does this really make a difference

admin

im a carpenter in the union. while i buy the best tools i can afford for my personal tools (metabo, bosch, hilti etc) i am not one to say "i will not use dewalt bc its made in mexico" or "im not using that hilti recip saw its made in china". i just want my foreman to tell me wht i gotta do and go use a powertool that works and is suited for the job. i dont care whose name is on it. now if your good at what i can do, you can make anything work. does it really matter if its a lincoln or miller or dare i say a chinesse machine? if you can weld on a millermatic 140 why cant you weld on a northern tool mig 135? whats the big difference? as much as im for made in america i wont knock something till i try it.if im in my garage and im making a light bar for my truck or a bumper and i have a miller, a lincoln and a northern tool welder sitting ready to go and they are all suited for the job im not care which one i grab as long as it works...now if you do welding for a living on the side this doesnt apply to you. then you need the miller. you need something that wont fail through harsh use. but a mig that sits untouched in a garage for auto use or light fab i dont see much of a big difference. keep in mind im talking about everlast and northern tool...not $100 machines.the grand ol' opry aint so grand anymoremiller maxstar 150sworking on an oxy/acet set up
Reply:A welding machine is a welding is a welding machine... or is it...?    The answer is... yes... sort of.  You can use just about any machine, within it's operating capabilities, and get the job done satisfactorily.  However, when you have used quite a few different machines and done alot of different welding, you get to prefer a certain arc characteristic or a certain torch or type of consumables and then you use whichever machines satisfy those wants, as well as other needs.   I much prefer the very soft arc and fluid puddle of my Passport and HTP migs and the adjustable arcs of my XMT and 350P machines to the stiff arc of my Milermatic 175 and the Millermatic 180, 211 and 250 machines I have welded with.  The MM 210, 212, 251 and 252 machines I have welded with dont seem to have as stiff an arc as the others.  I use my Millermatic 175 alot, probly more than the 350P, and it welds fine and gets the job done, but it's not my favorite machine to weld with.  The Passport really makes me smile and is the mig machine I use the most of on the truck.  Same thing with stick welding.  I like stick welding with the XMT, PowCon and Dialarc and the CST's I've used.  I'm not real big on stick welding with my TA185 or the Bobcat all that much.  They all work and get the job done, and I don't mind welding with any of them, there are just things about some of them that make them 'better' for me.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:You're probably right to a certain extent. The hobbyist doesnt really notice the difference in quality between miller machine or a chinese built machine. Not a knock on them. I don't really see the need for snap-on tools in my garage. I'm not a professional mechanic and for what I'm doing whatever socket set I have from some box store works fine. Whatever trade people are in they tend to get anal about the quality of tools they use. Just the way it is.
Reply:I'm not picky when I am at work and they supply me tools to use I have killed 6 harbor freight angle grinders before the last one got me hurt and they bought a nice one. I personally will only buy quailty tools if it is something I am going to use more then once. Shindaiwa leaf blower stihl chainsaws and trimmer but I am not going to spend top dollar if it is a speciality tool like a slap hammer I bought from harbor frieght and have used twice in 6 years. I have a makita 18 volt drill kit at work made in China and it has lasted years, have two matabo grinders that have out lasted many dewalts and hitachis.
