Did you learn to weld in high school?

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I teach an introductory Ag mechanics class in high school.  We have a new shop with 6 lincoln 225 AC arc welders and 6 millermatic 251 mig welders.  We usually start by letting the students work with the arc welders and teach them how to use the acetylene torch if it seems like something they can handle.  My question is, How did you guys learn to stick weld?  We have been using 7018 AC rods on our Lincoln AC 225 machines without an oven on 1/4 material and frankly it has been a nightmare.  We can't get many quality welds, porosity is a big problem and the students can't seem to be able to make any kind of consistent improvement in the quality of the beads.  I want them to feel comfortable setting the machine, making passes normally just dragging the electrode without getting to involved.  The students that really enjoy it will obviously take more on but for most the ability to set amperage and run a bead is enough. Can anyone suggest an Arc welding project they may have completed in school or some different rods to try that won't be as affected by moisture?  Any help is greatly appreciated.
Reply:I'd highly recommend 6013 for learning how to weld with a low-end machine like that.
Reply:I agree with mac.... I helped teach an intro level welding class when i was in college.  I would suggest a 6013 or 7014 to start with.   Stay away from the 7018's or other low hydrogen rods with beginning students as well as the 6010/6011 cellulose rods.   I found out the students did alot better after we started teaching Oxy/Acetylene welding first before stick or mig.  When you teach them to gas weld it teaches them about controlling the puddle, and what to look for as far as the metal fusing together.   I will add don;t start on mig.  Mig is to simple, and in my opinion make stick more difficult for them to learn as they are more likely to get frustrated.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:I agree, get some 6013 rods. In my shop class many, many moons ago, we built everything from fireplace log holders to bookshelves and tables. Our teacher let us pick a project to make from metal, then build it. The best way to learn.We also used the O/A as our PRIMARY means to weld/braze our metal projects together.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Originally Posted by MAC702I'd highly recommend 6013 for learning how to weld with a low-end machine like that.
Reply:I havent even taught oxyacetylene welding as many look at it as a lost art.  We have one oxyacetylen rig and 20 students can work with it at one.  It is a hard to keep 20 of them busy but I agree that they definielty don't need to mig weld before the arc.  I normally don't even get into mig welding into the advanced level class.  We also don't normally build projects per say in an intro class we tend to focus more on skills.  If I have 60 students between 3 classes and each student has a skill it is next to impossible to get anything done due to space.  Paying for the steel to build projects is another big issue.  Students think steel should be free but there is not funding for it in our district and I can't even get a distributor to cut much of a break on the price.  I am looking for some good arc welding skills to incorporate into the class.
Reply:here is something that we did with the class I helped teach.  Call around to the larger machine shops, welding/fabrication shops and tell them you are teaching a class at the local school and need steel for practicing.  A lot of places would not mind you coming and raiding there scrap or drop piles for that reason.  If they donate it to the school, they can actually write it off as a tax deduction.  We supplied the entire welding lab with free scrap from a local equipment builder.  Most were always willing to help if it was for teaching at the school.  Just make sure you explain that the material will not be used for financial gain.O/A is somewhat of a lost art, since it is not used near as much but gas welding will help teach basic fundementals and also helps with skills related to "keyhole-ing" as well as tig welding.  Before I would let my students touch an electric welder they showed me a decent weld with a torch, and the results of the students abilities stood out more after we started the O/A training first.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:6013 is what we used in college.  I took metal shop in high school and ALL we could use is the oxy torch to weld and braize with.Been thinking about the welding instructor thing my self.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I didn't learn to weld in High School but when I did learn what brought it all together for me was simply creating a puddle with O/A.  I literally just watched the instructor make the puddle and move it around a piece 1/8 inch plated then did it myself.  That didn't teach me to weld but it sure cleared up the process for me.We did stick with Lincoln 225 AC DC but the instructor had us form beads with 6011 on pieces of 3/8 plate.  Have them use either 6013 or 7014 the 6011 makes it difficult for a beginner.  If I was faced with using that setup today I would need a good bit of practice.
Reply:Nope.  They stopped the metal class years before I got into high school because kids were making ninja stars and other weapons.I learned in college.
Reply:Another vote for 7014.  Great early confidence builder to get started with.Favorite right now is a Miller Syncro 200.Tons of tools and I blame at least one of them when things don't go right.
