Problem TIG welding steel

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Hey Guys,I have a Miller Dynasty 200dx that I have been messing with for a few years now trying to learn how to TIG with. Started welding on steel and it seemed alright. Went to another website and was recommended to practice on aluminum. Went and got some 6061 1/8” plate and practiced on that quite a bit. On aluminum, I can make the stack of dimes pretty good (I think). Now I tried to go back to 1/8” steel plate, and I can’t weld for s**t! The puddle doesn’t seem to flow like aluminum. The rod seems to stick when feeding, and I’m using 3/32 rod like Miller says. The puddle is more of a oblong shape instead of round, and the weld is a grey color with a snow flake like pattern on it. Does anyone know what I’m doing wrong. Here is my set up:3/32” 2% Thoriated Tungsten Electrode#7 Collet body (and tried #7 Gas Lens)11 CFM gas flow (100% Argon)3/32” ER 70-6 rod125 amps (Remote foot pedal)1 second pre flow13 seconds post flow1/8” steel plate ground clean with 36 grit sanding diskwiped with acetone before and after grindingI’ll try to get a picture up, but my camera isn’t the greatest. If you guys can help, that would be great. Welding aluminum is fun, but I really need to learn how to weld steel. Thanks,kidtigger24Last edited by kidtigger24; 10-02-2010 at 08:53 PM.
Reply:After the aluminum you did'nt happen to leave the settings the same before trying steel?DC Straight for steel.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Sorry forgot to say that in my set up list. I'm on DC for welding steel. AC for aluminum. Sorry about that.kidtigger24
Reply:make sure your dc negative, turn your heat up, and try welding fillets to get a groove, to eliminate the rod sticking... If your welding mild steel, theres no need for acetone... just be sure to grind of the rust... also, aluminum will always wet better than steel, without ocsilation, while as steel grabs more, so move your torch from side to side... Shout if you got more questionsMatthew
Reply:Besides sticking the filler to the piece is sounds like what you have is not plain 'ol steel..Could be some sort of alloy..I have seen what you are experiencing before and it was the material itself..By the way 13 seconds post is way too much..Anything over 4-5 seconds is just a waste of gas......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I know I'm on DC negative because the tungsten isn't melting. I thought about maybe I was welding on an alloy. I got the pieces from a local steel supplier that has a bargain shed. My pieces were mixed in with all sorts of structual steel, so I would think they are A36, right? I also tried some stuff I got from Home Depot, and it did the same thing. If I use more amps then 125, I burn through the back side. Also I thought the rule for post flow was 1 second per 10 amps? That's why I was using 13 seconds. And also are the torch movements the same for steel and aluminum?kidtigger24P.S. Forgot to say my tungsten is ground to the proper pencil like point with the scratches going the right way.
Reply:I think you should try to get some GOOD pics because going by the typed word leaves lots to ponder..Pics will tell a better story.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I'll try to get a better camera from someone and post some pics.kidtigger24
Reply:Originally Posted by kidtigger24. Also I thought the rule for post flow was 1 second per 10 amps? That's why I was using 13 seconds. .
Reply:I can't for the life of me remember where I read that, but that's what I was going by. From now on I will lock post flow at 5 seconds. Thanks for the tip.kidtigger24
Reply:Regarding Postflow:Page 46 of Miller's Tig handbook states, "The postflow timer should time out and conserve shielding gas.  It is usually set to allow one second of postflow time for each 10 amperes of welding current being used."While I agree that following this "rule of thumb", especially at the higher amp settings, may be excessive postflow, to simply state that 5 seconds postflow is adequate, is flat WRONG.When welding at higher amp settings, you need to adjust your postflow time upwards accordingly.  If your tungsten is turning blue, postweld, then you need more postflow.  I've found situations where 5 seconds was not nearly enough, but seldom do I run over 10-12 seconds of postflow.Just my .02Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIRegarding Postflow:Page 46 of Miller's Tig handbook states, "The postflow timer should time out and conserve shielding gas.  It is usually set to allow one second of postflow time for each 10 amperes of welding current being used."While I agree that following this "rule of thumb", especially at the higher amp settings, may be excessive postflow, to simply state that 5 seconds postflow is adequate, is flat WRONG.When welding at higher amp settings, you need to adjust your postflow time upwards accordingly.  If your tungsten is turning blue, postweld, then you need more postflow.  I've found situations where 5 seconds was not nearly enough, but seldom do I run over 10-12 seconds of postflow.Just my .02
Reply:kidtigger,For mild steel at 125A I'd probably run between 5-8 sec.When working with SS, I tend to run a longer postflow.Remember, that what you're trying to achieve is keeping your tungsten and weld bead in an inert atmosphere until the weld/tung cool below the "oxidizing point", where the tung/bead react with the air we breath.Some metals such as SS, have a much lower thermal conductivity and therefore require more postflow time.Remember to keep your torch over the bead until postflow stops.Postflow, as it pertains to cooling the tungsten, can also be a function of what kind of flowrate (CFH) you're using also.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Well got my brothers camera and got you some good pictures. Tell me what you think. Be honest, I won't be offended. I'm still learning and would like to know if I'm on the right track. Thanks.kidtigger24 Attached Images