Reply:you pretty much answered your question in your last post "went through about 6 harbor freight grinders till one got ya hurt and they bought a nice one"  You buy good tools becasue you depend on them and need them to be reliable and dont want to have to buy them over and over again.  Welders are the same yes its like buying a CAT tractor your paying some for the name.  But with the tool your paying for reliability and longevity.  As mentioned most Hobby guys can get along with any tool what ever the trade may be but when you depend on it, its gotta be ready to work when you are.  Down time cost ya more than the good tool woud have.  Ex  when I was restarting my shop I needed a little cheap Plasma machine so I didnt have to keep switching my Hypertherm (name brand) back and forth from the CNC.  So I bought a $500 Ramsond, well it has about 30-45 min total use on it and already replaced on board in it now when I press the trigger it blows arcs inside and catches on fire ( an actual flame) so If I were dependant on it I would have been shut down for at least a week waiting for parts or a new machine.  My Hypertherm was $3K but it has Hours and Hours and Hours of cutting on it and she fires everytime never given me a problem (knock on wood).  Also there is a difference in the Quality of the arc of a good welder vs a No name unit.  If your learning to weld Get a good machine Lincoln, Miller, Hobart and learn the correct way with a correct machine that will be of use for years to come.  I just bought a Miller Maxtron 450 that is 15 yrs old wired it up turned it on and started welding plus if something happens I can still find parts for it.  Depending on what class machine your looking for 110 or 220 if a 110 is in your line the 140 Hobart Handler is an awesome little Beast that can be had from tractor supply for around $400 I have one in my shop now for thinner stuff (it will weld up to 1/4" Steel with the right prep) but I have burnt hundreds of pounds of wire with it and wouldnt take the price of a new one for itHypertherm PM 1000 on a CNC TableMiller Maxtron 450 - S52A series feederHobart Handler Lincoln 155 (my sons he's 11)looking to sell or Trade a RFC-23A foot pedalCustom diesel parts fabricator
Reply:[quote=outlawskinnyd;416097]... does it really matter if its a lincoln or miller or dare i say a chinesse machine? if you can weld on a millermatic 140 why cant you weld on a northern tool mig 135? whats the big difference? QUOTE]The big difference? Quality control and support. If you are having erratic feeding issues, is it because the machine is "broken" or just because you pulled the short straw and got the machine with all the sloppy parts installed? With small migs, it seams the guys with imports have more issues with erratic wire feeds than those with "name brand" machines. Coincidence?The next issue is parts and repairs/ Take a look at all the threads on "how do i fix my import?", "where can I find this part or that for my no brand machine?", " I bought this  multi function machine and it arrived DOA and I can get the company to respond to my phone calls or emails", "I've been waiting 6 months for a part for my "new" import machine..." In 5 years where will you find parts for your Clarke Mig since they went belly up? Want to bet if I asked where do I find part X for my 1950's SA200 I get 6 to 8 posts with in 24 hrs suggesting who to call for new or used parts? How about parts for a late 80's Miller tig? I'll bet I can get most of what I'd need without having to build it myself like many do with their HF units.You'll notice that when theres an issue with a name brand machine, the 1st thing usually posted is the link to the manual. 2nd is a suggestion as to who may have the parts in stock, both new, used and rebuilt. 3rd is usually a reply by several of the factory certified techs/ home rebuilders on the board on exactly where to look to find the bad parts, since they've seen most "normal" wear and tear issues. 4th often guys have the factory repair manuals and are willing to fax/email/snailmail them to the OP.The other thing is you mention is Originally Posted by outlawskinnydnow if your good at what i can do, you can make anything work....
Reply:Wow I made a reply to this and it disappeared...MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:In My opinion with B grade imports you pay your money and hope that they are good enough for occasional use, but with import welders thats a whole different story. I have many non welder co workers go out and buy an import welder and ask me to come over and show them how to weld. Those things are so hard to weld with I don't see how anybody could learn to weld with them. I will say that I never tried a Northern welder. So the jury still out on them to me.Tough as nails and damn near as smart
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33Wow I made a reply to this and it disappeared...
Reply:Unless I missed it, in addition to the issues of quality, reliability, parts and tech support, how about buying US (getting pretty hard lately) in an attempt to turn the tide and start keeping jobs here in the states?Put yourself in the shoes of those who have lost their job to a factory in China because we as a society have been willing to sacrifice those things listed above because we can get an obviously inferior item from China for half the price or less?  Would you feel the same way you do about welders if modular homes started showing up on those container ships?MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33Wow I made a reply to this and it disappeared...
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33Wow I made a reply to this and it disappeared...
Reply:Personally, I prefer to buy quality tools.  Just because something is made in a specific place doesn't mean that it is of poor quality, at least not all of the time.  I find that most things engineered in China or most of Asia tend to be poorly created or even often designed to fail, this is pretty common.  I don't know where you are from outlawskinnyd, but personally I feel that there is a bit of patriotism in trying to buying something made by your fellow countrymen.I can promise you this logic is sound though, if you buy something for 5 dollars and it doesn't work well, falls apart after a few weeks of use and you end up buying a few more of that same item, did you come out ahead in any sense if you saved the 5 dollars when you bought it the first time over the 10 dollar item that wasn't going to fall apart when you use it as it was designed to?Stick to the grinder idea when you think about buying -anything-.  What sort of warranty does it include?  Where was it made?  Who made it?  Your best friend is research when it comes to products and companies.  Do a bit of searching on a company online, there are more than a few people willing to speak their mind and say their opinion on something they purchased.Miller 330 a/bp water cooledI believe in gun control, I hold my gun with two hands.  If you want to know why, click here.Buy American or bye America.
