid...Miller XMT-3502 Lincoln Power Mig 140C (One w/ dedicated spoolgun)Jackson NexGen / Miller Digital EliteMiller S32P SuperWeldcraft 17fv & 9fv Tig TorchVictor & Purox O/ALincoln Ranger 9Fairly Cold Beer!!
Reply:Good luck with the bid.  JMO....but if the customer would feel more secure with tandems and is willing to incure the extra expense then by all means build him a tandem trailer.StephenMillermatic 251Miller Syncrowave 200Miller 30A SpoolgunHypertherm Powermax 30Etc., etc., etc.............Cancer Sucks!
Reply:Tandem would be a good idea. Im guessing the tank does not have baffles in it?
Reply:I would go with tandem axle. With the weight of the trailer, generator, tool box, grease pumper buggy, not sure what they would weigh, but 400 gallons of water,( 3332 lbs)  I think you will be getting closer to 6000 lbs.Good luck with the project and post pics.
Reply:I would agree, not to account for any bumps along the road the trailer might have to take on. Dont want to bust and axle. Imagine the clean-up bill.Although, reading your post, you say the tank is going to be smaller and if that trailer thats already in use works well and takes more weight, then a single should work. I still like tandem tho hahaLast edited by oxygen454; 12-27-2010 at 07:44 PM.
Reply:I think its too much , no safety percentage in the single axle setupI would go for 45 mm sq solid axles rated 1.4 tonne each  with  cruiser hubs and  a  3 tonner rocker roller  spring setup  with overide brakes to  keep down costHere is one setup I made of late to  carry my long lengths plate looks nice your trailer tho, good luck Attached Images
Reply:Tandem will be more stable.  If you go with springs and balance bars, it will prolly ride better too.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Customer is not too concerned with the cost. I just called to let him know I'll be building it tandem. I want to personally thank everyone for their input.JeremyMiller XMT-3502 Lincoln Power Mig 140C (One w/ dedicated spoolgun)Jackson NexGen / Miller Digital EliteMiller S32P SuperWeldcraft 17fv & 9fv Tig TorchVictor & Purox O/ALincoln Ranger 9Fairly Cold Beer!!
Reply:Originally Posted by BoostinjdmTandem will be more stable.  If you go with springs and balance bars, it will prolly ride better too.
Reply:Originally Posted by oxygen454Tandem would be a good idea. Im guessing the tank does not have baffles in it?
Reply:Originally Posted by goinssrGood luck with the bid.  JMO....but if the customer would feel more secure with tandems and is willing to incure the extra expense then by all means build him a tandem trailer.
Reply:i would very highly reccomend figuring out how to install bafflesin that tank. one possibility would be making heavy expanded steel cylinders that are small enough to drop in the opening in the top. i have hauled some small liquid bearing trailers and from 25- 50 % full they can be fun. especially on ice.Dynasty 200DXPassport plus w/ spoolmate 100victor 315c oxy/(act and prop)Miller digital elitemilwaukee power tools
Reply:The biggest problem you will encounter is not the argument of single axle over tandems, it's that no matter what configuration you come up with you are making a very unsafe and dangerous situation for everyone who encounters that trailer on the road.The problem no matter how you build this trailer, is not going to be the trailer but rather fluid motion in the tank. Using one of those poly tanks is a very bad idea in my opinion. When that tank is half full or better you will encounter an awful lot of force from the liquid sloshing around in that tank which in turn is going to effect how the trailer handles going down the road, especially in an emergency or evasive situation. It will be a handful under normal driving conditions with an experienced driver.You should try and talk some sense into your client and strongly suggest that he use a tank with baffles in it to help stop some of the fluid motion going down the road. It's the only safe way to build this type of trailer.Oh, and just so you are aware of it. If something were to happen, even if you tell the client of possible dangers, and you still build it to the clients specs, you are just as liable if not more so than the client for damages should someone get hurt or worse.I have been trying to stay out of the threads involving trailers lately as I have built nearly a thousand to date but yet many here (and other forums) have built one or two and suddenly they know more than a guy that made his living doing it. I am only commenting on trailer threads that are outright dangerous in nature, this is one of them.I am what I am, Deal with it!If necessity is the Mother of Invention, I must be the Father of Desperation!