Reply:kidtigger,Are you lefthanded?Not being a smartazz, but you need a lot more practice.Looks like you're running way to cold and not traveling fast enough.  What kind of arc length are you holding?I suspect the biggest problem you're having can be attributed to your removing your filler from the covering gas between dips.Just for S&G, set your pulser to about .8 PPS and practice at that setting.  Dip on each peak cycle.  If that seems too fast for you, change the pulse to 1 PPS.  That will give you a peak every second.  (set duration at 40% and background at 60%)  We're not trying to achieve the lower average amps here, just trying to help with getting your dip timing down.  With these settings you may have to slightly increase your amps.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Generally people are taught on steel first as aluminum is seen as a harder material to weld.  You cant use the same technique for both as the materials behave completely different.Approach it like you have never welded before, experiment with what you have to do to get the puddle to flow and how you need to add filler.  You'll get it worked out soon enough.Your setup sounds perfect so don't worry about that, it just takes practice.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIkidtigger,Are you lefthanded?Not being a smartazz, but you need a lot more practice.Looks like you're running way to cold and not traveling fast enough.  What kind of arc length are you holding?I suspect the biggest problem you're having can be attributed to your removing your filler from the covering gas between dips.Just for S&G, set your pulser to about .8 PPS and practice at that setting.  Dip on each peak cycle.  If that seems too fast for you, change the pulse to 1 PPS.  That will give you a peak every second.  (set duration at 40% and background at 60%)  We're not trying to achieve the lower average amps here, just trying to help with getting your dip timing down.  With these settings you may have to slightly increase your amps.
Reply:Originally Posted by kidtigger24The puddle is more of a oblong shape instead of round, and the weld is a grey color with a snow flake like pattern on it. Does anyone know what I’m doing wrong. Here is my set up:
Reply:Con_Fuse,The OP is not ready for hi speed pulsing.  He needs help with dip timing,  That's where the use of the low speed pulsing comes into play.I seldom use hi-speed pulsing on mild steel.  It helps with SS, but even there, it's used more to reduce the "average amps" put into the workpiece.You're just con_fusing the issue to bring up high speed pulsing.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:All right, I Agree, - not ready for pulsing.In anycase, he should verify that the pulser is in fact turned off.When I first played with the pulser, I was getting strange bead shapes.  By strange I mean "not round".   Not quite as bad as the pictures show, but some similar characteristics.  I was pulsing with foot pedal on top of the machine pulse and what looked like a perfectly round puddle, would suddenly freeze like a deformed circle with a 'handle' on one side.  And if I was welding right to left (normal) the handle would be at the bottom right of the circle.   Maybe torch angle, maybe arc blow (but it was welded on welding table with big clamps all around - and didn't happen with pulse being turned off).I'll leave details on what I changed for the next topic Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Originally Posted by con_fuse9All right, I Agree, - not ready for pulsing.In anycase, he should verify that the pulser is in fact turned off.When I first played with the pulser, I was getting strange bead shapes.  By strange I mean "not round".   Not quite as bad as the pictures show, but some similar characteristics.  I was pulsing with foot pedal on top of the machine pulse and what looked like a perfectly round puddle, would suddenly freeze like a deformed circle with a 'handle' on one side.  And if I was welding right to left (normal) the handle would be at the bottom right of the circle.   Maybe torch angle, maybe arc blow (but it was welded on welding table with big clamps all around - and didn't happen with pulse being turned off).I'll leave details on what I changed for the next topic
Reply:Sorry I wrote this up yesterday but forgot to hit the "post" button... in case anyone hasn't covered this yet...------For a more circular ripple shape, you need to let your puddle grow larger in size before dipping in your filler rod.  Or if you don't want a larger puddle, switch from the 3/32" filler to a smaller, 1/16" filler rod size.  Or, you could pre-heat your work a bit, so the puddle is not frozen so fast.The grey surface (with the "snowflake" pattern) is steel oxidation.  The good news is that steel oxidation melts before the melting point of steel itself, so readily "floats" (as slag) on the surface while welding, so you can make structurally sound welds with it.  The only bad thing about the steel oxidation is that the puddle under the slag can be a little more sluggish (harder to control), and the "as-welded" weld appearance isn't as pretty.For how to eliminate the oxidation, do a search on here for how to TIG weld stainless steel properly, and try some of those techniques.  (Larger cup, gas lens, tighter arc, less stickout, more pre and post flow, optimize flowrate, weld hotter and faster, interrupt your weld bead and make several "stitch welds" instead of one big long weld bead, letting work cool in between, etc)  You should see the grey snowflake bead surfaces go away and be replaced by shiney, rainbow surface colors (indicating the surface oxidation is a thin film layer.)Last edited by jakeru; 10-04-2010 at 02:10 PM.