Reply:gocanes719,All of the previous posts on this thread are good, but My experiences teaching in the industrial environment is that the students that began on Oxy-fuel processes learn to watch the puddle formations and fair better at producing quality weld in less learning time after that. I’m so convinced of this- when I have prospective students from work who continuously hound me about “when is the next company weld class” I offer them the opportunity to come to my home on weekends and I start them out with oxy welding at my own experience. This has benefited me- when the class at works does make- the oxy prepped students take off quickly and often become my student training assistants- which in turn is a real plus because teaching often "teaches" the teacher as much as the student.Martin MC Weld TechAWS-CWIAWS-CWEwww.linkedin.com/pub/martin-cramer/20/b36/940/
Reply:as far as projects go, for our final welding project, we were required to write our names in cursive on a piece of 1/4 scrap. if it wasn't legible or there was too much spatter, we had to start over. "Ask not for whom the bone bones, it bones for thee" - Bender
Reply:Write your name?  That's an odd project.  Did you have to follow a soapstone mark or anything?
Reply:Originally Posted by Hammack_WeldingStay away from the 7018's or other low hydrogen rods with beginning students as well as the 6010/6011 cellulose rods.
Reply:I was wondering the same thing, concerning 6011.  I began learning with 6011.  I think it is the easiest to learn with.  It will never be pretty like some of ther other rods.  The lower amperage will give you more welding time with your welders per duty cycle.  Easier to decern the puddle 6013 and 7018.  The manipulation of the rod is a good practice to learn.   Oh yeah I learned to weld at VoTech after high school..
Reply:I learned oxy-acetylene first, at a young age.  My dad taught me.  When we had welding unit in shop class in Jr High, the instructor was impressed that I was able to demonstrate oxy torch welding skills on the first day of the class.  Unfortunately, we didn't really get to learn any welding skills in the class, so I have my dad to thank for teaching me.  That experience with the oxy torch helped me much later in life when I started teaching myself to TIG.  MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:I've been avoiding this thread because of the original question I've answered 18 times now.. Yes I did.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I agree with you welderboy  they are an easy rod to run, but from a teaching standpoint I found it far easier to get results from a "drag" style rod from someone who has never welded than it is with the 6010/6011.  For one thing the most common trouble with newbies I have seen was holding a long arc.  It's alot easier for a newbie to start an arc and drag the rod easy and smooth than trying to whip a 6011 consistently.  They can actually feel contact with the plate and it helps them get the hang of keeping the arc length consistent.  Once they can run a decent bead with a 6013/7014 then getting the hang of a 6011 is much easier.  That was just my experience from the teaching I did.  I am sure that others have other methods that still have the same end result...I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:I was first taught O/A welding, then moved to an ancient Lincoln tombstone with 7018 rods. First we had to start an arc, hold it for 10 seconds, then stop it, 10 times in a row perfectly. After that we got to actually run a bead. After a student got decent with the stick welder, we were allowed to move to MIG.
Reply:In metals 1 in high school all of practice was done on 6" lengths of 1" by 1/4 " bar for stick welding and 1/8 thick for Oxy/ acetylene. We started with 6013 bead and then 6011. From there it was flat butt welds and then on to out of position work having to pass with 6013 then 6011 before moving on to the next position. In metals II we had to do a welding project but we had to buy our own steel for our projects. The school would give us all the rod and wire we could burn. This was fair becuase the projects were things chosen by us like engine stands, car ramps even a car trailer was made in a metals III class.
Reply:Originally Posted by Hammack_WeldingIt's alot easier for a newbie to start an arc and drag the rod easy and smooth than trying to whip a 6011 consistently.
Reply:Like DesertRider33 my dad taught me o/a when I was 13. I work in the same area I learned that 35 yrs ago and people bring me stuff from 200 miles away(St Louis, K.C. etc.) today to be tig welded at $100 an hr.I believe Dad had it right. I say get welding tips for your o/a setup and start a schedule to get every one time on it. BTW those class to teacher ratios are to high IMO to really learn anything. It seems to me you have sparked a good interest in your school....looks like you need to add more class times or get some help and rotate book days with shop days. 30 kids roaming thru a welding shop all at once with only a dozen machines sounds like a breeding ground for bad shop habits.I vote yes for 7014 also ....it'll make you look good.Making things with saws and drill presses and the shears and brakes will keep 'em busy too.I would certainly go for a very strict safety/horseplay policy. Does your budget allow you to buy new equipment?Miller Dynasty 700Miller 350P with Aluma-pro push-pullMiller 280 Dynasty with expansion card Dynasty 200 DXMigMax 215 Enuff power and hand tools to create one of anything..... but mass produce nothing!!!
