whoever said mig was easier than stick?

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I have welded for nearly fifty years with stick. I have a mig welder in my shop but have never used it.  So now I have tried it mostly because of what I have read on here lately.   I have a project with one inch square tubing and thought maybe it would be easier with the mig.The nozzle is always in my way and I can't see my puddle very well.  I tried pushing, pulling the torch.  Getting the machine set has been a challenge.  I still think I don't have it set correctly.   I feel the wire is hitting the material burning off and so on.  It sounds like a machine gun. Not a smooth hum.  I have tried to slow down the wire feed. I thought maybe for the voltage the wire was feeding to fast.  So then I welded the wire to the tip.....New tip.The welder is 380volts. I am using .8mm wire with straight argon set to the equivalent to 15 cfh.  I tried up and down with the pressure regulator. So after a couple of hours trying to get this thing to work for me I grabbed my stick and welded it with that.  It was like heaven. I could see my puddle and make the puddle do what I wanted. It was a thing of beauty.  Did I mention I love my stick welder!Any suggestions?  I was welding 1/4 inch plate just trying to run some beads.
Reply:I would think that with 50 years experience you’ve made some contacts that have some skill with mig. I’m certain that someone would show you how to set-up and handle the gun. Here is some help……………….NOT!http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/...t-to-weld.html
Reply:If you're welding mild steel, 100% argon is the wrong shielding gas to be using.   The most commonly recommended shielding gases for mild steel, in short circuit transfer mode, are an argon/CO² mix like 75/25 or 100% CO², my preference being the 75/25.ESAB Migmaster 250 Hobart Ironman 230Multimatic 215TWECO Fabricator 181i & 211iHH125EZ - nice little fluxcore only unitMaxstar 150 STH - very nice
Reply:Originally Posted by DanIf you're welding mild steel, 100% argon is the wrong shielding gas to be using.   The most commonly recommended shielding gases for mild steel, in short circuit transfer mode, are an argon/CO² mix like 75/25 or 100% CO², my preference being the 75/25.
Reply:I live in Germany and the unit is a Electra Beckum 200/35 et turbo.I will get a bottle of 75/25 tomorrow.  And take the welder with me and have them check it out.Of course I can ask someone to help me locally.
Reply:http://www.praxair.com/praxair.nsf/0/c56dbfa8e80d0dbd85256ab300140b28/$FILE/P-8126.pdfhttp://www.millerwelds.com/resources...ur-skills/mig/http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...elding-basics/Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:this is why everybody says mig is easier although this isn't really mig but simply a flux core wire welder but using a MIG machine, which means a MIG gun.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=36307the one thing I did not read in this thread is that you varied the voltage in an attempt to use your MIG. If the voltage is way too high, it is going to be nearly impossible to get the machine to run without the burn back you seem to be experiencing.as to not being able to see the weld: can you move the nozzle back to expose the tip. You may simply have the nozzle too far out and are actually covering the welding area. This would also be another reason you get the stutters; you have too much wire exposed and rather than starting and continuing an arc, it is simply burning off at the tip and needs to run back out before it can initiate an arc again. never tried MIG with pure Argon so I cannot attest to what that will cause. 100% CO2 or 75/25. Either worked fine once you learned them.
Reply:The nozzle is seated as far as it can be seated.  It is possible that it has the wrong tip.  The tip is not flush with the nozzle. It is recessed a little.  Also the wire might not be100%.  So tomorrow I will take the whole unit in and have them go through it. It has sat for many years and I am not sure how long before that it was used.  I bought it from a friend many years ago. Not even sure why I bought it.
Reply:Originally Posted by burnandreturnThe nozzle is seated as far as it can be seated.  It is possible that it has the wrong tip.  The tip is not flush with the nozzle. It is recessed a little.  Also the wire might not be100%.  So tomorrow I will take the whole unit in and have them go through it. It has sat for many years and I am not sure how long before that it was used.  I bought it from a friend many years ago. Not even sure why I bought it.
Reply:Originally Posted by mello*vipAnother thing to check is to make sure the machine is setup with proper polarity for the wire you're running. IIRC solid non-flux wire requires DCEN/straight whereas flux core is DCEP.
Reply:Since you're so used to stick, you may want to swap to fluxcore wire to practice with.   You'll have the familiar slag, smoke and spatter you're used to and can drag the torch backwards like dragging a stick.  You can also remove the gas nozzle and get a good look at the puddle, like stick.  MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:I thought I would pick up a roll of fluxcore tomorrow.  For welding 1/4 to 3/8 what size wire should I buy?
