Advice from hobbyists and grizzled vets

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First off, let me apologize if this is long winded.  I will try to be as brief and to the point as possible.  I graduated in 99 from a technical college and worked as a welder for a few years.  For the past 10 years, i have been employed as a chemical operator at a chemical plant.  I currently have a mm 140 mig and have been contemplating the purchase of a tig setup.  no, this is not another thread about which machine to buy.  In a nutshell, here is my dilemma.  I love welding.  But, how in the hell can i justify the cost of a syncrowave or dynasty if i am not making any money in return?  I have had an add on cl for the past 6 months or so and have only caught 3 low paying welding jobs.  most people want to pay you $5 for your labor and time.  As I said before, i have a full time job and am not looking to start a side business or anything like that.  i really dont even want to have an add on cl and deal with that stuff. There is also the issue of insurance, incorporating, etc.  So i guess what i am wanting to do is see if anyone has any ideas on what market i could tap into.  Here is an example of what i am talking about.  a guy came to me a few weeks back and wanted a couple of fittings welded onto a ss pot for a home brew kettle.  So i started thinking that home brewing is big right now and this may be a market to check into.  But, could i make a beer brew kettle for cheaper than someone can go on ebay or amazon and buy it for?So i will summarize.  i love tig welding and welding in general.  But, i cant justify paying good cabbage for a machine to sit around and collect dust.
Reply:My advise is get a job welding before you strike out on your own. With your experience with chemicals, you might want to target the chemical field.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Heavy Duty grill pits. sell 20 or so, pay for the welder. should do OK for St. Louis
Reply:Thanks shovelon but I'm not looking for a new job.  I'm just looking for ideas from anyone who is a hobbyist on things that might actually sell.  I play the drums but they are a one time cost.  As we all know with welding, metal, consumables, equipment, etc all costs money and is a continual expense.  I would be happy just practicing with laps and t's, etc. for the enjoyment of welding.  But I would obviously rather make something to sell and recoup the cost of machines, etc.  it's hard to compete with cheap Chinese made stuff that you can just go to Walmart or wherever and buy.  So I guess the trick is  to find something that will sell for hopefully a profit and for cheaper than can be bought at the big box store.  Wishful thinking, huh?
Reply:Maybe you're over thinking this or I don't fully understand your dilemma. I have a couple of welders to build and maintain my farm equipment, yet I have a walk-in business that pays for consumables and beer money. I've never put an ad out, sent out business cards, or tried to solicit customers in any way. However, my shop is on a road with regular traffic. People will stop by, bull**** with me about the task at hand, and casually bring up the do-hickey they have that needs some welding. Most ask what I would charge for the job. I've yet to have anyone dictate the price. This may be because I wasn't found on CS (which screams 'haggle pricing' to me). Nearly everything I weld for others is stainless or aluminum. They'd probably go see their neighbor with the HH140 if it was a steel job. If it's a rush job, I refer them to weldors in the area. My day job is a farmer, so I stay pretty busy (this week has already had three 19 hour days), but the weather plays a role in how busy I am. My free time costs other people money. Most have no problem paying me. On that note, I suggest you run a cash only business. I repaired an aluminum gate and the check bounced. That one cost me my time + $19.Lincoln Precision Tig 185Lincoln Power Mig 256Hypertherm PM 45Everlast 140STSmith O/A
Reply:Check out some of FeXal's posts. I think his situation may be similar to yours. He's found a creative outlet for his hobby.Lincoln Precision Tig 185Lincoln Power Mig 256Hypertherm PM 45Everlast 140STSmith O/A
Reply:Thanks manning.  I will check out his posts and your right, I overthink everything.
Reply:For me, this is not about making money.  I know that's crazy talk.  I would be happy to just break even and still be able to do something I enjoy and keep my skills current while doing it.  I checked out some of fexals posts.  Very talented guy and that is exactly what I am looking for.  He even has the same birthday as me.  Scary.
Reply:It just took time for me. Word of mouth and doing work for friends. If you do good work the word spreads more and more and over time you will be known and people will come.I see those "I'll fix your junk" post on FB all the time. I honestly think those posts will only get cheap bastards or people that don't know how to look in a phone book.Or open a legit business and advertise.
Reply:Yeah, craigslist has sucked.  No, I won't come to your house and fix your crappy item for $2.50.  Sorry.