Reply:I'm taking the metal program at my school right now.We actually started with 7018 and the project was to do a CWB(flat).  Then we moved onto oxy/acetylene brazing and that was actually the bulk of the class because he wanted to teach you the way the puddle acts etc...  Then in grade 12 all you do is 3 CWB's one vertical, horizontal and overhead.  There was also some tig if you were teachers pet.
Reply:gocane,To answer your question  yes I learn the finer points of welding in high school ag shop.  My question is are you trying to teach repair or fabrication or both?  One thing that I learned early on make it work with what you have.  I grew up in a small farming town.  (Fruit orchards mostly)  The best teacher for me was a local implement dealer.  (My first real paying job.  $100.00 per month age 12 yrs old.)  This man went thought World War Two.  He was also the son of a blacksmith.  He could forge weld better than I can arc weld even today, over a half century later.       To keep students interest, you need to build some useful tools or implements.   Our first project was to build a tractor mounted buzz saw. This was to be used by us.  F.F.A.  members to raise money in the firewood business.  After that it was orchard trailers to be used at harvest time.  And many others too numerous to mention.       If you are going to teach your students how to make a living in the ag business, welding is just a small portion of it.         Getting back to your question on welding rod 6013 is a good rod to learn with.   You also need to think in terms of welding alloy steels.  ( Chrome Moly etc.   This where your low hydrogen rods come in and proper heat treating.    You also mention no electrode oven .  Ans.  Plywood or sheet-metal box heat lamp instant rod oven.    O/A welding?   Yes everyone needs to learn how to weld with a torch,Hope This helpsLarryTry not use $10.00 worth of time on $.10 job!!Miller BobcatThaks for the replies guys.  As far as equipment goes, the shop is full as it is.  I don't really have any room for any more O/A equipment and the school doesn't really prefer we use it based on it being so dangerous.  I have one cart that sits in the corner of the shop that we use a rosebud on.  I just want the kids to be able to learn how to run a bead and to put a couple of pieces of material together in different positions.  They do a wood working skill and we repair, refinish and paint in the class as well.  We also have a metals class that the students can take and build there own projects.  I am looking for a good arc welding skill I can turn a student loose on that will really help them to become proficient and running beads. I get spread pretty thin when we have 6 booths going and two students in each booth.  I can see why the one reply on here stated they shut down the shop because the students wanted to build weapons and chinese stars. That is a constant battle.  For whatever reason students that take these courses think they are going to walk in the first day, put on a welding helmet and weld everyday.  The truth of the matter is, you get them started welding and most of them weld a week to two weeks and quit on it because they have no desire to continue.  It is really easy to tell who wants to learn to weld and who took a class because they thought they were getting out of book work.
Reply:I bought a Craftsmen 230 amp AC buzzbox when I was 17 and taught myself, reflecting on the local blacksmith's technique as I watched him make repairs to our farm equipment. I also learned a lot from years of back issues of Lincoln's Stabilizer I got from a family friend.  That's when I ordered the bible, the Procedure Handbook of Arc Welding, also from Lincoln.I took up Uncle Sam's college offer after my 4 years in the Navy.  Part of Penn State's Mechanized Agriculture course is Ag Engineering 005 welding lab, 2 hour sessions, twice a week.  We used Lincoln Idealarc 250's to weld mild steel coupons starting off with 7014 rods using AC, downhand.  The powdered iron flux makes dragging this rod a cinch.  I found out half way through the course that the majority of the students wanted to be teachers not weldors, and Ag Eng 005 was required for their curriculum.  None had previous experience like I did.  (Maybe that's why I scored the highest grade in the class without buying the testbook.  Or why the other students were thankful when the instructor said he would NOT be grading on the curve!)We also made oxy-fuel welds with and without filler metal (coathangers) and cut 1\2" mild steel plates.  No mig or tig welders at all except for the 2 that the College of Agricultures' maintenance men used to repair school equipment.I am convinced that 7014 rods are the easiest for the rank newby to learn on, once they get over their fear of the electric arc.  Having your students learn on humidity-soaked low-hydrogen rods is doing them a disservice.Last edited by 69 chevy; 07-20-2007 at 11:57 AM.WeldingWeb forum--now more sophomoric banter than anything else!
