Need ring roller

admin

Starting this job this month and will need a ring roller to make the chill rings.Should be fun lots of welding. Attached ImagesGlenn Hwy Pile Cap Adapter Signed Drawings and Calcs (3) 1.pdf (51.3 KB, 1432 views)Glenn Hwy Pile Cap Adapter Signed Drawings and Calcs (3) 2.pdf (41.8 KB, 492 views)Glenn Hwy Pile Cap Adapter Signed Drawings and Calcs (3) 3.pdf (54.1 KB, 384 views)Glenn Hwy Pile Cap Adapter Signed Drawings and Calcs (3) 4.pdf (47.1 KB, 472 views)
Reply:I don't know of one that will not leave flats on the lead in/tail out sections. Sorry.Two turn tables and a microphone.
Reply:Any ring roller should do the trick. Roll out big coils from the long bars and cut them up. They won't be flat rings but thats not to hard to fix.Make the rings slightly over size and then stuff them inside a short section of the pipe to squeeze them down to the right diameter, then smash em down flat with a couple c-clamps, then tack from the inside.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:Check all those drawings before making any big runs unless you really know those guys. Those drawings are one step up from crayons.AlA man is judged by what's between his legs...always ride a good horseMiller DialArc HFLincoln Classic 300DThermal Arc 181iPowermax 45Scotchman Ironworker(2) BridgeportsOkomota Surface GrinderAutoCAD 2010
Reply:Going to take a little muscle. Definitely not something to tackle with arm power."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:Actually, 1/4" x 1 1/2" flat bar, the easy way, doesnt require a very big ring roller at all- assuming its a powered ring roller.It is a bit much for the funky little hand crank jobbies.You could also easily pull these on a hossfeld.And if you did that, there would be no flat spots to cut off, and no tweaking em back to flat.and once you get it right, there is no trimming or cutting at all with the hossfeld. Since it is multiple pulls, it will do complete circles like this- you just pull the center pin at the end to get em out.You might need to make a custom die, though- Hossfeld makes 10", and 12" circle dies that will pull circles that OD, but no 11 1/2".Depends on how many you need. If its thousands, then some kind of dedicated die, possibly a hydraulic version of a two piece hossfeld die, is best. If  you can justify the expense, and will use it for other things, any of the rolls from Eagle will easily do this, rolling coils and cutting rings off, as suggested above. So the question really is-How Many do you need, and how much money can you justify spending.
Reply:I want to smack the guy who did those drawings Mechanical Engineer
Reply:Originally Posted by BLUE2KSSI want to smack the guy who did those drawings
Reply:Originally Posted by RiesActually, 1/4" x 1 1/2" flat bar, the easy way, doesnt require a very big ring roller at all- assuming its a powered ring roller.It is a bit much for the funky little hand crank jobbies.You could also easily pull these on a hossfeld.And if you did that, there would be no flat spots to cut off, and no tweaking em back to flat.and once you get it right, there is no trimming or cutting at all with the hossfeld. Since it is multiple pulls, it will do complete circles like this- you just pull the center pin at the end to get em out.You might need to make a custom die, though- Hossfeld makes 10", and 12" circle dies that will pull circles that OD, but no 11 1/2".Depends on how many you need. If its thousands, then some kind of dedicated die, possibly a hydraulic version of a two piece hossfeld die, is best. If  you can justify the expense, and will use it for other things, any of the rolls from Eagle will easily do this, rolling coils and cutting rings off, as suggested above. So the question really is-How Many do you need, and how much money can you justify spending.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardWhy?I don't understand.