Reply:Avoid "taking" jobs..   better if you build something and then sell it.    Avoid anything that goes on the highway.   Or anthing that would have a high chance of injury of it failed.  Horseshoes are great.  I just made this coat rack last weekend in about 20 minsIf u r geeky, make fandom related things like Steampunk,  lawn art, Animal lover/ pet related etc.    See some of Ironheart Ram's stuff here.    Most of us are no where near that artistic or creative though.   Google scrap metal art... Attached ImagesTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Thanks southpaw.  Very good advice.  A guy contacted me once about repairing part of a broken axel on a stretch hummer limo.  He was in a pinch so I probably could have charged an arm and a leg.  I steered clear of that one because I don't need the death of 20 people on my hands god forbid something happened.
Reply:Hi, Domantori.I guess I'm a little confused. You seem to be interested in welding as a hobby, but you want to make money on it. I know some guys make money playing golf or stampcollecting, but for most of us a hobby is a hobby. You are going to put money into it, like golf clubs, a pool table, woodworking equip, etc., because it is what you want to do. Maybe you don't really need to buy a Syncrowave or Dynasty for starting a hobby.If you want to start a welding business, then that's a whole different story. Then you buy the best, right equipment based on a solid business plan. Go to the bank, show them the plan, borrow enough for what you need and hopefully you will make money.Back to the hobby side, buy what you can afford as a hobby without missing mortgage payments or the baby going hungry. Then if somebody comes by and wants you to "do a small repair job", charge them enough for beer money and still keep them as a friend. You probably won't pay for all your equipment, but you might cover your consumables while you gain experience. Later you may find some products you can sell reasonably locally or on the internet and help pay some of your hobby expenses. Or you may find a niche product that you can sell to create a stream of income. Enough of those and you may begin to get some pay-back.All that said, good luck to you. Welcome to the forum. Take advantage of the guys' knowledge, advice, and experience. A lot of successful businesses started as a hobby, but I'm pretty sure there are many times more hobby's that cost a lot of money with no return except the satisfaction of doing what you want to do.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:Yeah,  I spend money on guns and ammo and enjoy shooting as a hobby, but I'm not hiring myself out as a hitman to pay for my guns and ammoTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Hi wb,Very good advice.  Sorry if my ramblings are confusing but you seem to know exactly what I am talking about.  In a perfect world, I would like to weld for the pure enjoyment but also recoup some of the money that our hobby takes to do.  I should also mention that although I have a very good union job, I have 3 kids under 4 years old at home.  My wife stays home with the kids so we are a single income family which requires me to work an average of 1000-1300 hours of overtime every year.  I mentioned a syncrowave or dynasty because I believe that you get what you pay for and I want something that is going to last for years to come.  I have been driving around this morning grocery shopping and have been noticing all of the ornamental iron out there.  Maybe this is a potential market?
Reply:Lol southpaw.  Take that business plan to the bank and see what kind of response you get.
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawYeah,  I spend money on guns and ammo and enjoy shooting as a hobby, but I'm not hiring myself out as a hitman to pay for my guns and ammo
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawYeah,  I spend money on guns and ammo and enjoy shooting as a hobby, but I'm not hiring myself out as a hitman to pay for my guns and ammo
Reply:Another way to look at justifying the cost is home projects/repairs.You have 3 kids- gotta be a project upcoming for at least one of them i.e Go Kart.Even if you don't build a Go Kart or whatever-You could make a wagon, repair a store bought wagon, Fire Pit, etc etc.You certainly don't need a Tig machine for those projects but iffin' anything is alooominum then you'll need it.I don't look at making things cheaper than the Box store- you can't.Example- I purchased a small patio Fire Pit from Sears- $59.00. on sale. Heck it was only $100.00 regular but it was a roll around type with a bowl for the pit, ember screen around it and a dome lid. Sure I could have made something pretty cool but I knew that I could also repair anything on the purchased one and be ahead in costs.The ember screen rusted out and I just made a new one with heavier gauge expanded metalEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Good points Ed.  I have my miller mig already.  The tig would just be a luxury and not a requirement.