Reply:Originally Posted by WelderBoyWrite your name?  That's an odd project.  Did you have to follow a soapstone mark or anything?
Reply:The Kids that went to Kilgore and were good at welding went on a SKILS welding conpetition where you had to do everything from oxy/acte welding to flux-core, hard wire, TIG, Stick. I dont know if your school does the same thing but they taught ones like me that already had experiance welding to fine tune it my suggestion is to start them out welding 6011 uphill since most of your welding places wont allow you to weld down hill. I know its hard at first but if you can get them to do that it will help them out more than any thing. But thats just my oppion it your BBQ, your callAmerican By Birth, Texan By The Grace Of God.I Guess I just Don't Belong Without A Jukebox and A Country Song.Member Of the American Honky Tonk Bar AssotiationSEMPER FI
Reply:maybe this question is a little lame... But the rods that are being discussed, What make are they?,What Ø do they have, are they Basic or Rutile coated?, Ect.Oh i got it... its the AWS number? or?Because the rods i use at the moment have AWS A5.1-04: E7016Last edited by HGHS-Corp; 07-22-2007 at 02:30 AM.¤If you got money, i've got time
Reply:yes these are the aws classification.  The first two digits in the tensile strength, the third is the position it can be used in, and the fourth is other characteristics such as flux composition, etc...   Hope this is what you were refering to....I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Gocanes.... I don't see the problem with teaching your student MIG prior to teaching them SMAW. If you were to teach them MIG at first they would have a much better understanding of what the arc is doing when they went to SMAW. Also One thing you can do.... and I've said this many times, have your students begin running flat stringers.... after they get to a point where they are showing consistency begin to increase the angle of the plate working toward welding at 90 degs.. After that you can work toward over head by doing the same thing. In the end your program needs to be designed to spark (no pun intended) the interests of the kids. Kids (especially now days) become easily discouraged, give them something they can get a grip on with relative ease. Kids need to see fast results. Once they see the creative expression welding will allow them to have and how they can actually build things....... their interest will peak and they will WANT to put in the effort._________________Chris
Reply:This is only my opinion but I'd have to say start with stick. I believe it's too easy too miss the correct setting and still turn out a good looking weld with mig. They will put too much emphasis on the appearance and learn bad habits too easily with mig. Once you learn control with stick it readily translates itself to the other types of electrical welding. The majority of the kids you would see in a high school course are going to be there because they think it's an easier class to tolerate than many of their other choices. That said I believe you owe it to them too make them familiar with whatever you're teaching but these aren't the ones that will stay with it. A teachers reward is getting a few kids that welding actually sparks an interest in. Those are the ones you acually get to teach, they want to learn it. You can make a welder out of them, for the others it's more like a familiarization.BTW; to answer the topic title, no, my school didn't offer a metals class, carpentry only. I learned on the job with 7018 after I hung my tool belt up.Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:Originally Posted by WelderBoyNope.  They stopped the metal class years before I got into high school because kids were making ninja stars and other weapons.I learned in college.
