spray arc settings for 052

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I find myself without a good referance source so Im askin' you guys. My boss wants to go to 052 wire. We are running 045 now. The boss likes for us to spray arc and he wants to get more feet per minute by going to larger wire. Here is my problem, most of our products are composed of 10 gauge sheet, 7 gauge rectangular and quarter wall square tube. I don't know that we will be able to spray the 052 and stay within the amperage tolerance of the materials. So anyone with a referance guide can i get the amp ratings for the materials listed and for spray arc with 052 solid wire and 98/2 gas. Our equipment is mostly 70's and older vintage so no readouts to tell what amps Im running now so.Last edited by MrLeadMan; 05-07-2010 at 06:39 PM.Reason: brainfartRanger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe
Reply:What about going to a gas-shielded fluxcore wire, like an E-70 something.  It will run just like spray arc and with a "0" wire you can get a high deposition rate from extra iron powder in the flux.  I dont like the idea of running .052 wire on 10ga material, I have a feeling it will want to undercut or burn through.However, with a 90-10 mix .052 should be run 300-485 IPM and 30-32 volts.  BTW, it took me about 5min of searching to find those same parameters on a mfg's website.Last edited by sn0border88; 05-07-2010 at 07:13 PM.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:?????Ranger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe
Reply:In my personal experience i would not spray materials that thin and also you have to think about the distortion and all the heat input i think you will be having problems with undercut etc but post results when u do give it a tryCigweld Transmig 265seBoc 140amp StickBoss 200amp AC/DC TIGLincoln Electric Invertec V260-S
Reply:Originally Posted by MrLeadMan?????
Reply:I don't like the 052 idea either, personally I think we could step back to 035. What we need is automation plain and simple, but the man signing the checks is the one that had this brain child so all us hired help can do is live with it. Im just trying to source some specs to back up what experience tells me. Understand also that I don't have a vote in what wire gas combination the man decides to buy, that is why I said ???? That and the five minute comment. Five minutes that didnt yield useful information in my book. 90/10, I said we use 98/2 and in my experence the two run differently. So I didnt see the point of referencing something different and then being all ritcheous about the time it took.Ranger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe
Reply:98/2 does run differently, but I guarantee you those specs for 90/10 will get you pretty close to where you want to be.  It was meant as a starting point, I would jump in at 350IPM and 30 volts and see how it runs.If I was looking for statistics to prove me point, I would look at deposition rates of manual welders vs. automation as well as travel speed.  It wont take much to prove that a robot running pulsed spray at 600+ WFS and 60+ IPM travel speed is by far superior than a weldor running .052 wire.Why do you think you should step back to .035?  .045 is a good wire size for what your trying to do.Last edited by sn0border88; 05-07-2010 at 09:49 PM.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:I think the 035 would give a little more adjustability for some of our products that require an extreme amount of skill and concentration. If it was my shop there would be at least two robots running. But beggers can't be choosers. Good thought on the deposit rates that might just be would the boss needs to hear.Ranger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe
Reply:Originally Posted by MrLeadManI don't like the 052 idea either, personally I think we could step back to 035. What we need is automation plain and simple, but the man signing the checks is the one that had this brain child so all us hired help can do is live with it. Im just trying to source some specs to back up what experience tells me. Understand also that I don't have a vote in what wire gas combination the man decides to buy, that is why I said ???? That and the five minute comment. Five minutes that didnt yield useful information in my book. 90/10, I said we use 98/2 and in my experence the two run differently. So I didnt see the point of referencing something different and then being all ritcheous about the time it took.
Reply:Originally Posted by Matt_MaguireI'm not sure of the gas, 98/2 (Ar, O2orO5 = old school stainless), or 90Ar-8-2 tri-mix(fill in the last two with He,Co2 or O2  = your boss is a sucker and I got stuff for sale, if this is steel).