Reply:i see where your coming from. i had a convo with a guy this morning at a local welding shop and he answered a lot of questions i had. its 2 different things comparing my tools to a welders tools bc the effects of a misfire on a machines part has 10x more consequences then say a ****ty saw or hammer drill.he convinced me to stick with hobart miller or lincoln.the grand ol' opry aint so grand anymoremiller maxstar 150sworking on an oxy/acet set up
Reply:As far as the China stuff goes, I agree with most of the posters here, a lot of it is garbage and ends up costing you more than it is worth down the road.About thirty years ago, when I was starting out and had very little cash, I found an outlet across the line in Blaine Wa, that sold mostly Tawianese stuff. I loaded up on cheap mechanics tools. About half of these were broken or worn out within a year or two with just occasional use.I will say that the stuff that survived while turned out to be quite good. I have a 1/2 drive impact set from back then that has been indestructable.So overall that stuff was about 50/50 usable. If I had the cash at the time to buy Proto or Snap On, it would have been 100% usable and I'm sure that I would still have all of it, other than the lost items.On the other hand, the import stuff did get me going and allowed me to do my own auto/Cat/Tractor repairs which freed up some money to buy really top notch German/Japanese/Canadian/US woodworking machinery, which made real money for me. I guess the lesson learned is to buy the best you can afford at the time, but having cheap tools, though not great, is almost always better than having no tool at all!I still don't trust any of the Chinese/Tawainese woodworking equipment.I'm like a lot of the older weldors here who know their Miller and Lincoln units will perform, so why take a chance? I suspect that like a lot of the weldors here my info on woodworking machinery is probably a little outdated. There likely are some decent Chinese machines being made now but I'm not about to try them out, I already have all the good old heavy duty machines that I need, why change?Since it is was purchased mainly for personal use, I did take a chance on a Chinese welder, one that had some backup and good reviews(Everlast) and it has been fine so far, can't fault it. I sure don't agree with the poster who said Chinese welders are hard to weld with, I find just the opposite with this machine as compared to a Lincoln 185 or my Miller 230 amp.I'm using it pretty steady, for some reason all of my contacts from my Millwork business have loaded me up with welding jobs. I will be using it pretty much all day every day for the next month or so.It will be interesting to see if it is still working fine in ten years or so.The thing I have noticed is that China is in the midst of big changes to the quality level of many of their manufactured items, much like Japan was in the 60s when the phrase "Japanese Junk" was used a lot.I
Reply:When you're talking about welding machines, you generally get what you pay for.  The competition between Lincoln, Miller, ESAB, Thermal, etc. makes the quality machines very price competetive.If you notice, the majority of the posters "singing the praises" of the Chinese junk, are the guys who are relatively inexperienced in welding to begin with.  These are the guys who are "hoodwinked" into thinking that they "absolutely need" all the bells and whistles to produce quality welds.Nothing could be further from the truth.  Guys who have never tig welded think that the variable frequency, pulse, sequencing, etc, are necessary to achieve basic welds are just fooling themselves and using "bells and whistles" to mask their lack of proficiency.A "cheap" up front price does not relate to "value".  The name brand machines have years of research and testing behind them.  They have "engineers" on staff to help owners with issues.  They have a supply and support system in place to support the user in the event he has problems.  They spend large amounts of money exploring "new technology".Also, being "cheap" initially does not necessarily relate to "lifecycle cost". As an example I'll relate my personal experience with Miller welders.  In 1977 I bought my first Sync 250.  Basic machine cost me about $3000.  Didn't have a bunch of "bells and whistles" (no pulse, no variable freq, no sequencer, etc) but that dang machine produced some great welds.  In 1996, I decided it was time to move up to another welder (original unit still worked fine).  I bought another Syncrowave 250 for about $3,200 and sold my original unit for $1,600.  That machine also produced some fine welds for the next 10 yrs+.  Although it was still welding fine, I sold it in 2008 for $1,800 to buy my next machine.  In 2008 I replaced the 1996 machine with a 2008 Syncrowave 250DX with the pulser (still no sequencer).  That unit produces quality welds every time I turn it on.Over the course of 33 years of using the Miller Syncrowave 250's I've spent less than $500 in maintaining the machines (points, switches, connections, pump, etc).  Based on the selling price and resale price (used machines).  Based on these numbers, it's cost me about $100/yr. to have a 300A tig machine in the shop.  