Reply:The reason I suggest teaching MIG first (I learned stick before MIG and oxy acet welding before stick, just so you know), especially at a high school level is because, for one the kids are not paying to be there..... this is a course most are taking to satisfy the school requirements. With that said, most are not there learning this for work, some are there because they have an interest in this field as a job but they're employer isn't shelling out the money so there is no real sense of having to "learn" outside of how far someone will push oneself. For these reasons and others, I think you would get a more genuine interest from the kids if they grasp the concept with a bit more ease. MIG also allows the welder a much clearer view of what is happening at the arc. How it washes and ties in. how angles effects the bead. You can see the bead cool because there is no flux covering, not as much smoke. Let's say after the kids demonstrate that they can run a flat bead with relative consistency. You have the kids make a 3-D, 6 sided cube as a project. Have them make a set of dice out of 2x2 or 3x3 pieces, all outside corner joints. First off they will have an easier time tacking up the cube with MIG than SMAW. It will be a hell of a lot easier to for them to weld the outside corners without blowing through, and if they do the holes will be easier to fill as well. The kid gets it all welded up, grinds all the corners smooth, finishes the faces with spot welds for numbers dots. This kid now has something they made, they can hold in their hands, take it show it to whoever they want. That is what I feel gets the creative juices flowing, because the ones who actually have a sense of pride in what they made will look at their dice and start to wonder... "What else can I make?" "What needs to be fixed at home?"Let's face it too..... any of these students who try to get a summer job or a part time job after school are going to be applying to small welding shops and I would be willing to bet that they will have a greater need for the MIG process than SMAW. Although SMAW is a process I feel a welder must be able to perform I also know that this process is very rarely used in an indoor shop and more than likely the kid will start off tacking more than anything. Do your students a favor, teach them the process that you feel will benefit them them the most at this point in their life. Call around to local welding shops, tell them who you are, what you do and ask them what process they are running the most. I'm not saying not to show them SMAW, because there will be kids who advance faster than others. The idea is get them interested in the first place.Just my $.02_________________Chris
Reply:I like that dice idea lorenzo.
Reply:Originally Posted by WelderBoyNope.  They stopped the metal class years before I got into high school because kids were making ninja stars and other weapons.I learned in college.
Reply:Originally Posted by tresiWe made lots "large bushing" and " hay wagon axles" in metals II. We were smart enough not to assemble them into really neat cannons until we got them home.
Reply:Any of you guys have any arc welding skills that you were required to complete?  The only skill I ever had growing up was to weld passes on a piece of plate.  running beads all the way across the plate and then welding more beads on top of the ones we just completed.
Reply:Originally Posted by gocanes719Any of you guys have any arc welding skills that you were required to complete?  The only skill I ever had growing up was to weld passes on a piece of plate.  running beads all the way across the plate and then welding more beads on top of the ones we just completed.
Reply:ive pretty much tought myself.  experimenting, not catching myself on fire, that sort of stuff=)Last edited by LSX89RS; 07-26-2007 at 02:42 PM.
Reply:No - our large school (600 kids in teh graduating class) did not offer a metal shop.  I think that kids should be required to sit through a 1 hour orientation for each of the vocational classes before they decline the offer to take them.  I am constantly amazed at how many settle for so much less because they have preconceptions about vocations that they could happily fill.I didn't teach myself to weld until I was 40 and I regret not having tried to build the skill sooner.Hobart LX235Victor 250 Oxy-Acetylene Rig (welding and cutting)Bobcat 773F-350, 1999, 4x4, 16' 10K# trailerOutdoor Wood Burner - 10 cords/year
Reply:my best friends dad taught me to stick when I was 9 years old, & I still use an engine lift I built when I was 13, & it has pulled over 1,000 motors.when I took welding in school I already knew how to stick & I also knew how to torch so teacher worked with me on tig.Mig is what I had the hardest problem learning, I was 22 before I could do quality mig welds. now I am just trying to re-learn stick its been 15 years+ since I really stick welded.my vote is to have every kid try all processes & let them decide which one they want to concentrate on. in college all I wanted to do was TIG. but had to force myself to learn MIG. now I am most comfortable with MIG, & torch, but pretty rough with everything else.as for making weapons in school.... whats the problem?????? in my day almopst every male student carried a pocket knife or bowie knife on their side, when I went to school kids were lined up to make guns in machine shop, both high school & college. teachers made sure no gun left without the barrel being rifled. it was a crime to have a smooth barrel under 18 inches long, in college I made a 15 round clip for my 25 that I carried with me everyday through college. 1 student made a longer barrel for his semi auto & threaded it for a silencer he also made in shop class. I bought my first gun in school in 9th grade, a 32 semi auto, & my teacher thought it was cool. we traded guns all the time in school, including trading with teachers, janitors, & other faculity, it was great. so what happened to the system? I graduated from high school in 1986, & went to college 8 years. & almost never went a day without a gun & saw guns all the time. it was accepted....... now its taboo? hell I remember saying hi to our principal & walking by with a pistol & going behind the school to test fire in the bank behind the school. MAN HOW THINGS HAVE CHANGED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Later,RandyMiller 140Campbell Hausfield migVictor torch outfitBlue Point torch setSmith torch with vintage Airco regulatorsVictor type A torch setHobart pipelinerLincoln Ranger 9Lincoln 225 tombstone