Customer Owned Cylinders

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I've seen multiple threads on CO Cylinders and wanted to try to shed some light.This is based off my companies policies, but may not be your LWS. Also I do not know how true the information below is, but it is what I've been told.The Dept of Transportation require documented ownership of cylinders that can hold more than 80cf of product. At or under 80 they really don't care. So most LWS don't sale cylinders over 80 because of all the paperwork associated or they do a "lifetime lease" for certain customers, in my area this is becoming rare. They don't charge rent but don't actually sale the cylinder either which causes issues down the road when the LWS closes or gets bought out. Usually their isn't any paperwork and the new company actually has purchased the assets, cylinders,  of the old company  or if the LWS shut down other LWS won't accept their cylinders.  If you do own your cylinders and they are over 80cf and have a bill of sale most LWS don't want to deal with it because they have to take that exact cylinder enter it into their production line and babysit it all the way through to make sure you get that exact cylinder back. This can take from a couple of days to weeks or months depending on where your LWS's fill plant is. I always get asked why don't you just take my cylinder and give me one of yours. Because we would have to legally buy it and do a bill of sale with serial numbers and Then remove neck rings and most of the time it's just not worth it.Also get asked just take this cylinder what does it matter if it belongs to someone else? Because if I take it and fill it. I have committed theft. I took something that doesn't belong to my company.  We do get audited checking to make sure we aren't doing this. Companies that do take cylinders over 80cf that don't belong to them are breaking the law whether it's benefitting you or not shouldn't matter.Buying cylinders on Craigslist without the owner having papers that proves he or she owns them is a gamble. Some LWS will repossess them if you bring them in to exchange. Before I get the typical response of "over my dead body" or "you will have to fight me over it" please note that you are in possession of stolen property. Swap positions with the LWS and see if feels right.Now on the cyls below 80 it is completely up to your LWS on if they take other companies cylinders, we take any cylinder under 80 whether it's out of test date or not. Please understand most of the guys at the LWS that you are screaming at have bosses and are doing what they are told. If you don't like what they are saying take your business elsewhere. That speaks louder than arguing till you are blue in the face.I hope this helps. Please reply with any questions and I will do my best to get you answers.
Reply:Hi there.Do you work for Airgas?Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:I call BS I have quite a few cylinders larger than 80CF that I own free and clear. It is all a scare tactic that the big welding supply companies use to keep them all in there hands. If you have the cash and want to buy a 300cf tank you can.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:I know that I "bought" a larger cylinder from the LWS.  It has their name on the collar.  When I take it in, they exchange it.   AFAIK, there is only one LWS within 50 miles.   I worry what will happen if they close or are taken over.
Reply:I've got a 330 that my local shop exchanges in MS.  No problem.  The original one I started with had a different company on the ring too.  I think this issue highlights a benefit of having a good relationship with a local shop and one of the perquisites of buying your machines locally.
Reply:I think there is a mind set at work there. If you do not buy it from me I will make your life as hard as I can.  It's not like there is a welding supplier on every corner. Never mind the new customer that just  might spend a load more for a longer period of time if they actually get customer service. What a concept ! I also understand that there is Hydrostatic Testing of the cylinders that should be considered, as in has it been done and age of the cylinder. But then again who knows if Biffs welding supply is doing that to their own stuff. The Craig list thing I agree  that is chancy, but if the cylinder was from another local LWS what's the big deal . The world today, "born free hyped to death"Greg
Reply:Let me ask you this, how did the welding supplies get the tanks to start out if they cant be owned.......Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:Everything I've researched straight through the DOT shows no requirements of documented ownership. Purely requirements on inspection, storage, etc. In short, own/use what you want as long as it's the correct type of cylinder for the correct type of gas. Make sure it's in working order. IE: in hydro, burst disc intact, etc. From my personal experiences, which are VERY limited. My local welding shops (four that I checked with) all will trade out my 125cf tank. That includes Airgas. Some will also give me the option of them filling my tank on site.