Reply:Those drawings are not sufficient. (P.E.'s are good at some things--not necessarilydesigning functional assemblies-however.)This is a classic case which screams for 'somebody' to determine what's reallyneeded for FORM, FIT, and FUNCTION.Like it or not-FB, the above task may be in your hands by default.(That's the easiest, cleanest way to handle such things--unless you want the stateto have a young engineer tolerance the hell out of things to create a true nightmare.In reality--NOBODY cares about tolerances......but--EVERYBODY cares aboutthings 'working'....FORM, FIT, FUNCTION.)If these parts and the resulting welded assembly are actually supposed to fitother things, then issues of tolerance on locations of holes, the beveled pipeto plate edges or holes needs to be determined.The plate may see some distortion from the 3/8 CJP weld as well.Runout. location of the pipe OD relative to the plate centerhole/sides is not known.The pipe may see some cocking when welded on the positioner, as well.Blackbird
Reply:A different way.Al Attached ImagesA man is judged by what's between his legs...always ride a good horseMiller DialArc HFLincoln Classic 300DThermal Arc 181iPowermax 45Scotchman Ironworker(2) BridgeportsOkomota Surface GrinderAutoCAD 2010
Reply:Well here is the bomb shell of the night.... I made the drawings my self. I agree with all the comments made about my drawings.As you all can tell I am not a draftsman, not even a pimple on a draftsman's arse. But then I don't claim to be. I have every confidence that I can make them and make them well. I do fully admit my drawing are lacking vary lacking. Mr. Ranch Nice and I can  see the difference. I was forced to do the drawings my self due to time constraints of getting the approval before the boat sailed with the pipe on it. (or not as the case would have been)I had a conversation with the DOT project engineer (not the guy who stamped them) about my ineptitude with drawing. His take was to get the general idea across. Get the first one checked through the QA/QC system and take it from that point. Remember guys this state might be on the big side but it really is the smallest big state in America. I have had dinner with the last three Governors. I go shotgun shooting with my Federal Senator, I am a nobody.Oh me and the guy who is going to weld them in the field (my adapter to the driven pile) had a beer and he is going to have a say on the bevel on his end of my pipe pup.Last edited by Fat Bastard; 03-04-2011 at 10:07 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by SmokinPRanchRedundant dimensions, improper use of fractions and decimals, dimensioning inside object lines, dimensioning to hidden lines, improper thread and hole call outs, use of bolt circle dimension on square part, hole locations not properly stated, no tolerance notations.....etc. etc. etc.And that's just the first drawing. BLUE2KSS - I feel your pain. And somebody stamped it!!   Al
Reply:FB....I was picturing some know it all, fresh outta college, spiffy little engineer makin the drawings. I worked with a lot of their kind when I was designing so have a few painful callouses from that experience.Ya know if you put a little salt on it, it really ain't too bad when you stick your foot in your mouth. Check your messages on here I'm gonna send ya a private message.AlA man is judged by what's between his legs...always ride a good horseMiller DialArc HFLincoln Classic 300DThermal Arc 181iPowermax 45Scotchman Ironworker(2) BridgeportsOkomota Surface GrinderAutoCAD 2010
Reply:Originally Posted by SmokinPRanchFB....I was picturing some know it all, fresh outta college, spiffy little engineer makin the drawings. I worked with a lot of their kind when I was designing so have a few painful callouses from that experience.Ya know if you put a little salt on it, it really ain't too bad when you stick your foot in your mouth. Check your messages on here I'm gonna send ya a private message.Al
Reply:The last ring is 1/2" thick. Gonna be tough to roll.Tim Beeker.
Reply:FB,Why use a backing ring in the first place?  Is it because it's easier for a (semi-)skilled welder to complete the fabrication?  Where's the breakpoint between welding those joints as open root, and spending the time and effort to fabrication custom backing(chill) rings?Or is it so that you can use an AWS pre-qualified welding procedure?AWS Structural Pipe TKY joints are welded with open root joints...I just want to understand the thought process behind the design choice....Thanks.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:Originally Posted by SmokinPRanchA different way.Al
Reply:A JD2 is not a hossfeld.JD2 is great for pipe and tube, better than a hossfeld.But, for these circles, the way you pull them on the hossfeld is with the fixed radius dies on the angle iron, flange out bending dies.That is figure 10 on this page-http://www.hossfeldbender.com/toolin...angle-iron.phpYou have a fixed radius inner and outer die. So it does hold dimension.What hossfeld calls part no. 20986 on this page- http://www.hossfeldbender.com/downlo...olsets9-08.pdf$705 for the set.But- it wont run on a JD2- you would need a real hossfeld.And- they dont make the exact size you want- so, there are two workarounds. You use a filler bar, and use the next size up.It should work, but might take some fussing to get right.Use the 6" dies, which would give you a 12" OD, but use a sacrificial piece of flat bar to bring your bend down in diameter a bit.OR, much better, grind the dies to fit. This would require a bigger inner die, to grind down- grind down a 6" radius to a 5 1/2". And a smaller outer die, to grind up.It is possible that hossfeld makes the size you want- they have thousands of die patterns at the factory, many more than they list online.ANY ring roller is gonna be very fussy to roll these- its gonna take dialing in, and, frankly, mistakes will be made.When I roll things on my power ring roller that are too tight, I fix em on the hossfeld.A cheapo hand ring roller wont do these. You would be better off just heating, clamping, and bending around a pipe.A power ring roller is going to cost a minimum of 5 grand. Your budget aint big enough for a power ring roller.A real hossfeld, with the angle iron dies, is around $1500.One last thought- you could probably get away using the standard hossfeld 6" dies, but with a shorter piece of steel, so your nominal OD was 12", but with a bigger gap, then squeeze em down. You could use a strap clamp or a big vise or press to pull em together. Then tack em, and use em.Last edited by Ries; 03-05-2011 at 11:41 AM.