Reply:Originally Posted by desertrider33since you're so used to stick, you may want to swap to fluxcore wire to practice with.   You'll have the familiar slag, smoke and spatter you're used to and can drag the torch backwards like dragging a stick.  You can also remove the gas nozzle and get a good look at the puddle, like stick.
Reply:i had my light bulb moment with setting up mig when i learnt about the voltage range spray globular short arc so if your welding like 2mm sheet short arc works from about 15-20 so because the steel thin i would puttin it on 15v and set wire speed till i hear a crisp sound and see it welding good and so on and so forth just set a base voltage and just play around with wire speed till it sounds and looks right
Reply:GMAW - an arc, a puddle, minimal smoke and spatter (usually).FCAW - an arc, a puddle, slag and smoke and more spatter (usually).For 1/4 inch thick steel, you are probably looking at 0.035 or 0.045 FCAW wire at about 180 amps or so.  For 3/8 inch thick steel, you are looking at the same wire sizes but at a much higher amperage of 330 - 375 amps or so.  (that is for single pass full penetration welds)http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...calculator.phpRemember the rule of thumb is 1 amp per 0.0001 inch thick of material.http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...ur-skills/mig/As mentioned, pure argon is not the right gas to use for GMAW on steel.  Pure argon -IS- the right gas for MAW on aluminum though (or an argon-helium blend).GMAW short-circuit transfer on plain mild steel typically uses either 100% CO2 or an argon-CO2 blend like C25 (25% CO2 and 75% argon).Regarding the gun nozzle being in the way, as said you either get used to it and compensate or you look at the puddle from a slight off-axis viewpoint.  Note: regarding removing the nozzle when using FCAW wire, yes you can.  Just be aware/carefull of crudding up the gas diffuser ports and nozzle attachment threads (if the nozzle is a screw-on one) from the FCAW spatter and slag.  My Lincoln machines have an FCAW nozzle made that hugs tight to the contact tip to help keep crud off the gun nozle threads and off the gas diffuser ports when you are using flux-core wire.  The OD of the nozzle is also much smaller than the OD of a MIG nozzle, so that helps with the viewing angle/obstruction issue a bit.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by burnandreturni thought i would pick up a roll of fluxcore tomorrow.  For welding 1/4 to 3/8 what size wire should i buy?
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33.045 NR211 (E71T-11), it's an easy wire to run and makes nice beads.
Reply:One of the first shops I ever worked in had a 250amp Acklands-Grainer mig sitting in the corner collecting dust, when ever I asked anyone about it they simply stated that it was a peice of junk, but not in those words, same problem as you.I swapped out their bottle of argon for mixed gas, don't remember what the third gas was at the time. Anyhow take your argon back and get some 75/25, And you should be good to go, or if you really like oldschool get some CO2.Your wire should be fine if it is copper coated.And your gas volume is ok.Your not going to get the penetration your used to and your metal has to be very clean.
Reply:Originally Posted by DanI definitely agree with .045, however Lincoln recommends a max plate thickness of 5/16" for .045 NR211.045 Hobart Fabshield 21B that I've ran perfromed well on 1/4" - 3/8". Hobart has this wire rated up to 3/4" plate. Of course I have no idea if it is available in Germany.
Reply:I thought .035 NR211 was good to 5/16 and .045 good to 3/8 ??  I know .045 NR212 is good to 3/4.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:I took my welder to the doctor today.  He tested it and a switch inside was defective. So not all the power was getting to the wire.  I feel a little bit better that it wasn't completely my fault.They will order the switch and I will have it back on Monday.  I tried the fluxcore but it didn't work either. But with the defective switch it also couldn't function correctly.
