3-phase mig rig?

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I just need a little help with getting my machine up and running. It is a Linde/Union Carbide Vl-450 SS, part number 67730. I am trying to figure out how to find the hp rating on the three phase motor so i can order a phase converter for it. Anybody familiar with where to find it?
Reply:I don't know about the Linde, but motor HP can be accurately estimated from amp draw.Of course the motor won't pull full load amps when lightly loaded, but starting current draw would still be heavy. If 450 somewhat represents welding amps, my guess is that it draws about 30 amps at 460 volts, three phase; roughly about a 25hp motor.Is this a motor-generator MIG? If so, is this practical really? The motor would run all the time between welds, and they are noisy.Good LuckLast edited by denrep; 03-04-2010 at 12:51 AM.
Reply:seems like a rotary phase converter might cost more than just buying a used single phase welder, hell maybe even a brand new welder if your talking about 20-25hp motor"Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal"   -Henry Ford
Reply:I bought a phase converter for a lathe I use to have from a company called phase-a-matic, call them they are really helpful"Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal"   -Henry Ford
Reply:Your first step will be to make a financial sacrifice to Vacnar the God of industrial welding machines that have fallen into the hands of unknowing home welders.Pile 3789 dollar bills neatly and squirt a full can of lighter fluid on them.  Then light the pyre of dollars.There is no way in hell a homemade phase converter made from a motor will power a 3Ø welder.Yea, I know, you know a ot more about welding and machines than I do.
Reply:I was going the 3 phase converter route for my 12" 7.5 hp Grizzly table saw but decided to sell it as I was told the power consumption to convert far exceeds what you would normally use.  I have also heard from others that it is less.  I have a 10hp 110 lb motor if you are lookin to buy that size.  Let me know.  I converted my Maxstar 172 3 phase to a 152 1 phase 220v with no problem.   Search the net and maybe you will find someone out there that converted the unit.By the way... Originally Posted by Old FartYour first step will be to make a financial sacrifice to Vacnar the God of industrial welding machines that have fallen into the hands of unknowing home welders.Pile 3789 dollar bills neatly and squirt a full can of lighter fluid on them.  Then light the pyre of dollars.
Reply:Would ya'll say its a no go on this welder?
Reply:Originally Posted by jdl95stangWould ya'll say its a no go on this welder?
Reply:Okay ... I'm a noob ... is this "3Ø" a 3 phase symbol or a fancy way of say'n 30 amps???  Be gentle please ... I'm an old fart too ... well maybe not that old but at least a fart according to my wife.Miller Maxstar 172 TIG (3ph)) converted to Maxstar 152 TIG (1ph), Harris & Victor Oxy/Act, Lincoln WeldPak Pro100, Radioshack 15w Soldering Iron but I want MORE and my wife says
Reply:It's (Ø) the symbol for phase.My turn - How does one type it?Good Luck
Reply:Hold down the alt key and type 0216 for Ø or 0248 for ø are a couple of ways. Some of these things will vary from text type to text type. Be sure to use the numbers keys on the side there."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:Thanks Sandy, but I can't type didley while alt is down? I tried both alts. Originally Posted by Sandy. . .Be sure to use the numbers keys on the side there.
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepThanks Sandy, but I can't type didley while alt is down? I tried both alts.Ooops, I wasn't listening. Here goes again: NOPE!ÕMaybe it did?
Reply:Dang. I was excited to have a nice powerful mig....anybody know the diff between a static phase converter and a rotory phase converter?
Reply:Static phase converter = box full of capacitors with a relay that fakes a motor load into believing it has 3Ø power.Rotary phase converter can be anything from a homemade lashup using a 3Ø motor to make a motor load think it is getting 3Ø power to a motorgenerator set on a single shaft.  The nomenclature has been so whored it has no value any more.
Reply:Seen a Miller 452 air arcing running off a 20 hp RPC yesterday. Same friend has been running a 250 Airco CV unit from a 7 hp RPC for 30 years now.
Reply:Originally Posted by lars66Seen a Miller 452 air arcing running off a 20 hp RPC yesterday. Same friend has been running a 250 Airco CV unit from a 7 hp RPC for 30 years now.
Reply:An RPC is a R otary P hase C onverter.I don't think a static converter would have a prayer.I've built and used rotary converters and they worked fine, but I was just using them to test 3 phase equipment, I was running them at no where near their limits.
Reply:Originally Posted by BlueweldersAn RPC is a R otary P hase C onverter.I don't think a static converter would have a prayer.I've built and used rotary converters and they worked fine, but I was just using them to test 3 phase equipment, I was running them at no where near their limits.
Reply:What voltage and amperage do you have available now, 220v ?