Reply:Unless you are doing very small parts, specalized items... gun smithing, performance automotive, Rocket science,  exotic metals or thin Aluminum, tig is really not needed. Aluminum over 1/8" is probably better done with a spoolgun.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:My son has made a (very) few bucks here and there by welding automotive stuff for the younger (his) generation.  Weld a dump valve bung thingie on turbo plumbing of some sort, do a 1" weld on a sheet metal crack in a shock tower or a little rust patch.  Heat and "wrinkle bend" a SS exhaust header pipe to add clearance for an engine swap.  Just stuff but it keeps him in practice and supplies."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:that right there is the answer, you just said it.... for a hobbyist a tig is a luxury. this is why many come here wanting to buy a tig setup for just a few hundred bucks, because they can't justify a very large expense for just a hobby.  looking at it realistically, almost any hobby can be as cheap or expensive as you want it to be. fishing can be as inexpensive as a string and a hook or as elaborate as a 25' boat and a truck to tow it and 5k worth of apparatus in just reels and rods...you could buy a bike for $25 at a yard sale or you could go spend well north of 5k on a high end mountain bikehell i've seen guys spend many thousands of dollars on remote controlled cars...in the end you have to ask yourself, 1 what can you afford2 how bad do you want it3 how many sacrifices in other areas are you willing to make to be able to do what you really want in this hobbyyou have already said that you don't want another job...but if you try to build a business to recuperate the expenses of a high end welding setup then you are actually creating another job, which is really not the same as any kind of hobbyist approach. yeah eventually you may figure out a way to make some spare cash but trying to figure that out to justify the expense before even buying it is like putting the cart before the horse. as  a beginner/hobbyist you will make very little $$ compared to the effort you'll wind up putting in so as a hobbyist that really doesn't work out so well. it may eventually but it's probably not something to base the purchase on in the first placemiller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:Thank you turbo.  Well said.
Reply:Start small.Go pay a visit to your local farmers market, craft fairs, outdoor shows etc on a weekend.All kinds of little odds and ends and doohickeys people are buying and selling there. Metal yard art, signs, benches, trellises, small tables, wire baskets, pot holders and hangers, candle holders, rake/shovel holders etc. Most can be done with steel & your mig along with some paint and even wood . You probably wont make a bunch of money but at least cover your consumables and refine your techniques. Then anything you sell, give them a business card along with it and hopefully their friends and relatives see the stuff and maybe they'll contact you for stuff. If you come up with something that sells often, start putting them on ebay, CL, etcIf that starts working out and evolving into something profitable, save the money and then it may be worth stepping it up a notch and going with a tig machine to expand into other metals. Just throwing ideas out thereThanks buck.  St.louis has over 2 million people and a great farmers market in the soulard area which is near downtown.  There are also plenty of craft fairs here in the fall.  Another point I forgot to mention is that my father in law (body man for 30 years) has a 3 bay shop at my disposal.  Fully paid for so no overhead which is a nice perk.
Reply:I figured out a solution.  If someone can just give me $5k with no expectations of ever getting paid back, that would solve all.  Who's feeling generous?  I have a 7 year old black lab that fetches the paper I will sell for 5k?  I think that's a fair deal!!
Reply:I hear a kidney brings good change on the black market.
Reply:Sold!  It's a useless organ anyway.
Reply:Ornamental iron patio furniture hand made sells for some big bucks. Kingmetals.com has tons of supplies for just that. Your mig could suffice for that.I do a fair amount of onsite restaurant, food plant, clean room, and hospital repair of SS items with my dynasty200. The Diversion180 is similar but half the price and is also dual voltage so it can access power almost anywhere. If you got good enough you could promote that also.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Does anyone have any opinions on which bender is the best for ornamental iron?  Hossfeld #2?  Jr2?  Shop outfitters?  Any input would be great.
Reply:Originally Posted by DomantoriDoes anyone have any opinions on which bender is the best for ornamental iron?  Hossfeld #2?  Jr2?  Shop outfitters?  Any input would be great.
Reply:Ive made a few bucks repairing xercise equipment. The GAUNTLET's have an axle that breaks and Ive done a few. The GAUNTLET is a stairwell type of machine kind of like an esculator and most gyms have or have had them.
Reply:Lol broccoli.  She would love too.  She's supportive of my shenanigans.  I had two motorcycles and sold them so I can pretty much get away with anything now in her mind.  She hated the bikes.  Thanks insane.  Appreciate the input.
Reply:I searched for ornamental iron bender and didn't find much.  Should I start a new thread for the oi guys?
Reply:Originally Posted by DomantoriI searched for ornamental iron bender and didn't find much.  Should I start a new thread for the oi guys?