Reply:Originally Posted by JLE-ENT.Customer is not too concerned with the cost. I just called to let him know I'll be building it tandem. I want to personally thank everyone for their input.Jeremy
Reply:i pretty much hate single axle trailers, the tandems track and ride so much better than a single ever could.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:The local farming community uses 500-750 gallon poly tanks similar to the one pictured above.  If it's trailer mounted, the trailers have tandems to reduce sway & enhance control.  ALL these trailers/tanks hit highway speeds up to 50 mph loaded, partially loaded & empty.  Like Danbar pointed out, slosh will be the biggest issue with this, even if it's only 400 gallon.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:If you are doing Tandem, (or even single axle) are there going to be trailer brakes? This will help with some of the control when the weight adds up or swinging back and forth. Also, I have been building trailers professionally for a few years now and one of the things I have learned  is, always be accurate on where your center of load is on your trailer. Too heavy forward and the towing vehicle can suffer, not enough on the tongue and you will have the reach on the trailer trying to lift the back end of the tow vehicle up. A coworker of mine once installed a generator on a small trailer, the customer had the wheels of his dually truck lift off the ground when hitting any bumps in the road lol. The trailer was designed as the engineer intended. We ended up moving the generator forward more to put more weight on the reach/tongue.  Your load would be somewhat interesting as it will be variable depending on how much liquid is in the tanks. As for the baffles, I may have stirred something up but is a valid point. If the tank throws the trailer side to side, something will have to be inserted or revamped. In the end, when planned and designed right, the trailer will do just fine. .Last edited by oxygen454; 12-28-2010 at 05:22 AM.
Reply:In-case anyone was wondering, Baffles can be made in many ways. Full plate in the center section of the container with large holes (4")Half plates And perforated sheets of stainless316 is the best especially for food but for oils etc, regular stainless would work. Even possibly normal carbon steel. Last edited by oxygen454; 12-28-2010 at 05:36 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by dabar39I have been trying to stay out of the threads involving trailers lately as I have built nearly a thousand to date but yet many here (and other forums) have built one or two and suddenly they know more than a guy that made his living doing it. I am only commenting on trailer threads that are outright dangerous in nature, this is one of them.
Reply:Originally Posted by oxygen454If you are doing Tandem, (or even single axle) are there going to be trailer brakes? This will help with some of the control when the weight adds up or swinging back and forth. Also, I have been building trailers professionally for a few years now and one of the things I have learned  is, always be accurate on where your center of load is on your trailer. Too heavy forward and the towing vehicle can suffer, not enough on the tongue and you will have the reach on the trailer trying to lift the back end of the tow vehicle up. A coworker of mine once installed a generator on a small trailer, the customer had the wheels of his dually truck lift off the ground when hitting any bumps in the road lol. The trailer was designed as the engineer intended. We ended up moving the generator forward more to put more weight on the reach/tongue.  Your load would be somewhat interesting as it will be variable depending on how much liquid is in the tanks. As for the baffles, I may have stirred something up but is a valid point. If the tank throws the trailer side to side, something will have to be inserted or revamped. In the end, when planned and designed right, the trailer will do just fine. .
Reply:I quoted wrong... I mentioned I'd post a pic of my first trailer. It's my second. The first one I built was a 5' x 10', and this one is a 5' x 14' I still use on a weekly basis. Pardon the c-channel and angle I have failed to unload...  Jeremy Attached ImagesMiller XMT-3502 Lincoln Power Mig 140C (One w/ dedicated spoolgun)Jackson NexGen / Miller Digital EliteMiller S32P SuperWeldcraft 17fv & 9fv Tig TorchVictor & Purox O/ALincoln Ranger 9Fairly Cold Beer!!
Reply:Originally Posted by JLE-ENT.I don't and never have considered myself a professional trailer fabricator. I posted this thread because I was uncomfortable in my clients initial request to built it single axle. I've been concerned with liquid slosh from the start. I've built trailers, including tandem that'll be almost identical to the one required for this job. I also get a signed waiver from all my customers that the weight limits and capabilities of the trailer they have requested from me have been explained to them fully and they take responsibility for misuse. No guarantee by any means but a little something to cover my a**!dabar39, I appreciate your post. I don't take lightly anything I build that could jeopordize the safety of anyone or anything. I've built around 25 trailers so far, starting with myself. My first one was a 5' x 14' utility trailer to haul both my quads on. I'll post a pic of it a little later this morning when I get outside. I am open to all suggestions, positive or negative comments. It's other professionals on this forum that can help all of us built a better product, or stay away from it altogether. Going to call my client in a few minutes and discuss going with a baffled tank. I'll keep you all updated...Jeremy
Reply:Single wheels suck if you blow a tire or just have a flat.  With tandems you don't even need to carry a jack.6 Miller Big Blue 600 Air Paks2 Miller 400D6 Lincoln LN-25's4 Miller Xtreme 12VS2 Miller Dimension 812 4 Climax BW-3000Z bore welders Hypertherm 65 and 85Bug-O Track BugPair of Welpers
Reply:dabar39, thank you for your information and knowledge on this subject. I got things ironed out with the client 30 minutes ago. He is still deadset on using a poly tank, but it will now be baffled (or I told them I couldn't in good conscience build it). It will probably now be a rectangular poly tank which means I'm going to have to go a little longer on the trailer build (though I allowed some leeway in the bid). Not going to take unnecessary chances.Miller XMT-3502 Lincoln Power Mig 140C (One w/ dedicated spoolgun)Jackson NexGen / Miller Digital EliteMiller S32P SuperWeldcraft 17fv & 9fv Tig TorchVictor & Purox O/ALincoln Ranger 9Fairly Cold Beer!!http://www.varitech-industries.com/p...cID=7&ProdID=3
Reply:Originally Posted by JLE-ENT.dabar39, thank you for your information and knowledge on this subject. I got things ironed out with the client 30 minutes ago. He is still deadset on using a poly tank, but it will now be baffled (or I told them I couldn't in good conscience build it). It will probably now be a rectangular poly tank which means I'm going to have to go a little longer on the trailer build (though I allowed some leeway in the bid). Not going to take unnecessary chances.