Reply:I wouldn't criticize too much, either of the two drawings discussed.  First of all, these are caps for a driven pile not a swiss watch.FB's drawing is what I'd call a shop drawing.  It is drawn from the point of view of the guy who has to lay out the thing so he can build it, which he could from the info given.  SPR's drawing is better from an engineering standards point of view, however the lack of tolerance information prevents it from being a fully engineered design drawing, however except for the missing horiz. location of the 5/16 hole, you could layout these plates with the information provided.M428 is correct on the lack of GD&T (Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing).  GD&T uses standard symbols to replace some of the drawing notes, gives tolerances for dimensions and references the datum that dimensions are made from. (A datum is usually a plane or surface, but I agree with M428, the only really critical layout is the hole centers which if dimensioned from the 4" hole center, as he suggests would be the reference datum for that, similar to the bolt circle, proposed by FB.  M428 is correct for a professionally engineered drawing, but since the drawing was done by the fabricator and not a P.E. I think he did pretty well, unless part of his contract was to provide a professionally engineered drawing which meets the standards of the ASME.  After all the P.E. approved and put his stamp on FB's drawing, surely he would have modified it if he thought that was necessary."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:Norite: Has my requirement nailed, I needed to produce shop drawings only and then have them stamped by my engineer. That stamp and calculations were only to show that my engineer agreed that the state DOT engineer had it right. No less than 3 P.E's and 3 AWS CWI's have reviewed these drawings and my welding plan submittal. That submittal had about 30 pages only 4 for the drawings.  The system here has a check and re-check built into it. This is my first contract with this side of the state DOT. The reason for the backing is that the state design was for a CJP with Backing using AWS D1.1 code. As of January 25  I have the contract to produce 285 pile cap adapters. The QC/QA requires VT all UT all DP all. I don't think for making the chill rings the JD2 or like machine is the way to go. It would be too time intensive, and require a more skilled worker.I am thinking the best plan is still some type of rolls machine. Simple repetition, unskilled labor required.  I will need to have someone making only 6-8 rings a day. As I am planning for 4-6 welds being made per day. I looked at subbing this out but they will want to make all 285 at one time to if they are off by some small amount I would be stuck, by the time I found the bad rings they would have been paid and I would just have to deal with it.
Reply:FB, Check out Jimmie's ring roller on the other site and see if it wouldn't work for your needs. I'm sure you could talk him into doing some short runs so you aren't swamped with a multitude of mismatched rings. I haven't looked very closely at your drawings, but if they are from round stock it would be a quick job on his larger lathe and if from square stock, his ring roller would get the job done. Attached ImagesLincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:Originally Posted by noriteI wouldn't criticize too much, either of the two drawings discussed.  First of all, these are caps for a driven pile not a swiss watch.FB's drawing is what I'd call a shop drawing.  It is drawn from the point of view of the guy who has to lay out the thing so he can build it, which he could from the info given.  SPR's drawing is better from an engineering standards point of view, however the lack of tolerance information prevents it from being a fully engineered design drawing, however except for the missing horiz. location of the 5/16 hole, you could layout these plates with the information provided.M428 is correct on the lack of GD&T (Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing).  GD&T uses standard symbols to replace some of the drawing notes, gives tolerances for dimensions and references the datum that dimensions are made from. (A datum is usually a plane or surface, but I agree with M428, the only really critical layout is the hole centers which if dimensioned from the 4" hole center, as he suggests would be the reference datum for that, similar to the bolt circle, proposed by FB.  M428 is correct for a professionally engineered drawing, but since the drawing was done by the fabricator and not a P.E. I think he did pretty well, unless part of his contract was to provide a professionally engineered drawing which meets the standards of the ASME.  After all the P.E. approved and put his stamp on FB's drawing, surely he would have modified it if he thought that was necessary.
