Front end loader crack?

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Soon i need to address a crack I'm my loader arm my questing is....would a higher tensile strength wire and mig welder be a good strong repair or should i stick with a buzz box and a 7018????HOBART IronMan 230 MIGSmith Lifetime WH200 HD O/A Torch
Reply:I welded a Ford loader arm 33 years ago with a buzz box and 7018 AC rod. I saw it a few weeks ago and it still looks like the day i did it. Today i prob would use a mig and some 80series wire only becaue i have it now. But i still would have done it with the 7018 if thats all i had...BobBob WrightSalem, Ohio  Birthplace of the Silver & Deming Drillhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbend10k/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sawking/1999 Miller MM185 w/ Miller 185 Spoolmate spoolgun
Reply:Being that it is heavy equipment and taking into consideration the lack of info, I'm going to say that if your only two choices are standard MIG vs. Arc, then you will want to use the arc welder. If you have flux-cored wire on hand then there is not much difference between the two and you might as well FCAW it just out of convenience.If you would prefer to use your MIG set-up, just use your torch set to pre-heat the work to 200-250 degrees and go to town. I would be sure to make a nice, deep bevel and multi-pass if you got this route though.Home:Miller XMT 304 CC/CVMiller 211 (the baby in the garage)Miller Dynasty 200DXMiller Spectrum 375 X-tremeWork:Miller Maxtron 450Lincoln Invertec V311Thermal Dynamics Pakmaster 150
Reply:Thanks guy's not sure what other info you would need but yea that's all i have at my disposal is a Mig or Arc the mig would be solid core C-25, im just a little bit better with the mig vs arc but if arc will yield a stronger weld i'll just practice some before hitting it,im not sure how i would determine 200-250 deg.HOBART IronMan 230 MIGSmith Lifetime WH200 HD O/A Torch
Reply:Originally Posted by damanThanks guy's not sure what other info you would need but yea that's all i have at my disposal is a Mig or Arc the mig would be solid core C-25, im just a little bit better with the mig vs arc but if arc will yield a stronger weld i'll just practice some before hitting it,im not sure how i would determine 200-250 deg.
Reply:Hows your access to the break?The 7018 is a higher tensile rod, why not bevel the crack and fill, grind it flush then go over the break with some 1/4 or 3/8ths fishplate and taper down the ends
Reply:A high tensile filler may not do any good if the heat affected zone of the base metal is the weakest link.  A super strong filler, something like 120 ksi, could cause very high residual stress or cracking in the HAZ.  Sometimes it may be benificial to choose a more ductile filler compared to the base metal, that way the weld can better accomodate shrinkage stresses in a highly restrained joint, or applied stresses.
Reply:Originally Posted by S10CaladeSorry, I was talking about material thickness, welder size (your not gonna to accomplish it with a 110V MIG welder) etc.If you have a wire feed welder then you can run flux-cored wire (FCAW). This offers roughly 30% better penetration and strength over traditional MIG (GMAW).As far as pre-heating to the proper temp. many companies offer temperature indicating crayon (they melt when proper temp. is achieved) and they are fairly cheap. See link.http://www.google.com/products?q=temperature+indicating+crayons&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=8HLGS_S1DoP68Aas-YSTDw&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum  =4&ved=0CDQQrQQwAw
Reply:To fix something, you have to figure out WHY it broke and fix -that- and then you can fix the actual broken thing.Just piling filler onto something isn't really fixing it.  Next, you also have have an idea as to what the base metal is.  If it's plain low carbon steel or if it is a medium carbon steel or if it is some other sort of alloy steel.  After you know -that-, you can then back into what is the appropriate filler to use for a repair and also some generalities as to the possible need for pre/post heat and so forth.But a 'usual' procedure is to clean it, bevel it, heat it, weld it with 7018, and fishplate it.  YMMV. Just how big of a front-end loader are you talking about anyway?  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:How to tell the temp?  Get an infrared non-contact thermometer.  I got one of these for about 30 bucks not too long ago.http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=96451HH187Harris O/AInfrared thermometerHalf a dozen angle grinders
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseTo fix something, you have to figure out WHY it broke and fix -that- and then you can fix the actual broken thing.Just piling filler onto something isn't really fixing it.  Next, you also have have an idea as to what the base metal is.  If it's plain low carbon steel or if it is a medium carbon steel or if it is some other sort of alloy steel.  After you know -that-, you can then back into what is the appropriate filler to use for a repair and also some generalities as to the possible need for pre/post heat and so forth.But a 'usual' procedure is to clean it, bevel it, heat it, weld it with 7018, and fishplate it.  YMMV. Just how big of a front-end loader are you talking about anyway?
