broken steel headbolt in aluminum head

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Hello everyone...i've searched the web on this subject, but was hoping to get a few "finer points" clarified herewhen doing a headgasket on my toyota, i was surprised that the reason the gasket was leaking was a broken headbolt..it sticks up about 1/4 on an angle from the head.i was going to try to weld a nut on the "stub" of the broken headbolt so i can remove it from the head; questions are:1. I have a 155 lincoln mig, can anyone suggest settings to start with?   (i intend to practice on a bolt out of the car first)2. my understanding is that because the metals are dissimilar, it is less likely that i would    melt my aluminium head by mistake3. what do you think of trying to weld the two broken pieces of the bolt together....    (i'll prob just try to weld the nut on though) i have looked over thest two links:http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=54709http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...oken-head-boltthanks for you help
Reply:My go-to method.I weld a washer to the stud firstThen weld the nut to the washerThen weld inside the nut to the topI put a flow control (from a paint gun) on my impact gun and turn up the pressure a little at a time till it's tapping gently.Have never needed more than two tries this way.Did 4 head bolts on my SA200 project last summer this way. Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:What he said plus stainless stick rod works about 3 times better than mig as far as strength of weld to the bolt goes.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Use the method described in the links you posted where a washer is welded in place first.The washer protects the edge of the bolt hole and the surface of the cylinder head where the head bolt rests when tightened.  The washer needs to be just large enough to actually fit over the bolt and lay flat against the cylinder head, but not large enough to leave a big gap between the washer and the bolt.After you have welded the washer to the bolt, put the largest nut you can find that does not reach out beyond the edges of the washer..........in place on top of the washer.You need to hold the nut in place firmly and weld inside the nut to secure it to the washer and the head bolt.Let the work cool for about 1 minute.When you begin to back out the bolt, don't try to just "run it out" all at once, use counter clockwise, then clockwise motions going just an 8th of a turn at a time or so each direction.  The purpose of than is to grind and break up any corrosion/rust that might be present in the threads.Also, you can tap lightly STRAIGHT IN on the bolt with a small hammer during the process to help with the rusted thread issue.Your favorite rust bust liquid with oil can help with that too.Last edited by walkerweld; 04-17-2013 at 11:56 AM.
Reply:No washer used in this one but photos may help just the same.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=182101MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:thanks...any suggestions on the mig settngs?
Reply:MIG would not be my first choice for this job, but i'd say you want a relatively low wire feed speed, and a fairly high heat setting to get the fusion you need for this.I would put a scrap bolt in a vise and attempt to replicate the joint as best as posisble to practice and get the machine setup first.Lincoln Idealarc 250Lincoln Weldanpower CC/CV engine driveLincoln LN-25 wire feederMiller Syncrowave 180 SDVarious oxy-fuel setups featuring Victor, Harris, and Prest-o-lite products
Reply:I just used a regular mig setting that I would weld with.You can't turn wire down and heat up and expect a mig to function correctly.Definitely agree that if you haven't done it before - try it on scrap to get your settings.Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveYou can't turn wire down and heat up and expect a mig to function correctly.
Reply:appreciate it!one last question...this is a old link of mine....think i can set up a poor man's tig if needed....the question is, do you think this is a much better way to go (instead of a mig)....http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=44057
Reply:TIG would be my first choice for this job.Lincoln Idealarc 250Lincoln Weldanpower CC/CV engine driveLincoln LN-25 wire feederMiller Syncrowave 180 SDVarious oxy-fuel setups featuring Victor, Harris, and Prest-o-lite products
Reply:Maybe I'm missing something but can't you just lift the head off over the broken bolt.Head bolts go through the head but screw into the block so it is not actually broken off "IN" the head, correct? The smallest detail can make a huge difference! How about a picture.
Reply:that is what I was just thinking Originally Posted by rexcormackMaybe I'm missing something but can't you just lift the head off over the broken bolt.Head bolts go through the head but screw into the block so it is not actually broken off "IN" the head, correct? The smallest detail can make a huge difference! How about a picture.
Reply:I always mig a nut on, usually without the washer.  I go with a big nut, say a 5/8" on a 3/8" bolt.  I stick the mig in, pointed at the center and start welding.  It almost never sticks to the threads, even on bolts broken below the surface, the heat is centered on the stud and as it builds up I start filling in the nut.  Sometimes it takes two or three times, but it will come out.  Each time you do it, it shrinks a little.  I have not tried stainless wire. Some folks on this site say it is stronger, I don't know.  A little PB blaster won't hurt as well.
Reply:Originally Posted by rexcormackMaybe I'm missing something but can't you just lift the head off over the broken bolt.Head bolts go through the head but screw into the block so it is not actually broken off "IN" the head, correct? The smallest detail can make a huge difference! How about a picture.