Reply:Ha. I don't work for Airgas just a family owned company. The way they are buying out everyone I might one day though.Tozzi- I didn't say that you could not buy one. I only stated why most companies don't sell their larger tanks. There are many customers that truly do own theirs. Unfortunately most people have bought theirs from people who did not own them to begin with.K45- that's kind of what I was talking about. You bought it but does it truly belong to you or is a lifetime lease. I don't know.MX- if they took it with the other companies name in it and gave you one of theirs than you are good to go. They now have another companies property and are responsible if they get caught. Question is can you swap out theirs at another LWS? If you can't then they what do you do if they close?Pepi- In some cases I agree with your second statement, but my paycheck is signed by someone other than myself. That limits what I can and can't do with his cylinders.Tozzi- If I said they can't be owned than I am sorry. They can be owned. We buy thousands of cylinders every year. It's not if they can or can't be owned its the issue with all the paperwork associated with owning them. We have records of every cylinder we bought including serial numbers. The 80cf and under are the only ones we don't have to keep documents on.Kavall- hmm. This is why I put "what I've been told" in my first email. I have 8 different companies I compete against with about 14 different branches in my area. To my knowledge none will take a 125cf cylinder unless it belongs to them. I believe different areas treat cylinders very differently.Also, companies like Airgas have bought out hundreds of companies and now own those bought out companies cylinders. So just because it says Johnys Welding on the neck ring it does mean it dosnt belong to Airgas. Guys, please know that I am not trying to tell anyone what they can and can't do with their cylinders or tell other LWS what they can and can't do with theirs. I am just trying to give some information on how most LWS operate on a daily basis. I have been through a lot of tense situations when a person brings in a couple of large cylinders and we have to tell him that they don't belong to him. Heck I've been told that he bought them from my competitor down the street and to call them. Problem is when we do call them they act like they have never met him.Thanks and keep the questions coming. I will answer them the best I can.
Reply:Take a look athttp://www.gawda.org/uploadedFiles/G...cyPp100610.pdfConfusing as hell.
Reply:There seems to be no standard across the country.  My LWS sells up to 125'.  They may sell larger, but they discourage it.  125 is as heavy as I want to lift anymore.
Reply:I don't get it. If there are no owner markings on the ring indicating ownership, it is a customer owned bottle. And in most states under the US constitution, possession itself is enough to establish ownership. Accusation to the otherwise is the burden of the accuser. So if I take a magic marker and write my name on the ring, I am done???????That is what you are saying right?Oh, and there are lots of things I claim as mine and are not marked, and I lost the proof of ownership years ago. Like my cuttlery that I take the knife sharpener. Or my endmills to the tool grinder. Or my car to put gas in it. Or my ---------------, you get the point. Glad you have not been assimilated by AirGas yet. I think they are starting to buckle under thier quest for domination.Last edited by shovelon; 03-04-2013 at 05:03 PM.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Shovelon, pretty much correct on your statement, but it's up to the LWS to make the call if they want to take that chance.. It states on that link to use good judgement on determining ownership. Airgas took Tractor Supply to court for letting customers turn in AG cylinders and picking up theirs and won. Coca Cola and Pepsi have threatened many LWS with lawsuits for swapping out their 20# CO2 cylinders and I promise I took a couple in based off the customer telling me they bought them. We had to find all the ones we had taken and turn them into Coke.  So it's really a tricky situation. One comparison I was told- You buy a movie from a local Movie Store with their sticker on it then go to another one and try to sell it or trade it for one of theirs with the original comapanies sticker still on it, referencing neck ring here, they probably will call the cops on you or tell you to leave. Another one If someone tried to sell you a welder that had a sticker saying this machine belongs to XY Construction, neck ring again, and you bought it anyway then the cops showed up and took it away because it was stolen and the construction company could prove via records it was theirs. Would you be mad at XY or the thief? Guys please don't think I'm bashing or criticizing I enjoy good discussions where everyone has good points. It's why I joined this site. Good guys with good ideas. Going to try our best not join Airgas's New Welding World Order!!!!