Reply:burnandreturn,Glad to hear that the problem is (mostly) figured out and will soon be fixed.  Follow up and let us know how it all works after the switch is replaced.DesertRider33,Lincoln Innershield NR211MP is rated by Lincoln as follows:Wire diameters of 0.045 and smaller are restricted to 5/16 inch plate thickness MAX.Wire diameters greater than 0.045 are restricted to 1/2 inch plate thickness MAX.Also note that NR211MP wire is NOT CVN rated.Lincoln NR212 "is designed to be used on plate up to 3/4” (19.1mm) thick."   http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...ure/c32400.pdfPage 14 for the quote and thickness liimits, as well as the individual product info pages in http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...ure/c32000.pdf  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Thanks, MoonRise.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Everyone is singing the praises of high CO2 blends for shielding gas. My experiance is just the opposite. Place I work now uses Emixal bulk gas from Airliquide, its a 98 argon 2 oxygen blend. Previous employer used 95 AR 5 OX blend. When I have had to use a CO2 it was a 90AR 10CO2 blend and I didn't care for it. Compared to the 98AR2OX the 10CO2 seemed cold and made more spatter. The wire we are using is a .045 diameter ER70S-3 or -6 made by Kiswel in S. Korea. Plus we like to spray arc and CO2 not like to spray.Ranger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe
Reply:I use 98/2 Ar/O2 with my 350P alot, in pulsed spray, true spray and once in a while short circuit.  It works fine for all 3 processes, but is best suited to true spray.  I haven't tried 90/10 or 95/5 Ar/CO2 yet.  I do have 75/25 and 85/15 Ar/CO2 and they both work fine for short circuit.  I prefer the 85/15 with my MM175 since the 175 has a stiff arc and the lower CO2 content seems to soften it up a bit.  My HTP runs great with 75/25.  The HTP seems to have more inductance and has a much softer arc than the MM175.  My Passport runs beautifully on straight CO2, better than with mix gas, in my opinion.  I have heard Miller designed the Passport specificaly to run on straight CO2.  Seems like there's some truth to it to me.  Mostly I use it with self shield fluxcore though, since the Passport is my truck mig and most of the time I use it outdoors.  My XMT has an inductance control on it with a wide range of adjustment, so I can make the arc any way I want it to be, from super soupy to stiff as nails.   I like it a little on the soft side.  350P has the same control feature too.Last edited by DesertRider33; 12-12-2009 at 03:59 PM.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith opNow this is from my Miller Mig manual, being that CO2 has spatter, Miller suggests adding a few turns of inductance to the power supply by changing inductor taps if possible. With fixed inductance, another way to add inductance is to take the ground cable and warp it around a chunk of iron. Miller shows pictures before and after of the weld bead. The penetration is a little less and a bit wider, the bead is very smooth with no sign of spatter.
Reply:Finally got my welder back and running fine.  I bought a bottle of 86%argon 14% CO2. That is all they had.  The weldor is only rated for 200 amps.  One problem was I had too thick wire in it.  I had 1.0mm  and bought a roll of 0.8 mm and all is well.  NOW I see why they say MIG is easier than stick.  Once I learned how to look at the puddle from off to the side things went well.  I hope to play with it a little over the next few days and then I will post a picture.  Thanks for the help.
Reply:Glad to hear things are working now.  The C14 gas -may- let you run in spray transfer mode if your machine has enough voltage at the higher amperage to 'get there'.  If not, C14 will still work OK for short-circuit transfer mode too.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:I bought a roll of fluxcore but I can't use it.  I can not reverse the polarity on this machine.
Reply:I use the 86/14 mix as well, that's all that Airgas seems to carry. Glad you got your machine working better, MIG is enjoyable and fast way to weld stuff up!"hope for the best, prepare for the worst"Some of my equipment:Miller Millermatic 140Miller Syncrowave 200Lincoln PowerMIG 215
Reply:Now I am back to hating MIG!   My flat/horizonals look great.  Vertical up is a bear.  I can't seem to find the sweet spot on 1/4 inch vertical up.  I get too much globbing.  If I turn down the voltage in order to slow down a bit I get no penetration. If I speed up I get not enough penetration.  I tried vertical down and it was better but it seems really strange to do vertical down.   It seems my travel speed has to be quite fast but then I feel lost with my puddle.  I just don't get that warm fuzzy feeling of control of my puddle.
Reply:I love my 7018/ 6010 electrode welding.  The puddle just works and flows and goes were I tell it to go.  Very obedient my puddle is!
Reply:Stick vertical up is often using the resolidified slag to help support the puddle like a shelf.MIG doesn't have a slag shelf.  Hmmm, vert up MIG try a small weave instead of a straight-line stringer.You -are- in short-circuit mode when you try your verticals and not somehow in spray transfer, right?What wire diameter?  0.030 (0.8 mm), right?  With 0.030 solid wire, a WFS at about 300 ipm and a voltage of about 20volts should be about 130 amps.  If you are running more voltage or a higher WFS than that, you could be into globular transfer or your 200-class machine and the C14 gas -may- be nudging into spray transfer.Lincoln's reference doc C42000 indicates 0.035 (0.9mm) wire at 225 ipm WFS and 18V using C25 for about 160 amps for doing vertical up fillet weld on 5/16 inch steel at a travel speed of 5-6 ipm. With a small weave.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:I always prefer stick to mig.  At home I only have a stick/ tig machine.  The same when I am working in a boiler house.  Although there have been some instances when trying to fill big gaps in duct work where we have used the "squirt gun".  Or "shoot case shooter".  Puts down alot of metal but not real functional and diverse as the stick in the field.  I remember it three of us a half hour to get the correct settings!  LOLall I want in my life are....... white castle cheese burgers
Reply:The nozzle does seem to get in the way sometimes. I love it for it speed and cleanliness.I am learning to fit tubing together, and the  MIG does great for filling some of my gaps.