Reply:Originally Posted by BlueweldersWhat voltage and amperage do you have available now, 220v ?
Reply:You really need to try to familiarize yourself with the requirements of your welder, get the input amps and volts.Then find out the power you have available where the welder will be used.You might read a few of the manufacturers web sites to get an idea of the lay of the land.http://www.kayind.com/tech_center/FAQ.htm#power%20drawAnd these  articles on building one.:http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph...converter.html
Reply:Don't give up yet, take the cover off and find out what the transformer is, what the output is before you junk it, and contact the manufacturer as to how they utilize three phase in your machine, and all you may need to do is replace the transformer, surely if they made a three phase machine they may have made the same machine in single phase.I don't think they would take tap outputs for the circuitry from different phases.Then to see if it is worth it.
Reply:Ahh!! A light at the end of the tunnel......i hope. I'll check it out and let ya'll know what i find out.
Reply:Interesting question. While normally static phase converter are out for welder I thinking a static phase converter might work on a motor/generator machine. Output might be a bit lower A motor/gen units do weld nice but are expensive to run doublly so if they were to be ran off of a rotary phase converter. I wonder if anyone has tried to run one off of a static converter. Call Ronk, the leading manufacture of phase converters. Make sure they understand that you're trying to drive a motor/generator unit and not a transformer machine.Tough as nails and damn near as smartWell now, let me say for the 9,727th time, for the benefit of recent Engineering Grads from the AlGore College of applied Physics, there is no way in hell a 3Ø transformer welder will work worth a damn from single phase power, UNLESS, a full motopr/generator phase converter such as a Ronk.The Ronk will use a single phase motor to drive a 3Ø generaror at about 60% power efficiency.When you round up enough money to buy a Ronk, do not tell them you intend to run a 3Ø transformer welder from it, because Ronk generally won't sell a m/g set for that purpose.Plan B,Spend months on Craigslist finding a 3Ø generator.  If you have a lot of time and skill you can even buy one with a blown engine and replace the engine with a suitable electric motor.  That will work, but probably cost you about the same as a used car.Plan C,This one works really well if your cousin's 3rd wife can steal tons of electric tape from work.Wire all 3 transformer primaries in paralell, and connect to single phase power.  Tape well.Find somebody to throw the switch so you can be ready at the stinger or gun.  Have someone standing by to call the power company to send a crew out to reset the primary breaker or fuse.  Strike an arc and discover how crappy the DC quality is.  Naw, I ain't going to tell you why.  3Ø rectifiers have tremendous advantage over single Ø rectifiers though.Plan D, Contact the manufacturer of the machine and order a single Ø transformer and rectifier.  Don't forget to ask about other parts you'll need for the single Ø power supply.  Little off the shelf items like capacitors and reactors shouldn't cost you much.  Plan to postpone paying off your house though.Plan E,Contact the power company for availability of 3Ø power to your shop.  Figure around $10,000 minimally.Memo for Tresi:Lincoln rotarys, particularly the verticles do NOT like running on static phase converters.  They may start and idle over, but they have a real nasty habit of spitting stator copper when an arc is struck, particularly if the machine is delivering more than 100 amps.  I might still have the name of the brilliant engineer formerly employed at a sheet metal fabricator if you need it.
Reply:Originally Posted by Old FartWell now, let me say for the 9,727th time, for the benefit of recent Engineering Grads from the AlGore College of applied Physics, there is no way in hell a 3Ø transformer welder will work worth a damn from single phase power, UNLESS, a full motopr/generator phase converter such as a Ronk.The Ronk will use a single phase motor to drive a 3Ø generaror at about 60% power efficiency.When you round up enough money to buy a Ronk, do not tell them you intend to run a 3Ø transformer welder from it, because Ronk generally won't sell a m/g set for that purpose.Plan B,Spend months on Craigslist finding a 3Ø generator.  If you have a lot of time and skill you can even buy one with a blown engine and replace the engine with a suitable electric motor.  That will work, but probably cost you about the same as a used car.Plan C,This one works really well if your cousin's 3rd wife can steal tons of electric tape from work.Wire all 3 transformer primaries in paralell, and connect to single phase power.  Tape well.Find somebody to throw the switch so you can be ready at the stinger or gun.  Have someone standing by to call the power company to send a crew out to reset the primary breaker or fuse.  Strike an arc and discover how crappy the DC quality is.  Naw, I ain't going to tell you why.  3Ø rectifiers have tremendous advantage over single Ø rectifiers though.Plan D, Contact the manufacturer of the machine and order a single Ø transformer and rectifier.  Don't forget to ask about other parts you'll need for the single Ø power supply.  Little off the shelf items like capacitors and reactors shouldn't cost you much.  Plan to postpone paying off your house though.Plan E,Contact the power company for availability of 3Ø power to your shop.  Figure around $10,000 minimally.Memo for Tresi:Lincoln rotarys, particularly the verticles do NOT like running on static phase converters.  They may start and idle over, but they have a real nasty habit of spitting stator copper when an arc is struck, particularly if the machine is delivering more than 100 amps.  I might still have the name of the brilliant engineer formerly employed at a sheet metal fabricator if you need it.