Reply:Thanks for posting.Regulations put businesses in tricky situations where we have to think of worst case scenarios- I can relate.I understand that folks call Bull Shieite but you have to understand that for the LWS or any other small business there's some Guv'ment paper pusher down the road that can wreak havoc on us because they  don't understand that it is all pretty silly and in the end the small business owner can get hit with hefty fines- right or wrong- it takes a krap load of work to get out from under a guv'ment fine.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:I'm an inherently skeptical person. My profession as a gunsmith has made me even more so. I can't tell you how many times I have people telling me they have a gun that's unregistered or that it's illegal to own a machine gun. Both are false in the majority of the country. Most of the US has no firearms registration and most of the US it's still legal to own a fully automatic weapon (as long as it's a legally transferable NFA gun). With that little deviation into my own background, that link was quite informative, however all it's really saying is you can't exchange a leased cylinder at another facility. You can still get it refilled if filling is available at your local supplier even if the name is different on the tank. Lastly, while it's a fine line, there's an important difference here. DOT regs do NOT prohibit the ownership of any volume cylinder nor do they prevent suppliers from filling them. They prevent suppliers from taking possession of ANY size cylinder in trade that reasonable belief is that it's owned by someone else who isn't able to give consent to the change of ownership. Or at least that's all the information I could glean out of the PDF. Which I greatly appreciate having the chance to read.
Reply:interesting topic I have been told by Numerous LWS that if the neck ring is blank its a CO (customer Owned) and that it does not matter the size 300 cf all the way down to a 20cfall my bottles are blank neck rings i find is sad to read that alot of east coast LWS will not swap out CO tanks over 80cfMiller Xmt 350Lincoln Ln-25Ahp 200xSmith Gas Mixer AR/HTig is my Kung FuThrowing down dimes and weaving aboutInstagram http://instagram.com/[email protected]
Reply:Originally Posted by WookieWeldinginteresting topic I have been told by Numerous LWS that if the neck ring is blank its a CO (customer Owned) and that it does not matter the size 300 cf all the way down to a 20cfall my bottles are blank neck rings i find is sad to read that alot of east coast LWS will not swap out CO tanks over 80cf
Reply:Originally Posted by WookieWeldinginteresting topic I have been told by Numerous LWS that if the neck ring is blank its a CO (customer Owned) and that it does not matter the size 300 cf all the way down to a 20cfall my bottles are blank neck rings i find is sad to read that alot of east coast LWS will not swap out CO tanks over 80cf
Reply:Of 2 of the closest LWS to me, one is "Airgas", one is not, and I gladly drive twice as far to avoid "Airgas" !When it comes to cylinders,"Airgas" reminds me of what it would be like to live under "Faschist Tyranny". The other place...great service and good prices.
Reply:I own at least 5 large cylinders (250 - 330 cu. ft., Oxygen and inert gas). I deal with Airgas in Massachusetts and an independent LWS in Illinois. None of them have told me I can't own these cylinders. This "homeland security" BS is just that, BS.It conveniently allows LWS's to require you to buy your gas in smaller cylinders at a higher price per cu. ft. I do have a long-standing relationship with both places, and I can understand an LWS being reluctant to sell to an unknown person who seems suspicious. But if they tell you it's "government regulations", they're full of it.JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:Again I don't believe I have ever said you can't own your own cylinders. I tried to explain the reasons why most LWS don't sale them or take them in. Having over 25 LWS within a hundered miles of my house I can honestly say the vast majority of them will not take a customer owned large cylinder and swap it out for one of theirs. They can take the cylinder enter it into their production line and fill it. Now they are supposed to have some sort of proof that the customer is the actuall owner and unfortunately someone's word doesn't hold up well in a court case.  I actually have a couple of customers who have bought and can prove they bought legitimately from the correct owner. If they bring us one of these we take it to the plant refill it and get it back to them. Usually take about a week. Unfortunately most people that own their own want to give me theirs and get one of ours. That's where the problems arise.
Reply:My local praxair stocks Co bottles in 300 to 40 cf I just bring in my Co bottle (smooth neck band) and swap outI have inert bottles from 300 to 145 cf and have no problems no acct no lease no bottle title non of that bsThey just put mine in the Co rotationIf I just want a fill I just go over to Cameron  welding supply in Stanton CAAgian no issues no proving its customer owned the smooth neck band speaks for its selfLast edited by WeldorWes; 03-07-2013 at 10:05 PM.Miller Xmt 350Lincoln Ln-25Ahp 200xSmith Gas Mixer AR/HTig is my Kung FuThrowing down dimes and weaving aboutInstagram http://instagram.com/[email protected]