Reply:spit on it when the spit startsto bubble youre right there
Reply:You probably have a mild steel box beam on your hands.I agree with pulser that an overmatch weld is not wise here. I also agree with pistolnoon about a fishplate (this could be 3/16 to 1/4" and almost any shape that doesn't have any weld parallel with the load).Matt
Reply:Originally Posted by Matt_MaguireYou probably have a mild steel box beam on your hands.I agree with pulser that an overmatch weld is not wise here. I also agree with pistolnoon about a fishplate (this could be 3/16 to 1/4" and almost any shape that doesn't have any weld parallel with the load).Matt
Reply:I do those all the time with either 7018 in the field or 70S-6 wire in the shop.QamuIs Heg qaq law' lorvIs yInqaq puS
Reply:Originally Posted by DDA52I do those all the time with either 7018 in the field or 70S-6 wire in the shop.
Reply:Originally Posted by damanNo real reason for the break just years of use i'd say never over loaded or hit anythingIt's just a small standard FORD 4500 loader 1/2 yard bucket or so,metal i have no idea what it could be,standard iron i don't know.Good idea i do have one of thos.
Reply:Originally Posted by ChuckThose ford loaders all seam to break in the area in red after a while.  Weld it up, plate it as best you can and then go on.  If its in the area I outlined in Green, thats full of oil (if you didn't all ready know).  You'd have to drain that and weld it up with stick for sure.  (The repairs on this machine were not done by me)There was a guy in Bad Axe Michigan who just parted a 4500 out on Ebay a few weeks ago, you should have been in on that!
Reply:You said in one of your earlier posts that there wasn't any room for a fish plate.  As you can see this one has a huge plate.  Can you show us a picture of yours?  I've had, and been around lots of ford loaders.  Most of them had been busted and welded at least once.  If you do a decent job of welding, and plate it up your going to be in good shape for a long time. Originally Posted by damanYep same loader as mine and in the same general area(red) im dealing with,all 4500 740 loaders cracked over time,mine isn't bad.and yes that guy that was parting that 4500 was just blocks from me i went and looked at it it was in tough shape,all cyl rods had rust and pitting,bucket wasn't the greatest but the loader arms it's self wasn't too bad was going to buy for the cyl parts but they were bad so i let it go.
Reply:I'll try to get a pic if i can find the camera.HOBART IronMan 230 MIGSmith Lifetime WH200 HD O/A Torch
Reply:You said in one of your earlier posts that there wasn't any room for a fish plate.  As you can see this one has a huge plate.  Can you show us a picture of yours?  I've had, and been around lots of ford loaders.  Most of them had been busted and welded at least once.  If you do a decent job of welding, and plate it up your going to be in good shape for a long time. Originally Posted by damanYep same loader as mine and in the same general area(red) im dealing with,all 4500 740 loaders cracked over time,mine isn't bad.and yes that guy that was parting that 4500 was just blocks from me i went and looked at it it was in tough shape,all cyl rods had rust and pitting,bucket wasn't the greatest but the loader arms it's self wasn't too bad was going to buy for the cyl parts but they were bad so i let it go.
Reply:No pics yet(working on it) but a question, need to go and pick up some rod for this job what size will i need 3/32 or 1/8" using 7018AC what kind of amperage(AC welder) do you use with this type of repair a starting point i guess,looks like most will be vert up and little flat i'd say 1/4" steel maybe lil thicker.HOBART IronMan 230 MIGSmith Lifetime WH200 HD O/A Torch
Reply:if you are more proficient with the MIG then i think you should weld the crack itself with MIG, especially if it is only 1/4" or so thick, its out of position, and its more than likely a poor fitup. better to use good technique with an average electrode than average technique with a good electrode.then once you have repaired the crack itself  you can use the 1/8" 7018 to weld the fish plate on using downhand (flat) position and clean plate with good fitup.thats my 2c for what its worth....