Show me a Chinese machine I could have bought back in 1977 and realized the same return.  BTW, a friend of mine still has the 1977 machine and uses it every day.These "wannabe welders" can keep buying the "cheap" throwaway Chinese junk all they want.  I'll stick with the tried and true.These same guys pushing the Chinese junk should also be updating their passports and visas so they can head for China because their won't be any jobs here.  Of course, they'll have to learn to "make ends meet" on a substantially lower pay scale than what they're used to here.When are the American (and Canadians) going to wake up and realize that the Chinese are not "our friends".  How much more Chinese dry wall, paint, baby food, etc, etc. are we going to buy because it's "cheap".  How much longer are we going to just turn our heads at the "stolen technology" they're selling.  Does anyone here think a US Patent means jack to the Chinese?Yes sir.  You "wannabe welders" keep buying that Chinese junk and come on here with the "how do I turn this machine on" posts because the freaking owners manual (if one's included at all) is in Chinese.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:SunDown, Stop fooling yourself and everyone else. Your making sound like buying chinese is the down fall of this country, the Bush administration took care of that for us. First off go ahead and accept the fact that your millers (I love em and own a few of them too and i just recently bought an Everlast machine, welds awesome) are made out of mostly imported parts, so is your car and all the power tools you own. I dont really feel like typing a lot right now, I'll chime in later.
Reply:The Everlast Welder I'm using is a base model, no frills, welds just fine.As far as listening to the voice of experience, most of the people who criticize these units have never used one and never will!
Reply:Originally Posted by worntornThe Everlast Welder I'm using is a base model, no frills, welds just fine.As far as listening to the voice of experience, most of the people who criticize these units have never used one and never will!
Reply:I'm Canadian so I'm used to buying stuff from other countries. If we Canadians let Country of origin stop us from purchasing items not made in Canada we would not have a very high standard of living.Buying machinery and goods from other Countries around the world and putting those items to work hasn't ruined our Country. In fact with the last Economic melt down we were not affected nearly as badly as the US- our banking system was not in jeopardy and none of our banks closed or even came close to it. I'm not sure how many US bank closed, but I believe it was in the hundreds. Buying import goods didn't create the mess in the US, UK and parts of Europe. Greed of some large US companies (Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers etc) along with decades of people in those countries living well beyond their means were the main causes of the disaster, and it is a continuing disaster.All I've really said all along about the welder is that it works well. That seems to be impossible for some people to accept. I can understand the concept of staying with the tried and true and also the fact that you don't want to take a chance after past problems.  I will add that this doesn't  qualify you to pass judgement on a machine you have never used but simply don't like based on Country of Origin.I'm not hearing a lot of  complaints from the people who are actually using these Everlast units, just a lot of negativity from people who have never so much as stuck an arc with one!
Reply:Originally Posted by worntornAs far as the China stuff goes, I agree with most of the posters here, a lot of it is garbage and ends up costing you more than it is worth down the road..... I loaded up on cheap mechanics tools. About half of these were broken or worn out within a year or two with just occasional use. I still don't trust any of the Chinese/Tawainese woodworking equipment.I'm like a lot of the older weldors here who know their Miller and Lincoln units will perform, so why take a chance? I suspect that like a lot of the weldors here my info on woodworking machinery is probably a little outdated. There likely are some decent Chinese machines being made now but I'm not about to try them out, I already have all the good old heavy duty machines that I need, why change?It will be interesting to see if it is still working fine in ten years or so.
Reply:I guess my thinking was pretty close to the way yours is now for many years and those were the years during which I bought all of the Millwork machinery. Like you, now that I have it and know how to setup and maintain the machines, why make a change?I really felt I was taking a chance at having the same old kind of import problems with this welder, but it has worked well enough that I can see perhaps there are some decent products being built over there now.Of course everybody has the right to an opinion, really did not mean that. My thought there is pretty basic logic, how can someone say a particular machine is a poor unit if they have never used it? If you have used one of these machines and found it to be lacking in some way, then I would be interested to know what the problem(s) were and respect your views on that.