Reply:Somebody needs to "get through" to the boss that a "bigger hammer" is not always the solution.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:There aren't always technical solutions to human problems.One way to deal with idiots is to very supportively ask them every detail of how they want to run their mistake so they know they "own it".  Never tell them they own it. Trying to force the truth on morons is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It doesn't work and annoys the pig. I don't owe loyalty to swine, though making pork chops is fun.I've worked for plenty of people who don't know what they are doing, and the answer to that is to avoid being blamed.  if they will get angry at you for contradicting them, don't contradict them. Console them when their idea fails, and even consider not helping solve the problem until actually given the problem to solve.  If you can test and prove the real solution on the sly, then keep that in mind so when idiot boy watches his method fail, you'll be ahead of the game.I'd stand up for actual safety issues, but anyone I work for is welcome to foul up everything else but my paycheck if they like.Last edited by farmall; 05-08-2010 at 12:51 PM.
Reply:Farmall you hit the nail on the head.Ranger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe
Reply:"Trying to force the truth on morons is like trying to teach a pig to sing"every work day of my F*cking LIFE!HH187Hobart 500i plasma cutterClark 4.5" GrinderDewalt 14" chop saw30 gallom 1.6 hp compressor10 gallon pressure pot sand blasterlots of hand tools
Reply:I had to go to the shop today (too many naps and too much time trying to unscrew my lumpy lawn) gotta catch up (no time & 1/2 for me)...Anyway I looked for the materials on deposition to post up and NO JOY. I moved last year and I can't find what I want.Move on, this doesn't have all you want but some (Lincoln seems to be anal about pulse welding showing no dep rates below .045 wire) Download GMAW Guide PDF link below it's the top link;http://www.google.com/search?q=c4200+welding+guidePage 65, Figure 43 shows (roughly) when spray transition starts (WFS/AMPS) for wire sizes (when the line starts to curve). The chart is close but some salesmanship is going on here.Page 66 Figure 50 shows deposition rates for composite steel wire (metal core, it's very close to hard wire), but nothing below 045 (hello.. pulse welding).Figure 50 shows 045 at about 6lbs per/hr @ 250IPM (that's good), however Figure 43 only shows 035 a little over 6lbs at 250amps by IPM (that's wrong, the real IPM is higher resulting in 7-7 1/2lbs). The energy and wire chemistry on 035 stays good 'till 800 IPM and about 9lbs/hr.I'm workin' again tommorrow and may get some time later to give more exact figures. BTW, funny how figure 43 shows 045 and 052 transition to spray so close to 250amps... It's like nobody cares, close enough...Matt
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border8898/2 Is a great choice for spray transfer, along with 99/1 and 95/5.  However, those gases will not run well in short circuit.  The decrease in CO2 content means you need to run more volts/WFS to get the same amount of heat but then you usually end up with a rough SC/globular transfer.This is the point I was trying to make, sometimes you can only do some much with what you have.
Reply:I could be wrong here, but generally I have seen the spray transition point determined by the volts, not by the amperage.  Im pretty sure I could run .045 at 250 amps but if I only had 16 volts, its just going to be a mess.  Crank that up to ~26 volts and you should see a nice axial spray.Metal core wire is VERY different from solid wire.  It welds totally different, sprays at very low amperage and I believe unless you have a nice pulsed power source its its limited to flat and some horizontal just like spraying solid wire.  Its typically used in robotic applications because it allows fast travel speeds and because it sprays at low amps it fills gaps better tolerating poorer fitup.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88I could be wrong here, but generally I have seen the spray transition point determined by the volts, not by the amperage.  Im pretty sure I could run .045 at 250 amps but if I only had 16 volts, its just going to be a mess.  Crank that up to ~26 volts and you should see a nice axial spray.Metal core wire is VERY different from solid wire.  It welds totally different, sprays at very low amperage and I believe unless you have a nice pulsed power source its its limited to flat and some horizontal just like spraying solid wire.  Its typically used in robotic applications because it allows fast travel speeds and because it sprays at low amps it fills gaps better tolerating poorer fitup.