Reply:I dunno about the Dynasty, and I figure if it was this easy Sundown would have caught it but when I switched back from Al to steel I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong either.  I left the high freq on and it was welding weird.  Should just be on "start" for mild steel I believe.Millermatic 135Syncrowave 250
Reply:11 CFH is on the low side.
Reply:mot rig,On the Dynasty 200, when you switch from AC to DC, the machine automatically switches to "start only".  In fact, I'm not even sure HF continuous is an option in DC.  Never tried it.Setup for HF is different on the Dynasty that the Sync you have.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.Originally Posted by SundownIIImot rig,On the Dynasty 200, when you switch from AC to DC, the machine automatically switches to "start only".  In fact, I'm not even sure HF continuous is an option in DC.  Never tried it.Setup for HF is different on the Dynasty that the Sync you have.
Reply:Huh, interesting stuff.  Sounds a little more sophisticated than mine!  Anyway, that was my dilemma - I think I had a red face in my shop by myself when I finally flipped the switch back.    D'oh!Millermatic 135Syncrowave 250
Reply:rlitman,You are right and did a better job of explaining it than I did.With the Dynasty 200, you have HF Impulse, Lift Arc, and Stick (Adaptive Hot Start) options.  The point I was making to mot rig was that the Dynasty settings were different from those settings he's used to on his syncrowave 250 where you have a HF Start and an HF Continuous option.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Well after messing around a bit tonight, I played around with cup and tungsten sizes. A 1/16" seemed to work better, but I could see that it didn't like 135 amps. I finally switched to a #4 collet body with a 3/32" tungsten and it seems to work good. The rod flowed good and didn't stick this time. The welds now look like the first picture. No snow flake, but still very dark. If I speed up, the weld gets longer and more V shaped. I know this may sound stupid but, is my welder broken? Is it possible something inside is out of adjustment? I have used it quite a bit, but never pushed it so hard that it shut down and got a message on the screen. I have used it until the fan kicks on, and you could see that power output has been reduced cause of the duty cycle, but I walk away for 15 minutes to let it cool down some. So is my TIG broken, or do I still have no idea what I'm doing?kidtigger24  They think I’m crazy, but I know better. It is not I who am crazy. It is I who am MAD!
Reply:I don't think your machine is broken.With tig, there's no substitute for practice.  No one said it was "easy".  There's a reason tig is known as the most difficult manual welding process to "master".If your puddles are becoming V shaped, it leads me to believe that you're holding your torch with too much angle, which will push the heat ahead of the puddle.Get yourself some 1/8" steel coupons.  Grind all mill scale off.  Then practice running a bead across the coupon without filler.  Develop the consistency.  Turning the coupon over will tell you a lot about whether you're moving with equal/consistent heat.I only use a #4 cup for highly restricted welding.  For welds such as you're doing, I use a #7 or #8.  The larger cup will provide better gas coverage for the bead.With steel, you should be able to maintain pretty steady amps all the way across the coupon.  With aluminum, as you've probably seen, you need to be backing off your amps as you progress (or you have a larger puddle or you have to move faster).Don't be bashful with your coupons either.  You'll notice that if you run a second bead on the same coupon, the second bead will not appear the same as the first.  That's because the coupon has been pre-heated giving you different results.  Better to use several coupons and let them cool between beads.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:That's really good advice.  I got frustrated so I grabbed a beer and some coupons and did this and it helped immensely.  You can definitely learn a lot about your machine too if you decide to try to do the same weld w/ different tungsten sizes and filler sizes and settings.Millermatic 135Syncrowave 250
Reply:Originally Posted by mot krigThat's really good advice.  I got frustrated so I grabbed a beer and some coupons and did this and it helped immensely.  You can definitely learn a lot about your machine too if you decide to try to do the same weld w/ different tungsten sizes and filler sizes and settings.
Reply:Originally Posted by kidtigger24So drinking beer helps with TIG welding? Sounds good, I'm in!Just kidding.kidtigger24
Reply:Originally Posted by mot krigJust in my home shop, calms my nerves.    You gotta get that special buzz where you're better at everything like pool, drinking games, welding, and driving but not so much that you are hindered.
Reply:Well, like posted before  "practice makes perfect"!Millermatic 135Syncrowave 250
Reply:I didn't think TIG welding would kill my liver! Oh well, no pain no gain!kidtigger24  They think I’m crazy, but I know better. It is not I who am crazy. It is I who am MAD!