Reply:As far as bending, you can do a lot with minimal stuff if you use a bit of creativity. Most of the original stuff was done "old school with an anvil and a heat source. There have been plenty of DIY forges posted up. I did threads on both my coal and gas forge, but guys have made even simpler ones than I did.Harbor Freight sells a basic compact bender than will do a lot of basic cold bending on the cheap. The design isn't all that complicated and lots of guys here have built similar designs that are even less expensive that the one HF sells. Sockets make a good center mandrel in different sizes if you design it right.As far as the tig, You can find decent machines fairly inexpensively used. I've seen almost new Syncrowave 180's and 200's go for as low as $900-1100 fairly regularly. Older tigs Like 330 AB/P's go for even less. I've seen nice ones at auction go for scrap prices. Last one I saw went for less than $300 at auction in working condition.Sounds like you are trying to justify spending the money on a machine. That's honestly not the way to go about this as a hobbyist. 1st if you are trying to "sell" your services, you need to know what you are doing. That rules out most of the tig related jobs and leaves you with nick nacks. They really won't make you money unless you are serious. If you do have the skills to do tig type jobs, then that's a bit different, but you say you aren't looking to make money... Think about it this way. What are you willing to "throw away" on your hobby? Would you dump $500 in an off shore fishing trip? Would you spend $1000 to go hunt moose? If you are into cars, would you shell out cash to go to on  of thee NASCAR experiences to get to drive on a track? Your tig is the same thing, except you might get a bit more use of it in the long run. Any money you eventually make is "found" cash. Many guys I know simply plow it right back into the hobby. If the machine itself is too much, how about just taking a class? Getting good hands on training with someone to point out your mistakes isn't "wasted" money. think of it as an investment towards your future machine. When you sit down and add up what it would cost you to practice on your own, a class is usually stupid cheap, and you get where you want to go faster, so it saves you money in the long run on average..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Thanks dsw.  I learned tig on mild, ss and al in college but have not done it in over 10 years.  I have an opportunity financially right now (before all of the kids get in school) to buy a few things and just want to make sure I do it right.  I guess part of doing it right is to really decide what my specific goals are.  I am just fearful of having buyers remorse (should have upsized, gotten ac for al, etc.).  I stated earlier that tig is just a luxury for me and it is unfortunately the process I enjoy the most.  I can say for certain that I am a hobbyist and am never going to quit my job to persue welding.  Realistically, my mm 140 can suit most if not all of my needs.  In the end, you are correct in saying what is a hobby worth to me.   That is the million dollar question (especially buying a miller!).
Reply:one way I justify some of my tool purchases is by building other things rather than buying them. if you can save hundreds building something then this goes towards justifying the other tools purchasedyou can not build your own miller, but if you use your miller to help turn some scrap into other useful tools that would have otherwise cost hundreds here and hundreds there then this helps offset the cost...  bottom line is buy what you must but build the rest, especially as a hobbiestmiller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:Thanks turbo.  I see your in Brooklyn.  Have you ever toured indian Larry's shop?  He was always one of my favorite builders.  Very talented and true to the art of choppers.
Reply:Look at ironheart_ram's items.You could probably sell that kind of stuff. Plus he just uses junk anyway so it's cheap.
Reply:Wow!  That guy is very talented and has way more vision than I could ever imagine.  Amazing work.
Reply:It appears the original poster is looking for a self suppourting  hobby.In my limited experience "Self Suppourting" and "Hobby" are mutualy exclusive terms.  Good luck in finding your dream.I offer three choices: Good, Fast, & Cheap. You may pick two.Hobart AC/DC StikMate LXHarbor Freight AD HoodHarbor Freight Industrial Chop SawDeVilbis 20 Gallon, 5 HP Compressor
Reply:No, not at all.  I have a full time job.  But I also have a non working wife that stays home with the 3 kids so any money that can be recouped from my hobby is an added bonus.  That's all.
Reply:I would not describe anyone who takes care of three kids full time "non-working".  I bet you really meant "working overtime in a critical job without outside pay".
Reply:Absolutely.  I tell anyone that will listen that my wife has the harder job.  I couldn't do it for 5 minutes.  She left me with the kids (2 year old twins and a 4 year old) for 20 minutes and all hell broke loose.  I was bathing the twins and my oldest decided to flood the toilet.  We have a two story and there was toilet water coming out of the can lights in the kitchen from the flooded toilet above.  My son tried to plunge with no success!