Reply:What size three phase tractor PTO generator would drive 400 or 500A welder comfortably? Any preferred brands?
Reply:Originally Posted by lars66Well Old Fart, I also happened to be standing right next to my friend when he bought the 20 hp RPC that was driving the 452 Miller air arcing. $1100.00 used, barn dust and all. Complete with power cords.
Reply:If I were going to equip a shop to run several larger machines, a top priority  would be three-phase power. Granted, to utilize one old industrial welder, I probably wouldn't botherIf actual three-phase service were not available, I would thumb my nose at Old Fart's god Vacnor, and would probably go with a large rotary phase converter. For an amount far less than the recomended offering of $3789 to Vacnar, I'm sure I could either hustle-up a used "turn key" phase converter, or coble one together from used parts. Before I spit in Vacnor's eye, I thought I'd make a quick Craigslist search for available phase converters. Today, the search turned up over five pages of results. I didn't look past the first page, where I found several that would probably suite 'Stang.Such as:"220 Volt ROTO PHASE Model HD-25 rotary phase converter made by ARCO ELEC. in new condition and still on the shipping pallet. Great for Grain Dryers and other larger applications in remote locations where 3 phase power is not available. . . $1888.00 Call. . .""60 HP Phase Converter - $1500 - 60 HP Phase Converter, American Rotary, good condition, complete with capacitor box and disconnect box. Less than half of a new one.""$975 - 40HP rotary phase converter in excellent condition. . ." "phase converter - $1600 -  convert 2phase to 3phase, rotery, brand new, never been used, maxes out @ 25hp, comes with electrical box with capasitors. . ." In other words, phase converters can be a practical and affordable alternative, when true three-phase power is not available.Good Luck------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Old Fart - Do you realize that you often reply to posts with a caustic bitter demeaning tone? Be careful around Alfred with that kind of talk. Alfred's been known to give an ornary cuss a swirly, to either clear the grump's head, or to give ‘em something to actually be grumpy about. Web forums are about open and friendly discussions, for the purpose of sharing of ideas and furthering knowledge. Forums are not about giving condescending nasty put-downs. I'm certain that at some point in your life you had questions that may have seemed rudimentary to those more experienced. What if each of your questions had been answered with a nasty slam? Why not try to just say what you mean, and not be mean when you say it? Lighten up man; it'll help you to live to be an even older fart.Good LuckLast edited by denrep; 03-09-2010 at 09:53 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Old FartWell isn't that special.I sure hope you remembered where that barn is so you can go help the next 37 people who want one go get theirs.Beyond your ability to type was there a point you wanted to make Lars?
Reply:Well now Denrep, you must be sitting right square in the land of plenty where farms are busting out and phase converters abound.  That situation doesn't exist in the rest of the country best I know.  As to telling some poor buzzard who is sitting on a 3Ø transformer machine he can homebrew himself a phase converter with an old motor and a few switches, that flat don't work.  He will spend the money and the hours only to watch magic smoke waft out of his welder because of a whole book full of electrical malfunctions, not to mention have arc quality about akin to that of a Lionell electric train transformer.There just ain't any point to filling kids heads with false hope.  Public Education already has that field covered, so I tell the truth.As to the rest of your message, hopefully you won't mind if I just paste it and divide it up for response purposes.Old Fart - Do you realize that you often reply to posts with a caustic bitter demeaning tone? I have no control over how you read what I wrote.  I'm not sitting in the middlle of the Senioe Center sharing tidbits of nonsense, and I don't condone fools posting crap they dredged up on Woosiepedia or some other depository of manure.  If you have a point to make, make it.  Last I looked this wasn't the ladies sewing & quilting society.Be careful around Alfred with that kind of talk. Alfred's been known to give an ornary cuss a swirly, to either clear the grump's head, or to give ‘em something to actually be grumpy about. I'm aware of 2 Alfreds, one being Alfred E Newman who would be right at home with a large number of the posts on this site, and the second being Alfred Pendergast who posesses only slightly more intelligence than a small box of rocks.  Beyond that, I have yet to meet the sumbeach man enough to give me a "swirly" for any purpose.  If you got one send him around, I ain't had a lot of fun lately.Web forums are about open and friendly discussions, for the purpose of sharing of ideas and furthering knowledge. Forums are not about giving condescending nasty put-downs. I'm certain that at some point in your life you had questions that may have seemed rudimentary to those more experienced. What if each of your questions had been answered with a nasty slam?  ONE MORE TIME, I wasn't aware this was the ladies sewing society, or that the purpose of this site was to share recipes for jams & jellies.  Good lord, this site is another PC dump I'll just sit back and read it like the comic book all PC CRAP is.Why not try to just say what you mean, and not be mean when you say it? Lighten up man; it'll help you to live to be an even older fart.Good Luck  Do you think I said what I meant to say?  I do!Reality is reality, and sitting in a boat with a hole in the bottom your a$$ will be swimming if you don't bail or patch the hole.  Talking about the hole ain't going to save you from swimming.Hi Alfred, whoever the hell you are.I don't buy lottery tickets and I don't count on luck.
