Bought a used Hobart Handler 175 - am i expecting too much?

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I recently picked up a Hobart 175, bought a C25 setup and have been practicing. Previously i've used a no name, very cheap 110V welder (gas) and had poor results on anything other than sheet metal.I call Metal Supermarkets and ordered a length of 2" wide 3/16th steel and 1/8th as well. Had them shear it into 6" lengths so i could practice.Initially had large problems with decent penetration on the 1/8" and eventually discovered the welder was setup for flux (DCEN?) even though the fellow was using a gas setup (might have been why he sold it!). I reversed polarity and immediately things improved. 1/8" was now ok so i moved on to 3/16. I tried it with no gap and had trouble getting decent penetration (welder at highest voltage and wire speed at "80" with .035 wire). Welds looked pretty but pretty doesn't matter (yet).Next try was with a small gap of maybe 1/16". I got better penetration but still not right through. I started playing with wire speed next with the same gap. Didn't improve things at all. Seemed like the wire speed was pretty good the first time.Next i went for a gap approaching 1/8" - then things went bad (duh). Blowing holes through the edges etc.I know pictures are required - i'm ordering more "tickets" tomorrow to practice and will take pics as i go along.Any preliminary advice would be appreciated.Thanks!!!!Scott
Reply:Is this the manual for that machine?http://www.hobartwelders.com/om/0900/o944g_hob.pdfLooking at the chart it's close in settings for my MM185. For 3/16" you want to be at "3", wire feed at about 80. I'd gap the pieces by about 3/32" roughly and tack them or bevel the plate slightly on both sides to thin the joint. On a butt weld you won't punch tru plate that thickness with that machine with the pieces butted up tight.I could do it with an 1/8" gap, but I'd need to watch the edges close and probably do a very small weave betwen the two plates as I go to keep from melting the edges back too much and span the gap. It's easier to show than explain..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Hey Scott,You may want to try some .030 instead of .035. I get superb results with it up thru 3/16".DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:I use .030 exclusively on my HH 175.  On the Lincoln, I use .023.  I've also found out the Hobart has a more agressive arc, where the Lincoln has a softer arc.  Both weld just fine.  My Hobart will do 1/4" maxed out with decent penetration & up to an 1/8" gap.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Hi DSWThat is indeed the correct manual.I continued playing around with settings last night and switched over to .030" wire. Followed the info in the manual (voltage 4, wire speed 85) and with a 1/16 gap nearly achieved full penetration but consistency was an issue (which would be MY issue, not the machines!). It's still not great but I haven't tried bevelling each edge yet - I'll give that a shot tonight.Some more info on the machine. The ground clamp was a mess when I bought it so first thing was a new ground clamp. I bought a typical clamp - stamped steel with a copper strap connecting the two halves. I'm thinking this thing might not be helping me and seems kind of crappy.I also note that after welding at full power on and off for 15 minutes or longer, the gun starts getting pretty warm as does the ground cable and when I open the door to check the spool, the positive and negative wires that connect the transformer to the gun lead and the ground lead are quite warm (maybe even hot). Is this normal? Wires look great and i've undone the connections, cleaned the contacts and tightened it all up again.Hi yorkiepapSwitching to .030 did seem to help a little. Maybe the Hobart's getting stressed with the .035?Hi MarkBall2Is the aggressive arc you've noted an issue with arc stability? I've noticed the arc on the Hobart seems a little ragged at times. Maybe a ground issue for me?Scott
Reply:A better ground clamp and heavier gauge secondary cables(the work and electrode leads) may help and will never hurt.15 minutes of continuous welding 1/8" and 3/16" steel is certainly pushing the duty cycle on that hobart handler 175. I'm not implying that it's a bad machine.  It's a good machine, but if you look in the manual I think you'll find that the duty cycle is only 20% at the rated output.  That's 2 minutes at the rated output followed by 8 minutes of cool down time.  So your warm cables and gun are probably not unusual.  There should be a thermal overload safety built into the machine.I think the miller and hobart power supplies do have a slightly more agressive arc than others.  That's they way they build them.  But one man's agressive arc is another man's poor arc stability.  Can't say what you're experiencing by reading about it over the internet.  Try following the duty cycle recommendations and putting a high quality solid bronze ground clamp on the machine.  