Reply:Originally Posted by burnandreturnNow I am back to hating MIG!   My flat/horizonals look great.  Vertical up is a bear.  I can't seem to find the sweet spot on 1/4 inch vertical up.  I get too much globbing.  If I turn down the voltage in order to slow down a bit I get no penetration. If I speed up I get not enough penetration.  I tried vertical down and it was better but it seems really strange to do vertical down.   It seems my travel speed has to be quite fast but then I feel lost with my puddle.  I just don't get that warm fuzzy feeling of control of my puddle.
Reply:Originally Posted by 4421frankI always prefer stick to mig.  At home I only have a stick/ tig machine.  The same when I am working in a boiler house.  Although there have been some instances when trying to fill big gaps in duct work where we have used the "squirt gun".  Or "shoot case shooter".  Puts down alot of metal but not real functional and diverse as the stick in the field.  I remember it three of us a half hour to get the correct settings!  LOL
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseGlad to hear things are working now.  The C14 gas -may- let you run in spray transfer mode if your machine has enough voltage at the higher amperage to 'get there'.  If not, C14 will still work OK for short-circuit transfer mode too.
Reply:Originally Posted by burnandreturnNow I am back to hating MIG!   My flat/horizonals look great.  Vertical up is a bear.  I can't seem to find the sweet spot on 1/4 inch vertical up.  I get too much globbing.  If I turn down the voltage in order to slow down a bit I get no penetration. If I speed up I get not enough penetration.  I tried vertical down and it was better but it seems really strange to do vertical down.   It seems my travel speed has to be quite fast but then I feel lost with my puddle.  I just don't get that warm fuzzy feeling of control of my puddle.
Reply:Originally Posted by cuchulain92I'd much rather use MIG for thinner stuff- anything .18" or smaller. At our school short-arc is SO smooth for sheet. Sounds like the duct work you're talking about would be the kind of thing I'd MIG together, especially if I had to do it in the field, so I dunno that I'd agree with you that it's not as functional. I'll admit that it can take time to set up properly, but that gets corrected with time. Most duct work is around .0625" or less, right?
Reply:Originally Posted by 4421frankthe duct work is usually just regular mild steel, but I have seen it anywhere from 3/8" to 1" thick.  It's not sheet metal most of  the duct work is for exhaust from power generation.It's no biggie though, cuz'"If you can walk over it, you can weld it"
Reply:The video Tanglediver posted really helped alot.  It seems really strange for me to make an upsidedown v doing vertical up, but it helped alot.  Also I measured how many inches per minute on my wire feed speed I was using and adjusted it according to the suggestions posted here. I was using too high of a wire speed by about one third.  I had set the machine according to the manufacturer's recommendation but I am not sure the new switch has the same voltage settings as the original switch.  How could I measure how many volts at each setting it is actually putting out? It is only six steps from number one to six.   I cut a piece of 2 x 2 x .25 inch angle and ground it clean on the inside and stood it up in my vise and just kept welding beads up and filling the whole thing.  It is really strange looking but it really helped.
Reply:If I weld vertical down I get much better welds than vertical up.  My welds up just look OK. I have cut my pieces to see how structurally sound my welds are.  They are solid.  I can not run a stringer bead that looks good.  Even on flat welds.  If I don't weave I get a high ridge up the middle of the bead.  I tried higher settings but didn't get any better results.  Any suggestions?
Reply:Be very careful with vertical-down MIG.  It is notorious for making a weld that 'looks' good but is just not fused into the base metal.  AKA cold-lap, inadequate penetration, etc, etc.As to how to measure the voltage, you use a voltmeter.    On machines with just letters/numbers for the voltage setting, you can start with the manual's recommended settings and adjust from there.  The 'big' industrial machines often have actual voltage meters (and/or amperage meters and/or WFS meters) so that the welder can set the parameters as required and not have to 'fiddle' and run test beads as much.  So he/she can look up what the settings are supposed to be either from the wire/machine manufacturer or the WPS or other QA or process documents, set the machine, and then weld away.voltage too high for the WFS = excess spatttervoltage too low for the WFS = wire stubs into workpieceSo set the voltage mid-way between too high and too low.  As to how to get better, you just follow the directions on how to get to Carnegie Hall.Practice.    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by transitNow this is from my Miller Mig manual, being that CO2 has spatter, Miller suggests adding a few turns of inductance to the power supply by changing inductor taps if possible. With fixed inductance, another way to add inductance is to take the ground cable and warp it around a chunk of iron. Miller shows pictures before and after of the weld bead. The penetration is a little less and a bit wider, the bead is very smooth with no sign of spatter.