Reply:Ok thanks for the idea.HOBART IronMan 230 MIGSmith Lifetime WH200 HD O/A Torch
Reply:Welding techniques asideIt's definitely fixable.  And it should last as long as the originalWhat I wanted to discuss is the design.By placing the torque tube too far away from the main mast, the flex wasn't distributed evenly between the loader arm ahead of the tube, and behind it.  The arm from the tube to the mast is overly long, and the load is concentrated just behind the tube.  As you know, longer arms will store more torque, and it has to go somewhere.  This makes sense if you look at where the crack occured.  Right behind the torque tube, the point of termination of the torque stored in the loader arms.Other forces are in play too.  Side to side sway, uneven hydraulic application in the case of worn bushings etc., uneven loads..........If the tube had been placed centrally, splitting the twist load, it would have been able to withstand the stress longer.I'm sure there were hood clearance issues, as well as visibility issues.I sacrificed forward visibility to some extent by placing my torque tube further back towards the main mast.  But by doing so, I shortened the section of arm and reduced the torque load.  The smaller torque tube at the point where the bale fork attaches to the loader is quite a bit heavier than a factory built unit also.  It's somewhat smaller in dia. but heavier wall pipe....sch80Anyone designing a loader should remember that the arms are constantly trying to rack.  Phenominal amount of twist on them in regular use.  I should explain what a "torque tube" is.  It's the built up beam/tube cross brace between the two loader armsI get paid by the word Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/Yea i see what your saying,that and the fact these FORDs have very good strong lift hydraulics maybe too good and over time over stresses parts.it amazes me what my 4500 will lift.HOBART IronMan 230 MIGSmith Lifetime WH200 HD O/A Torch
Reply:Yeah, believe it or not a good 4500 can lift the rear wheels off the ground with the loader hooked into something heavy....and that's with that big arse backhoe unit hanging off the backside of it.Miller 250x & Lincoln V205-TSmith Oxy-Prop torch
Reply:1.  It is mild steel.  1/4" maximum thickness.   I'm not familiar with the loader in question, most likely the arms are built with two formed "C" sections welded together.2.  Using an 80 series wire will not make a stronger repair.   A good 70 wire weld will hold just as much as a good 80 wire weld, a poor 80 weld won't be any stronger than a poor 70 weld.  No preheat is necessary, or required.3.   In the field, I would do this with 7018, in the shop, I would do this mig.4.   I wouldn't weld anything downhill with 7018, if you want to weld downhill, use the mig, or 6011.5.   Before you get hung up on tensile strengths, remember, back in the 50's and the 60's, 99% of all farm repairs on farm equipment, were done with 60xx rods.  Includes truck frames and loader arms, as well as implements.   Many of these repairs, or frame lengthing and shortenings, are still holding just fine today.6.   There's nothing special or extra strong about Ford loader hydraulics.
Reply:Thanks jsfab and noted, probably good idea to pre heat if i mig?disagree with your 6# tho, my industrial 4500 TLB will out perform anything i've had in the past for lifting power. but thats not what this thread is about.HOBART IronMan 230 MIGSmith Lifetime WH200 HD O/A Torch
Reply:Originally Posted by damanThanks jsfab and noted, probably good idea to pre heat if i mig?disagree with your 6# tho, my industrial 4500 TLB will out perform anything i've had in the past for lifting power. but thats not what this thread is about.
Reply:Originally Posted by damanThanks jsfab and noted, probably good idea to pre heat if i mig?disagree with your 6# tho, my industrial 4500 TLB will out perform anything i've had in the past for lifting power. but thats not what this thread is about.
Reply:Alright confused now...some say stick some say MIG, how should i repair this? im better with mig then 7018 so mig it? or practice up and 7018 it?i want a strong repairHOBART IronMan 230 MIGSmith Lifetime WH200 HD O/A Torch
Reply:Originally Posted by damanAlright confused now...some say stick some say MIG, how should i repair this? im better with mig then 7018 so mig it? or practice up and 7018 it?i want a strong repair
Reply:Yea i understood that part thanks, but still not sure the best way to go here,think i'll start burning some test rod vet up and see how good i can get and go from there.HOBART IronMan 230 MIGSmith Lifetime WH200 HD O/A Torch
Reply:..... Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:You have to realize that if manufactures used anything but mild steel it would be to hard to form parts and then to expensive to make... and repair, thats why pretty much everything like this is engineered with mild steel.
Reply:True..HOBART IronMan 230 MIGSmith Lifetime WH200 HD O/A Torch
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI think what Joe is telling you is, that however you repair it, a good weld is better than a lousy one.  Throwing high strength rod at a repair doesn't make up for a good competent repair using 60k or 70k rod, or wire of the same type.It's good advice.Also consider that you really don't need super high strength stuff when dealing with the type of steel you're working with.
Reply:Originally Posted by jsfabIf afterwards, it cracks right next to the weld, doesn't mean you made a good weld, it means the welder made a lousy repair, and weakend the  base metal.
Reply:I could be wrong, but lemme give this a try as our teacher just covered this briefly.... As the metal cools in relation to the distance from the HAF it is essentially quenching the steel thusly causing carbides to form on the end of the HAF which makes the metal as hard as it can become. to combat that problem you would preheat the metal and allow it to cool slowly over time.If I'm wrong and I'm sure someone will chime in, please correct me."...My pappy was a pistol I'm a son of a gun...""...God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy..."
Reply:Originally Posted by CrawfordI could be wrong, but lemme give this a try as our teacher just covered this briefly.... As the metal cools in relation to the distance from the HAF it is essentially quenching the steel thusly causing carbides to form on the end of the HAF which makes the metal as hard as it can become. to combat that problem you would preheat the metal and allow it to cool slowly over time.If I'm wrong and I'm sure someone will chime in, please correct me.