Use a grinder to make a patch of clean, bright steel on your work piece where you want to attach the ground clamp.  I'll be this improves your arc starts dramaticly and smooths out the performance of the machine.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:The "hot" arc is just the difference between the two machines.  The Lincoln will burn through 1/8" material just as quick as the Hobart, it's just different.Heavier metal I like using my Hobart, that's why I have it spooled with .030 wire.  And the ground/work leads do get quite warm when using the upper settings.  I think Hobart cheaped out on the ground lead somewhat.  The Lincoln uses a similar sized lead, but I don't use it to weld metal much thicker than 1/8", so haven't noticed the lead getting hot.On thinner metal the Lincoln is a bit easier to control due to the softer arc.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:now with pictures...crappy Blackberry pictures.1st pic - the top weld was in 3/16, partly bevelled edge, 1/16" gap, voltage "4", wire speed "80" with .030 wire. First part blew through, second part wasn't too bad, third part had poor penetration (tried going just a little faster). I can replicate the second weld - does it appear to be OK?Remainder of pics show practice, ground clamp and my very used welder!Scott Attached ImagesMIG, Hobart Handler 175
Reply:just a thought have you checked to make sure the polarity is set of for gas and not flux core.  Just a shot in the dark.  that clamp will do fine I have burned Several Hundred Lbs of mig wire with the same exact clamp on a Hobart HandlerHypertherm PM 1000 on a CNC TableMiller Maxtron 450 - S52A series feederHobart Handler Lincoln 155 (my sons he's 11)looking to sell or Trade a RFC-23A foot pedalCustom diesel parts fabricator
Reply:It's a bit tough to tell with the crappy pict, but the 2nd weld has promise. I think you'd have a bit better luck if the gap was a tad bit wider, say 3/32" instead of 1/16".  Often with a small gap the heat of the weld will close up the gap as you go along. Thats fine if you've got a machine with the punch to burn thru, but when you don't you have to compensate a bit with your prep. The kids find this out fast when they do their 3/8" bevel plates. Anything under 3/32" and they usually don't get 100% penetration as they move along, as the gap closes up. The 2nd weld shows some inconsistencies, but it's hard to tell in the picts exactly whats going on. I'm not sure if the drop thru is your hesitating a bit, or if it's the result of you burning thru a bit much at the start before the plate closes up.  I'd suggest running another dozen or so like that, concentrating on going as uniformly as possible thru the whole weld. Thats basically what we have the kids at the tech school do until they can get 3 or 4 back to back consistently good welds. It's all about practice and repetition. Usually we have them do 4 separate coupons and then cool them. Then they weld the coupons together on the unwelded sides so they get another 3 beads on the same metal. I'd also suggest you run beads at least 6" long so you can actually get a rhythm going and it's not start/stop..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Instead of trying to weld this butt joint out in a single, somewhat uncontrollable, hot pass try giving  two passes a try. Bevel your pieces to leave you around a 1/16" land. Then tack them up with around a 3/32" root opening. Run a stringer bead root pass. I'd start out trying tap #2 for this root pass. If you get to much backside root penetration, you may need to try tap #1. After the root pass try running a cover pass with tap #3. If you get to much weld bead reinforcement try tap #2  or pick up the pace with Tap #3.ESAB Migmaster 250 Hobart Ironman 230Multimatic 215TWECO Fabricator 181i & 211iHH125EZ - nice little fluxcore only unitMaxstar 150 STH - very nice
Reply:Ok, here goesTo learn to use a machine, or even to learn how to weld.............Forget about butt jointsFirst off, run some flat stringers. I tgives you a feel for the processThen, start running fillets..........The fillets develop your travel speed, puddle recognition, puddle control, etc.I had some somewhat spectacular difficulties with MIG.  But I was able to run some reasonably decent welds just using the experience I've had with stick and flux core.  In other words.........I could sorta weld blind.  I CANNOT SEE CRAP WITH MIGSo skip the butt joints for now, learn to control the puddle, then go back to the flat butt joints.  Butts require a totally different technique anyhow, and will be the least type of welding you will do.  By in large, the bulk of welding is fillets"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Pic 5 shows the settings of Tap 3 & 80 wire speed.  That's about the right settings for 3/16" steel.Oh yeah, what Samm says is true.  Try a lap weld or fillet weld first.  Then the butt welds.  Butt's have a totally different technique.  Using a back step helps keep things flat, but that's another story.One thing I noticed different between my two welders, the Hobart (with it's hotter arc), you have to be ready to move like RIGHT NOW!  