Reply:I have been rolling rings for 30 years.You do what you want- but you will find that any ring roller you can afford for under a grand will be far from simple repitition that a shop monkey can do.Even a ten thousand dollar machine, with a digital readout will NOT produce the same size rings every time. Rolling is an art, not a science, and requires fussing. Every different batch of material, even if it is the same nominal stuff, bends a bit differently. Sometimes the odd piece from the SAME batch will roll differently- I have done jobs where I run 100 pieces thru- and 3 of em, for no reason, come out a different radius.When you roll rings, you must roll coils- otherwise, you get flats, on most machines between 4" and 6" long, on each end. When you roll a coil, you then need to accurately cut them into rings, I do it on the bandsaw.Then, every ring needs to be tweaked flat.I do this either in the hossfeld, or in a really big vise with a 24" crescent wrench.This is not simple shop monkey work, either.I have found it takes me about 2 years to train a guy to properly use the hossfeld and vise to tweak things straight. These are skilled welders, not idiots off the street.Course, I can tweak rings in a few seconds- but it took me 30 years to get to that stage.If you roll em, every single ring must be cut, accurately and straight, freehand. Takes skill.Then, every single ring must be tweaked flat- and that means, again, skill and time.Whoever does it needs to be able to look at each ring, and determine where it needs tweaking to be flat. Then, in tweaking them, you usually get them a bit out of round- and they need additional tweaking on the hossfeld to bring them back into the round, accurately gapped state your drawings show.If, on the other hand, you use the angle iron flange out dies I recommended, on the hossfeld, they come out the same diameter, and flat. No cutting, No tweaking in 99% of the cases. And, since its a fixed die that you pull til it stops, there is no decision making in the process. You put the part in, you pull till it stops, you slide it in some more, pull, and repeat til its done.I know this works- I have pulled thousands of rings in round, square, and flat over the years this way.I have also owned a bigass powered ring roller for ten years.So, as I said, do what you like.but I told ya so....Thanks FB. It's a given, if your customer has spec'd this joint design, then that's what you do.  It's not a faulty joint design, that's not what I was implying.  With a positioner to roll each part and a backing ring, you've taken about as much difficulty out of the welding as is possible.  So the added cost of the backing rings should speed up the welding, and possibly allow you to pay less for someone less skilled to make the welds.  In theory you should have few quality issues with the backing ring design.But, if you had your choice, would you use the backing rings to fabricate these parts?  Or would you alter the design to be an open root joint, and just weld them as such? Originally Posted by Fat BastardThe reason for the backing is that the state design was for a CJP with Backing using AWS D1.1 code.
Reply:Originally Posted by A_DAB_will_doThanks FB. It's a given, if your customer has spec'd this joint design, then that's what you do.  It's not a faulty joint design, that's not what I was implying.  With a positioner to roll each part and a backing ring, you've taken about as much difficulty out of the welding as is possible.  So the added cost of the backing rings should speed up the welding, and possibly allow you to pay less for someone less skilled to make the welds.  In theory you should have few quality issues with the backing ring design.But, if you had your choice, would you use the backing rings to fabricate these parts?  Or would you alter the design to be an open root joint, and just weld them as such?
Reply:Ries I am heading your advise. Please don't think I am not. I only have a few hundred hours running a slip rolls mostly on 1/4" plate and up. Most of it 36" and wider.
Reply:Just a shot in the dark here, sort of thinking outside the box.  I know you are thinking of rolling the backing rings but I wonder if this would work.If you had an 11" sched 40 pipe which is 11-3/4" OD and a wall thickness of 3/8" could you not cut the 1-1/2" rings from that.  You would have to cut the 1/8" slot in the ring slightly wider so when it is compressed inside the pipe the gap would close to whatever you want.  Looks like sched 20 is not available in 11"  pipe seems like it would have been perfect.  You would have to get the increased ring thickness approved by your client, should not be a problem as there will be no flow inside the pipe.  On the down side the rings will be 50% thicker using that much more steel.  If the extra steel thickness or cost is an issue, would it not be faster to get a tube rolled, in say 10' lengths to your spec and then cut the rings out of that.If you did it this way seems to me it would be faster and require less skill to get it done.  Or this may be a really dumb idea, I hope it will be helpful to you."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:I like the thinking. I'll look into it.