Reply:Originally Posted by Old FartWell now Denrep, you must be sitting right square in the land of plenty where farms are busting out and phase converters abound.  That situation doesn't exist in the rest of the country best I know.  As to telling some poor buzzard who is sitting on a 3Ø transformer machine he can homebrew himself a phase converter with an old motor and a few switches, that flat don't work.  He will spend the money and the hours only to watch magic smoke waft out of his welder because of a whole book full of electrical malfunctions, not to mention have arc quality about akin to that of a Lionell electric train transformer.There just ain't any point to filling kids heads with false hope.  Public Education already has that field covered, so I tell the truth.As to the rest of your message, hopefully you won't mind if I just paste it and divide it up for response purposes.Old Fart - Do you realize that you often reply to posts with a caustic bitter demeaning tone? I have no control over how you read what I wrote.  I'm not sitting in the middlle of the Senioe Center sharing tidbits of nonsense, and I don't condone fools posting crap they dredged up on Woosiepedia or some other depository of manure.  If you have a point to make, make it.  Last I looked this wasn't the ladies sewing & quilting society.Be careful around Alfred with that kind of talk. Alfred's been known to give an ornary cuss a swirly, to either clear the grump's head, or to give ‘em something to actually be grumpy about. I'm aware of 2 Alfreds, one being Alfred E Newman who would be right at home with a large number of the posts on this site, and the second being Alfred Pendergast who posesses only slightly more intelligence than a small box of rocks.  Beyond that, I have yet to meet the sumbeach man enough to give me a "swirly" for any purpose.  If you got one send him around, I ain't had a lot of fun lately.Web forums are about open and friendly discussions, for the purpose of sharing of ideas and furthering knowledge. Forums are not about giving condescending nasty put-downs. I'm certain that at some point in your life you had questions that may have seemed rudimentary to those more experienced. What if each of your questions had been answered with a nasty slam?  ONE MORE TIME, I wasn't aware this was the ladies sewing society, or that the purpose of this site was to share recipes for jams & jellies.  Good lord, this site is another PC dump I'll just sit back and read it like the comic book all PC CRAP is.Why not try to just say what you mean, and not be mean when you say it? Lighten up man; it'll help you to live to be an even older fart.Good Luck  Do you think I said what I meant to say?  I do!Reality is reality, and sitting in a boat with a hole in the bottom your a$$ will be swimming if you don't bail or patch the hole.  Talking about the hole ain't going to save you from swimming.Hi Alfred, whoever the hell you are.I don't buy lottery tickets and I don't count on luck.
Reply:Fair enough, the ice cream stand opens next month; Alfred owes Old Fart a swirly, in a bowl, and Old Fart becomes a kinder gentler poster. Attachment 47591I respect that some don't count on luck, please respect that I don't subscribe to "Vacnarism" and many other "it can't be done" mentalities.Phase converters are an excellent and affordable solution for those needing to run three-phase equipment where only single-phase power is available. Freight carriers will deliver a RPC to 48 states for a very nominal fee.But all that aside, I just wanted y'all to see that I coukd tipe.   Good LuckLast edited by denrep; 10-19-2010 at 11:44 PM.
Reply:Well....this is turning out to be an interesting thread now isnt it?? Haha! I respect and appreciate all of ya'lls opinions and will consider them all. I may just give a RPC manufacturer a call just to see what they have to say. What do you mean by "a motor/generator machine"?Last edited by jdl95stang; 03-09-2010 at 08:32 PM.
Reply:Well, with beer and swirlies he has to become a kinder gentler poster.
Reply:Originally Posted by jdl95stang. . .What do you mean by "a motor/generator machine"?
Reply:Thank you and i'll let ya'll know what they say