The Lincoln with the softer arc you can take your time & allow the metal to heat up before you move.  MIG will always start cold & need time to heat up the metal.That said, maybe keep the tap setting at #3 & decrease the wire speed to around 60 & move a bit slower.  This will allow the metal to heat up to proper temp.  If you are still blowing through, decrease the wire speed a bit more.  Around 40 wire speed, the wire will start piling up & not penetrating, so that's probably too low.Moving a bit slower with my Hobart helps increase penetration & allows me a bit more control.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Here's the welding test to compare the Lincoln -vs- Hobart welders.  The photos start about half way down the page, both Hobart welds & Lincoln welds including settings.  Most of the material was 1/8"http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=29514&page=2MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Wow - thanks for all the comments and advice!I'm going to get more steel today to practice with. Is the general opinion that I should stick with .030 wire with the Hobart? I have .035 available as well.Does anyone have any pics showing 1/8" - 3/16" butt welding that shows both sides so i can see what a good consistent penetrating weld looks like?Thanks, ScottMIG, Hobart Handler 175
Reply:Scott,For the material thickness you're practicing on .030 would be my recommendation.I agree too, a butt joint is not the best joint to start out with. The easiest weld joint to start out on is probably a flat lap joint, so this would be my recommendation of joint design to start out with in your next practice session. Also, MIG performs much better on bright shiny metal, so I suggest taking the time to remove the mill scale off your practice pieces at least in the weld zone region.I am attaching a couple sample flat lap joints for you, so you might be able to get an idea of the bead placement. Attached ImagesESAB Migmaster 250 Hobart Ironman 230Multimatic 215TWECO Fabricator 181i & 211iHH125EZ - nice little fluxcore only unitMaxstar 150 STH - very nice
Reply:+1 on doing lap welds for your practice.+1 on using 0.030 solid wire with that machine and material thickness you are working on.+1 on cleaning the metal to clean and shiny steel before welding.  Because you really can't weld oil or grease or paint or rust or mill scale or etc.  Solvent clean grease and oil off (make sure the solvent is completely gone/dry before welding!!!!!)  and then grind (grinding wheel or flap disk are my usual choice, a wire wheel is only used to get light surface rust off or some such because a wire wheel usually won't really remove mill scale) until the metal is clean and shiny.  Maybe another spritz with some solvent to get any grinding dust/crud off.btw, nice welds (like usual) Dan.    Nice and consistent and smoooooth beads.  It's like you've done this once or twice before, eh?      And that wrap-around of the bead on the T-configured lap weld (Pic #2 in Post #16)  is veeery nice indeed.Scott, a lap joint is a good one to learn and practice on because:- unlike just running some beads onto the top of a flat piece of metal, it is a 'real' weld joint and is really joining two pieces of metal together and not just piling weld filler on top of a piece of plate/sheet;- it is easier and more forgiving than trying to do a butt joint;- it is easier to lap two pieces of metal together than it usually is to hold them in a T aka filet configuration YMMV;- it gives you a visual edge to follow;- and it a double thickness of metal (pretty much) where you are running the weld bead which makes it easier to avoid blowing holes right through a single-layer of metal like on a butt weld and also lets you watch the puddle (you -are- watching the puddle of molten metal that is being formed as you weld and not the BrightLight of the arc, right?    ) as it melts into the base metal and then fills up as the filler electrode fills the joint and makes the weld bead.Usually doing some lap welds on 1/8 inch thick steel is a good starting point because of the lap joint (see above) and because 1/8 inch steel is thick enough to let you see a puddle and let it form a bit (unlike welding on some thin sheet metal) and yet not so thick that the class of machine you are using can't get enough heat into the weld to actually -make- a decent weld   (don't try doing GMAW aka MIG onto some 3/8 inch+ steel with a little 120V 120-140 amp class machine, etc, etc).The steel 'ground' clamp is probably fine since it has the copper braid strap connecting both jaws electrically.  Just make sure that the clamp is clamping onto clean shiny steel on the piece you are welding.And 15 mintes of pretty continuous welding with that class/type of machine at the amperage (100+ amps) probably -will- heat up the cables at least somewhat because that usage is probably up there from a duty-cycle standpoint.