Reply:FB,    How's this one going?  I'm really curious to know what tooling you are using for tapping the holes on those plates? by hand or maybe on a mill with a tapping adapter?  Tha's a lot of holes to tap...  I got to think that would get old fast.. How did you manage to get your rings set up?  Pipe cut like bread slices?  Maybe a ring roller or (gulp) even a hossfeld bender?Just curious..--zip
Reply:Originally Posted by zipzitFB,    How's this one going?  I'm really curious to know what tooling you are using for tapping the holes on those plates? by hand or maybe on a mill with a tapping adapter?  Tha's a lot of holes to tap...  I got to think that would get old fast.. How did you manage to get your rings set up?  Pipe cut like bread slices?  Maybe a ring roller or (gulp) even a hossfeld bender?Just curious..--zip
Reply:So I purchased the Shop Outfitters 1415 Planetary Ring Roller. People were easy to work with answered questions fast and appeared to have customer service figured out. Easy ordering and shipping was fair. To Alaska we tend to take it up the @ss on shipping sometimes. It is well built, stout feeling and weighs about 35 pounds. I put some 1/"x1"x36" and rolled a 10" ring. Bypassing at the end to make a tighter ring is easy. As Ries states it will not be a simple thing to just hand to a shop boy and say make 285 today, but I think he can learn the process fast. At this point it think it is a well made product. Time will tell if that hold true. It came in just 5 days after ordering.
Reply:I have a gear reduced 12 motor that came off a tung jack for a trailer. I was thinking about using it.
Reply:Originally Posted by RiesI have been rolling rings for 30 years.You do what you want- but you will find that any ring roller you can afford for under a grand will be far from simple repitition that a shop monkey can do.Even a ten thousand dollar machine, with a digital readout will NOT produce the same size rings every time. Rolling is an art, not a science, and requires fussing. Every different batch of material, even if it is the same nominal stuff, bends a bit differently. Sometimes the odd piece from the SAME batch will roll differently- I have done jobs where I run 100 pieces thru- and 3 of em, for no reason, come out a different radius.When you roll rings, you must roll coils- otherwise, you get flats, on most machines between 4" and 6" long, on each end. When you roll a coil, you then need to accurately cut them into rings, I do it on the bandsaw.Then, every ring needs to be tweaked flat.I do this either in the hossfeld, or in a really big vise with a 24" crescent wrench.This is not simple shop monkey work, either.I have found it takes me about 2 years to train a guy to properly use the hossfeld and vise to tweak things straight. These are skilled welders, not idiots off the street.Course, I can tweak rings in a few seconds- but it took me 30 years to get to that stage.If you roll em, every single ring must be cut, accurately and straight, freehand. Takes skill.Then, every single ring must be tweaked flat- and that means, again, skill and time.Whoever does it needs to be able to look at each ring, and determine where it needs tweaking to be flat. Then, in tweaking them, you usually get them a bit out of round- and they need additional tweaking on the hossfeld to bring them back into the round, accurately gapped state your drawings show.If, on the other hand, you use the angle iron flange out dies I recommended, on the hossfeld, they come out the same diameter, and flat. No cutting, No tweaking in 99% of the cases. And, since its a fixed die that you pull til it stops, there is no decision making in the process. You put the part in, you pull till it stops, you slide it in some more, pull, and repeat til its done.I know this works- I have pulled thousands of rings in round, square, and flat over the years this way.I have also owned a bigass powered ring roller for ten years.So, as I said, do what you like.but I told ya so....
Reply:Originally Posted by app-ironworksllcI'm not trying to pick on anyone, or their methods but after countless hours with both a Roundo R2 and Hossfeld's ol' #2 I pretty much have to agree with this.I've watched many good fabricators work the Roundo and be at a loss to figure out why their s*** aint right. Like Ries said, it's an art not a science. I've rolled big runs of material that came from the same batch from the same mill and gotten substantially different results. I've never seen a batch where you could just set it and forget it.The positive inside and outside dies in the Hossfeld give much more consistent results than the Roundo (or other ring rollers). The multi pull method may take longer at first, but when you add the time to trim and tweak the rings it's a wash at best, or a time saver with the Hossfeld.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardI agree with your thinking and that of Ries. In this instance I just don't have the budget to buy the better equipment. The ring roller was the best way I could address the issues at hand.
Reply:look on ebay bought mine there it was under a $100.00 Attached Images
Reply:Update.The Shop Outfitters roller is working out better than expected. My shop apprentice picked up on it in just a few rings. If you are in the market for a limited use roller this is a good choice.