Reply:Originally Posted by damanThat sounds right and usually what i do but i wanted to make sure i was doing it right from the pros.like maybe brush it wit ha torch back and forth?thanks!
Reply:yup right thanks...HOBART IronMan 230 MIGSmith Lifetime WH200 HD O/A Torch
Reply:daman...........another thing to watch is cumulative heat inputWhile preheating is a good way to slow the cooling process.  MAKE SURE THERE'S AN ADEQUATE COOLING PROCESSWith your beveled joint, there's a good chance you won't choose to fill it in one pass unless you're using a large rod.  I'm not saying you can't fill it in one pass, but I've never liked to do it that way.Do not immediately pile pass on top of pass.  Take a break, smoke a cigarette, eat a granola bar, or pat the dog.  Let it cool between passes.The following pics are the way NOT TO DO IT.  I've always had a tendancy to weld until it's done.  Consequently, as you can see, there was way too much heat in the surrounding metal because of the repeated passes without letting the previous pass cool.  The weld may be solid, but the parent metal has possibly been compromised.  The blue color is the indication of excessive heat.Joe climbed my butt over this one  And I walked away with a good lesson.  Another member of the forum also shared his experience with shaft repairs.I'm passing on to you what he, and others,  passed on to me.In short..........observe the effects of your efforts, see how stuff behaves, and don't be hesitant about listening to others who've been there before you.  Check out their track record, make your decision as to whether to listen to them, then take the advice.And READ BOOKS (lotta good stuff in there) Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Hydrogen embrittlement is more a concern with mild steel than the HAZ, as the low carbon content gives little up to carbide formation then leading to an untempered martensitic structure near the weld.Preheat on thinner non-direct hardening (mild) steel is not needed, but shows good practice. For thicker mild steel plate it is done only to raise the material to a temp that will cause the steel to be above the dew point at a distance of three to six inches from the arc zone.So you usually see a recommendation of 120 to 150F. With heavy plate on a cool morning you can see condensation form near an unheated joint when welding. The the arc causes nearby air to expell moisture and some will condense on the cool surface nearby (sometimes as droplets). Actual water near 7018 is a no no, it's also not really that wonderful with mig either. The actual puddle isn't the only place hydrogen can migrate into steel (just drop a welded part in some glycerin after it cools and watch the bubbles).In your case with 1/4" material the heat will travel quickly enough hydrogen migration from condensation would be no problem.I agree with the above that  you should weld with the method that you do best. There is nothing wrong with a correctly done MIG for this task. I can't tell you how little I like AC 7018...As for 7018, old hands would use it as much for "feedback" as for strength. If you traveled over a pipe or inclusion in the material the rod would "fuss" and the welder knew there was something under there.Matt
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersamm The blue color is the indication of excessive heat.
Reply:daman,  things have gone way around the bend and touched on a bunch of rabbit trails.  if you are better at mig than you are stick welding, then bevel the joint and mig it.  after the repair is done use it like you stole it and fix it again if it breaks 20 years down the road.  if it does break again 20 years down the road, then fish plate it and move the crack to another area and fix it 20 years down the road.....some of this is in jest, but unless you re-engineer the lift then just repair the arm when it needs it.  if you can't get the unit in the shop to weld it, cover the tractor with a tarp and weld away.lot's of info out there to scare ya and make ya second guess yourself, but ultimately, your mig welder is big enough to do the weld in a single pass.  (I am thinking you have the largest hobart mig correct?)  burn some wire and have fun.
Reply:The thread has gone to He11 in a handbasket  No biggee, don't mind it on mine either.7018AC isn't such a bad rod.  It's a good alternative for low powered dudes like me.  I now have the capability to use the rod in DC, but there was a time I didn't.  And I still prefer it in situations where there's arc blow.Porosity at start seems to be a problem with it.  Long arcing, or slight whipping, at the start of the weld seems to solve the problem.  Seems to be just a matter of building heat.  These techniques are strictly limited to the start, and shouldn't be followed during the course of the weld.And, as I've said before........AC is really good for fast trouble free restarts when you're doing a bunch of short welds with the same rod."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:HI JIM, AND HOW ARE YOU DOING THIS FINE EVENING??????"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Wow thanks for all the replies guy's always love reading your tips and suggestions and take every single one to heart,I've welded allot in the past and still do today but never really put any heart into but I'd like to change that try to do a better correctly done job been spending allot of time here reading and practicing as time allows it.appreciate all the post's, you guy's know your sh*t!   HOBART IronMan 230 MIGSmith Lifetime WH200 HD O/A Torch