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:OKI did several practice/test welds and am now a believer in prep. I completely ground a few coupons all around, attached the ground clamp and welded. I then grabbed 2 coupons, wiped them off, attached the clamp and welded. The weld looked OK but no serious penetration happened.I also learned that it's hard to keep the pace steady. I also need a proper height table and full leathers; dancing around while small balls of boiling hot metal have gone inside my left shoe is not fun..though i'm sure my wife would have thought it was pretty funny!I took several pictures (some front and back) and noted settings on the pieces.I'm really flying through these coupons - costs me $32 for 2 10ft lengths, sheared to 6" (2" wide x 1/8 and 2" wide x 3/16) and almost went through half of them tonight alone.I'll post pics tomorrow.Thanks again for all the help.ScottMIG, Hobart Handler 175
Reply:The example welds post #16, are in the "not in my wildest dreams" kinda welds.  NICE"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:They're so nice, I'm "touching" myself as we speak"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:.................................. Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Here's a few pics from last night... Attached ImagesMIG, Hobart Handler 175
Reply:And some more... Attached ImagesMIG, Hobart Handler 175
Reply:The manual states I should be using setting 4 and a wire speed of 80 for 3/16". Generally when I use setting 4 for voltage it's a pretty intense arc with appreciably more spatter. Setting 3 seems more smooth and easier to control.ScottMIG, Hobart Handler 175
Reply:I use to own a HH 175. If I remember correctly the door chart was pretty much useless.For a flat or horizontal lap or T joint on 1/8" or 3/16" I remember always using tap #3 when running an .030 or .035 solid wire with C25. BTW, my preference is to push the weld puddle. Mostly because the weld puddle wets out better when you push it then when you pull it.Save tap #4 for when you decide to practice on 1/4".Also, my recommendation of an .030 wire was based on the fact that you are practicing on 1/8" and 3/16". If you decide to practice strictly on 3/16", give the .035 a try.ESAB Migmaster 250 Hobart Ironman 230Multimatic 215TWECO Fabricator 181i & 211iHH125EZ - nice little fluxcore only unitMaxstar 150 STH - very niceYour 3/60 1/8" T joint has quite a bit of crown to it, which suggests to me that you pulled the puddle. Attached are a couple T joints I ran on 1/8" pushing the puddle. Notice how the weld puddle wet out better to the toes of the weld . Attached ImagesESAB Migmaster 250 Hobart Ironman 230Multimatic 215TWECO Fabricator 181i & 211iHH125EZ - nice little fluxcore only unitMaxstar 150 STH - very nice
Reply:I did pull in fact. I'll try pushing tonight.ScottMIG, Hobart Handler 175
Reply:Slag = DragMIG = PushGenerally, if the welding process produces slag (SMAW aka stick or FCAW aka flux-core aka 'stick-turned-inside-out) then DRAG the puddle.For MIG aka GMAW aka solid wire, PUSH the puddle (point the torch/gun in the SAME direction as you are advancing the weld bead).  Right-handed welder would thus typically start on the right side of the joint/seam and point the gun/torch from right-to-left and advance the weld bead from right-to-left as well.Again Dan, some pretty nice welds.  And pictures of the welds as well.    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:As an aside, i've been wanting to build a welding table and as luck would have it, we've got some large free steel at my work.The problem is it's rather massive.I've got a sheet of 1/2" steel (42" x 30") and 12, 55" lengths of 4" x 2" x 3/8" angle. I know it's a overkill but it's hard to pass up when it's free.The question is, when i get better at welding, can my Hobart 175 manage this with lots of prep and multiple passes?ScottMIG, Hobart Handler 175
Reply:most of these guys are gonna tell you that 1/2" is not overkill by any means for a table.  infact most are gonna tell you that 1/2 is the minimum thickness and will recommend 3/4" to even 1" is ideal.  I say grab it and growl man free plate like that dont come around very often, for me anyway.  And yes your welder should do ok with it, it is a stretch but if you get a good bevel and prep you should be fine.  Do a good root bead then make a couple pass to fill it in and cap itHypertherm PM 1000 on a CNC TableMiller Maxtron 450 - S52A series feederHobart Handler Lincoln 155 (my sons he's 11)looking to sell or Trade a RFC-23A foot pedalCustom diesel parts fabricator