Reply:It's the generalization that is the problem. Any company, in any country, any day of the week can make a dud. Miller,Lincoln, Air Liquide, Chong Chang Chu, they've all had machines break. It's a common reaction that people will say "X" is $hit cause I got one and it broke.But the fact is that just because you happened to buy one that broke, doesn't make them "all" junk. If there are lots of people that have the same experience, with the same product, then that product won't be around long. But but that still doesn't mean that they are all bad. It's stupid to argue that a product is crap because of where it came from. If it works for you, and is the best that your budget allows for, at the time you need it, then it's the right tool. I really want to see a show of hands of how many union members and /or die-hard buy American preachers on here shop at Wal-Mart? A lot I'm willing to bet.200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:We should all hope that the Chinese military equipment that is sold throughout the world is as reliable as some of their welding equipment (namely Gianttech).
Reply:Originally Posted by bert the welderIt's the generalization that is the problem. Any company, in any country, any day of the week can make a dud. Miller,Lincoln, Air Liquide, Chong Chang Chu, they've all had machines break. It's a common reaction that people will say "X" is $hit cause I got one and it broke.But the fact is that just because you happened to buy one that broke, doesn't make them "all" junk. If there are lots of people that have the same experience, with the same product, then that product won't be around long. But but that still doesn't mean that they are all bad. It's stupid to argue that a product is crap because of where it came from. If it works for you, and is the best that your budget allows for, at the time you need it, then it's the right tool. I really want to see a show of hands of how many union members and /or die-hard buy American preachers on here shop at Wal-Mart? A lot I'm willing to bet.Not that it matters in this discussion but I'll throw it in anyway, since it has a "little bit' to do with my feelings towards the Chinese.I still carry Chinese shrapnel in my back, head, and legs courtesy of their shipments of weapons to the North Vietnamese.  Only good thing I can say about that situation is that I'm glad the grenade was made in China (junk/unpredictable blast pattern) because if it had been made in the USA, I wouldn't be here today.Have any of the posters singing the praises of Chinese made goods ever even traveled to China?  To Taiwan?Supporting Chinese welders is akin to supporting slavery in the US in 1860.The Chinese workers are finally beginning to get the picture.  Although labor will remain cheap compared to the US, prices will have to rise.  If the current manufacturing trends continue in this country, we'll be forced to pay more for their junk because we will no longer have the capablility to produce it here.I spent three tours in SE Asia having the North Vietnamese pushing Chinese junk my way every day.  I don't need to listen to a bunch of "wannabe welders" telling me how great their (non UL approved) cheap chinc $hit is.  Most of the guys running their mouths wouldn't know a quality welder/plasma cutter if it fell on their foot.A couple of posters in this thread are prime examples.  They don't know jack about tig welding which is evident in their posts, however over half their posts are comments (unsolicited I may add) about how great their Chinese junk is and how happy they are with it.  For the guy who had only rode a horse, the Hugo was probably a "great car".Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:what the $%& is a Hugo?
Reply:Originally Posted by worntornwhat the $%& is a Hugo?
Reply:Hugo is the leader of Venezula.Yugo is the car....
Reply:I was going to say, why don't Yugo show us a pic of a Hugo?The 98 model came with a heated rear window to keep your hands warm when pushing.
Reply:I think it matters how a machine is made, not necessarily who made it.I try to avoid buying Chinese, simply for the fact that every manufacturing plant in china, which sells cheap because they have poor working conditions, unfairly treated labor and unfairly subsidized materials, is an unfair competitor to the all of the companies who have to make good stuff and pay good wages. Unfortunately i can't avoid buying Chinese because some products are unavailable from any where else, either because the particular item is not made anywhere but China or any USA made versions are not carried by my local stores. I think that the all the standards forced on USA manufacturing should be forced upon all products sold in the USA. That would level the playing field.Last edited by fortyonethirty; 08-23-2010 at 08:58 PM.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:I'm SOOO over this subject. How about this: Next guy who has more than a week in this forum who posts this same stupid question will get 30 days to research the meaning of life away from here??? You could say it's not fair. But this lame subject takes a full 20% of our bandwidth. What a waste of bandwidth.........It's not that it is getting old guys. IT GOT OLD 3 YEARS AGO.Nowadays, y'all are just insulting your intelligence. From now on, any 'What if welders made on the moon and sold to Martians....' threads will be deleted IMMEDIATELY.Posters of said subject material will be told to search the past. Plenty of junk mail for them to look through in the archives.Now, get FarmerSamm and the rest to keep looking up train tracks pics and other productive uses of all that extra bandwitdh!!!!And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.