Reply:Something similar to this. Maybe with more holes if you need the flow to go faster when filling or emptying. Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by oxygen454Awesome good call on baffles and sounds like you got the bid! Take pics, totally interested.Do you have a plan on what type of baffle and how your going to mount them inside the tank?
Reply:Keep us posted with some pics I love trailer build threads esp when it is some thing custom.Vantage 300 kubota ,miller 304 xmt ,lincoln ln 25 pro , ranger 305 G, plenty of other tools of the trade to make the sparks fly.
Reply:Originally Posted by GmmandanKeep us posted with some pics I love trailer build threads esp when it is some thing custom.
Reply:Originally Posted by JLE-ENT.Actually, the new style tank that'll be going on the trailer has a baffle preinstalled. Rather than try to modify the poly tank that was going to be installed, I convinced the client to look into getting a tank with baffles. That is taken care of. I'm going to find a pic of the tank that will be used and post it. The tank was ordered this evening, and I'll get started on the trailer frame work once it arrives. I'm guessing around next week. The main thing that puzzles me is the clients stand-firm on using a plastic tank. I keep getting told it needs to be easily removable. Why, I don't have any idea. But we build, if it can be built safely, what the customer wants, right?
Reply:Very true although one would think the customer would empty the tank first. The ability to easily remove the tank may be to clean it out or replace.
Reply:Originally Posted by oxygen454Very true although one would think the customer would empty the tank first. The ability to easily remove the tank may be to clean it out or replace.
Reply:I would think the tank would have to be a metal one so it could be heated, no? Grease I'm familiar with is a solid at normal temperatures and would have to be heated to let it flow. I don't see it being heated in one of those poly tanks. You may suggest to your customer that you build or buy a metal tank, if I'm missing something then disregard. I don't see much use in having baffles in a tank of grease for the same reason, unless the grease is liquefied or it is to also be used to transport waste vegetable oil.
Reply:Just an update on the trailer build. I got the bid, now just waiting on the deposit check and the go-ahead to start on the build. Looks like it'll start at the first of the year. Thank you to everyone for all the input and advice.Miller XMT-3502 Lincoln Power Mig 140C (One w/ dedicated spoolgun)Jackson NexGen / Miller Digital EliteMiller S32P SuperWeldcraft 17fv & 9fv Tig TorchVictor & Purox O/ALincoln Ranger 9Fairly Cold Beer!!
Reply:Originally Posted by Bryan27I would think the tank would have to be a metal one so it could be heated, no? Grease I'm familiar with is a solid at normal temperatures and would have to be heated to let it flow. I don't see it being heated in one of those poly tanks. You may suggest to your customer that you build or buy a metal tank, if I'm missing something then disregard. I don't see much use in having baffles in a tank of grease for the same reason, unless the grease is liquefied or it is to also be used to transport waste vegetable oil.
Reply:Originally Posted by JLE-ENT.Actually, it's considered grease but it's not in solid form. What it is comes from grease traps/tanks that are the discharged waste from restaurants, bakerys, hospitals, nursing homes, etc. It's the wastewater that comes from kitchen drains. The grease trap catches the food waste, oils or such that's from the cooking of food and so forth. It keeps this waste from entering the sewer system or a septic tank. So it's pretty much liquid form, just a good bit thicker than water.
Reply:Just an update for the followers of this thread... I received the deposit and the steel is ordered. I'll be going by the clients establishment tomorrow to load the tank and grease buggy so I can take them to the shop and figure out exactly how wide to make this thing. I know how we all like pics so I'll start by getting 'em tomorrow. Get everyone a little better idea of what I'll be working with.Miller XMT-3502 Lincoln Power Mig 140C (One w/ dedicated spoolgun)Jackson NexGen / Miller Digital EliteMiller S32P SuperWeldcraft 17fv & 9fv Tig TorchVictor & Purox O/ALincoln Ranger 9Fairly Cold Beer!!