Reply:3/8" angle will need beveled at the joints & multiple passes.  Depending on how much bevel you put on it, will depend on how many passes.  Root & 1 more pass should be ok & don't bevel all the way to the opposite side.  Bevel it enough to leave about 1/2 the base metal, then leave a gap of around 2 widths of your wire (.060-.070)  Make sure to tack it on the corners & then after tacked, weld solid.  Remember, push & have all the dials maxed out on the thicker metal.The top won't need a continuous bead, just a 1-2" bead every foot or so.  No real need to bevel it, the weight will help hold it to the framework.  The welds will prevent the top from sliding around.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:For a table that won't see heavy use that machine will be fine. I wouldn't use it on critical stuff that thick however..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:3/8" material is when you switch that HH 175 over to an E71T-11 self shielded fluxcore wire to take advantage of its hotter arc, and deeper penentration characteristics. If you choose to use an E71T-11 wire stay away from Lincoln's NR-211 MP, because it has a max recommended limit of 5/16". Hobart Fabshield 21B is a very nice running wire. The farm store Hobart brand E71T-11 seems to be a pretty good running wire too.ESAB Migmaster 250 Hobart Ironman 230Multimatic 215TWECO Fabricator 181i & 211iHH125EZ - nice little fluxcore only unitMaxstar 150 STH - very nice
Reply:Nobody has pointed these out clearly but if you stick to these dimensions for your mig welds you will get the most from your machine without overwelding, have good weld layout also saving filler and labour, and peace of mind, their are exceptions to these layouts and minimum thickness, but are good guidelines for you, AWS is also a good source for proper layout.Excepts from Welding Priciples and Practices;Third Edition welding text. Attached Images
Reply:Well I started cutting the angle iron last night for the table and practiced on the offcuts. The angle is actually a hair thinner than 5/16".I made a 45 degree angle and bevelled the short sides leaving about 1/8" square.I then tacked the join in 4 locations.I used setting 4, wire speed 60 and laid down a root pass in the bevel. I checked the backside and had good penetration (actually too much in one spot - started to drool through). I then did a root pass on the outside corner but went to setting 3, wire speed 70 and it looked pretty good. I then went back to the bevelled edge and did 2 more passes at setting 4, wire speed 70, one pass on each side of the bevel. End result looked pretty good! I plan on beating the crap out of it tonight with a sledgehammer and i'll see just how much penetration really happened.Thanks again for all the help. It's too bad there aren't any local welders on this board - would be great to have someone with more experience come over and give me some pointers while I'm actually welding.ScottMIG, Hobart Handler 175
Reply:I've seen a great many posts on this forum about the proper travel angle for MIG vs. FCAW vs. SMAW(stick)Almost universally, the members here recommend pushing a MIG puddle.  This has always seemed strange to me.  I use a drag travel angle almost all the time, unless I'm having issues with burn through or I can't physically get the MIG gun into a drag position(e.g.  inside corner fillet welds with limited access).This most recent posting finally prompted me to dig out my Hobart training manuals for GMAW(MIG).My training at Hobart required using a 15-30° drag travel angle while MIG welding fillets or open root joints in any position, any travel direction(left right up down).  Training was done on 3/16" and 1/2" plate.  The only exceptions to using a drag travel angle were:  1- overhead fillets were run with 5-10° drag angle, and 2 - MIG welds on 16 gauge(flat lap and fillet joints).  Pushing the puddle was an option on this thinner material.I was taught that a drag travel angle with MIG produces better penetration and less spatter.  A push angle produces less penetration and a flatter crown(all other things being equal)Choice of technique should depend on the task and the desired result, and the welder's skill level.I'm not saying that you can't/shouldn't use a push angle.  There are plenty of fabricators here  (ZTFab comes to mind) that can produce a quality weld every time with a variety of techniques.What I am trying to say is that the choice of dragging the puddle or pushing the puddle depends on several things:Thick or thin base metal?Sensitivity to spatter/need for cleanup?Desired penetration (which is tied to base metal thickness and joint design)Desired bead profile-  concave or flat beads don't always give the best mechanical properties. A slightly convext bead is usually better.Joint orientation and type.If you're going to recommend just a push technique for a beginner to use, make sure to tell them that you're giving them the bare minimum; just one option.  Once they've gained some experience there are more factors to consider. Originally Posted by MoonRiseSlag = DragMIG = PushGenerally, if the welding process produces slag (SMAW aka stick or FCAW aka flux-core aka 'stick-turned-inside-out) then DRAG the puddle.For MIG aka GMAW aka solid wire, PUSH the puddle (point the torch/gun in the SAME direction as you are advancing the weld bead).  Right-handed welder would thus typically start on the right side of the joint/seam and point the gun/torch from right-to-left and advance the weld bead from right-to-left as well.Again Dan, some pretty nice welds.  And pictures of the welds as well.