Reply:Ive hauled tankers of fuel and water and I agree with the force when you hit the brakes. I dont know where you would find a tank that small with a baffel in it. Id go with a tandem set up.But lets look further, what pulling the trailer? They going to pull it with a pumper truck or their pick up? You kinda got to look at that too. If the truck is at its limit, and most contractors put everything but the kitchen sin in their trucks, and a single axle, Id say youll get road sway, as mentioned. I see lots of pumper trucks around here pulling those little back hoes mounted to a trailer. Look like a swing going down the road side to side. Just my .02 for what its worth.
Reply:I got the tank picked up this morning. It has an opening big enough to install Varitech Ind. baffle balls (ironically the same thing that tapwelder posted). It's also a different design and 300 gallon instead of 400. I like this tank a lot better than the one that was originally planned.I'll keep up the pics and details of the build as it progresses. I unloaded the tank a few minutes ago and decided it's time for lunch (a little late).I've included a couple pics of the tank. I tried to get a shot of it before it was loaded into the truck but these guys were fast!  Attached ImagesMiller XMT-3502 Lincoln Power Mig 140C (One w/ dedicated spoolgun)Jackson NexGen / Miller Digital EliteMiller S32P SuperWeldcraft 17fv & 9fv Tig TorchVictor & Purox O/ALincoln Ranger 9Fairly Cold Beer!!
Reply:Originally Posted by Vince_o Id go with a tandem set up.But lets look further, what pulling the trailer?
Reply:Here are a few pics from tonights build..The first couple are of the trailer tongue in the making. Bulldog Collar-lock HD coupler with 4" channel.Next one is the welded frame. Center supports are loose and not in place. Trailer frame is also being built with 4" channel.Springs in the next pic and then the welded axle tube. These axles were 8' in length. They were cut down to 70" to allow room for tire to frame clearance (5' wide trailer). The tubes were cut, beveled, sleeved inside and welded with two passes, root and cap.Next the suspension was attached, axles set under frame and tires on to more easily roll the axles where they needed to be.Axles set in place, tires removed, spring hangers welded on then tightened the suspension up. Been a long day so I called it quits for tonight. more to come... Attached ImagesMiller XMT-3502 Lincoln Power Mig 140C (One w/ dedicated spoolgun)Jackson NexGen / Miller Digital EliteMiller S32P SuperWeldcraft 17fv & 9fv Tig TorchVictor & Purox O/ALincoln Ranger 9Fairly Cold Beer!!
Reply:Ran out of room on the pics. Also need to change my photo settings to eliminate the smaller pics! All welding so far has been done with the Miller S32P feeder running .030 ER70S-6 wire. Attached ImagesMiller XMT-3502 Lincoln Power Mig 140C (One w/ dedicated spoolgun)Jackson NexGen / Miller Digital EliteMiller S32P SuperWeldcraft 17fv & 9fv Tig TorchVictor & Purox O/ALincoln Ranger 9Fairly Cold Beer!!
Reply:Looks good! Are you notching out the cross member channels so they fit flush with the perimeter channel? Or recessed down? Whats the deck going to be? Wood or steel?I am getting ready to build my trainer. Major downfall with mine is the axle is really short. Barely 4' across. Im wondering if it is possibly to cut and extend the axle?
Reply:Looks like you are using new running gear.  So why did you cut down the axles rather than ordering the right ones?My name's not Jim....
Reply:Originally Posted by oxygen454Looks good! Are you notching out the cross member channels so they fit flush with the perimeter channel? Or recessed down? Whats the deck going to be? Wood or steel?
Reply:Originally Posted by BoostinjdmLooks like you are using new running gear.  So why did you cut down the axles rather than ordering the right ones?
Reply:Looks like a great project.  My question is don't both axles need to have brakes where you are?"The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:Wow this is cool! Im new to the welding and Im enjoying following this thread! Maybe after I burn a few truck loads of rods and cut steel for years I caould do something like that. Question, are you using the 60/40 rule or did you place the axles for the weight? The reason I ask is Ive read so much on setting the axles on the trailers and a few Ive read that people have placed the axles for whats going on the trailer. I tend to make the load fit the trailer. I see so many people load trailes all screwed up. I call them home owners, people that watch home and garden tv and think they can rebuild their kitchen or put in a stone walk way in a weekend. Then agian I just weld on the weekend so you all probly have a name for me too!