Reply:I'd just pull the head and remove. Gives you a new head gasket, so your chances of success go up. If you are going to keep it for a while I would just have the head rebuilt while it was off, that way it will be nice and flat with good valves for another hundred thousand plus miles. I have removed many bolts with the above method and never had it fail (at most 3 trys), but never have I done it on an aluminum hole.
Reply:Head bolt is also big enough to try using a left hand drill bit and an extractor, as there should not be much strain in getting it out.
Reply:My guess would be if he started this job to replace the head gasket, he would already have the head off by now.Lincoln Idealarc 250Lincoln Weldanpower CC/CV engine driveLincoln LN-25 wire feederMiller Syncrowave 180 SDVarious oxy-fuel setups featuring Victor, Harris, and Prest-o-lite products
Reply:Originally Posted by turkthat is what I was just thinking
Reply:Welding on a nut is worth a shot. I wouldn't be worried about the block, it get's much hotter with the engine running then the heat you'll put into it doing a quick weld.If it doesn't work, then you'll have to grind the bolt off smooth, drill out the screw, and then tap the hole for a stainless steel thread insert. I gave up on bolt extractors... broke too many off only to have to torch it out. Drilling out a bolt extractor doesn't work well.Last edited by moya034; 04-17-2013 at 03:01 PM.Lincoln Idealarc 250Lincoln Weldanpower CC/CV engine driveLincoln LN-25 wire feederMiller Syncrowave 180 SDVarious oxy-fuel setups featuring Victor, Harris, and Prest-o-lite products
Reply:Of course I'd first try to use a pair of vise grips. It it moves at all you should be able to work it out with those. Then go the welding nut as second stage.  Oh yeah tap on the end of the bolt with a small hammer a little to help loosen before trying the vise grips. Don't over do the vise grips either. If it starts to chew up the bolt then go to the welding.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:I have cut them out with OXY Fuel torch .
Reply:You won't damage the aluminum by centering a nut on the stud and centering the mig gun. I have done it hundreds of times. You don't even need a helmet, just center the gun on the nut. Make sure you're ground is either on the nut or close to it. You don't want arc going through bearings. Use all new bolts on reassembly, they may be " torque to yield" bolts. If so torque precisely. Do not use an EZ out. It will not work, your drill will want to wander toward the soft aluminum. Also a lot of Toyota gaskets are easily put on backwards by mistake, check all the holes.
Reply:Not to hijack, just as a tangent....You're not working on a 3VZ-E (3.0 v6) are you?James AHP 200X TIGMillerMatic 175DaytonaMIG 135Chinese O/A
Reply:Jody does a bolt removal on his site.  There are also a lot of You Tube videos on the subject.http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/If the things dirty, it might take a few tries. I have welded nuts to a lot of exhaust manifold studs and it usually takes 2-3 sometimes more tries to get the stud to come out. The fist couple tries tend to look pretty bad as the carbon and grease cook out of the broken end but as long as you can get the nut to weld to the bolt, you should get it out.The only time this method has not worked for me is if the old bolt is rusted in or cross threaded or galled up. Once that's the case you might as well plan on drilling.
Reply:I just keep doing it, even if it takes 3 or more times.  Everytime you do it the bolt shrinks a little..  If it is the V6, really take a close look at the new gaskets, those are the ones that get mixed up the most, both L and R and which side is up.  There are TSB's  on that engine regarding the head gaskets, so I would use OEM parts.  Again I don't know if they are the "torque to yield" bolts, but I would replace all of them with OEM as well. TSB's can be found on ALLDATADIY.com or any google search. Use code  PU122129 at checkout and it will drop their price to $10 for a year.
Reply:Originally Posted by irish fixitOf course I'd first try to use a pair of vise grips. It it moves at all you should be able to work it out with those. Then go the welding nut as second stage.  Oh yeah tap on the end of the bolt with a small hammer a little to help loosen before trying the vise grips. Don't over do the vise grips either. If it starts to chew up the bolt then go to the welding.
Reply:Vise grips first. Extractors work most of the time. Straight spline ones and follow drill size. Most people under drill or drive them in to hard and swell the bolt. I also weld nuts on with both mig and stick sometimes1 try sometimes moreMillermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer
Reply:One may simply replace the bolt and then be done vs all that goes with a gasket change etc.Stupid torque to yield crap they use today.Otherwise have the heads gone thru as well while its apart.Miller Dynasty 700Miller 350P with Aluma-pro push-pullMiller 280 Dynasty with expansion card Dynasty 200 DXMigMax 215 Enuff power and hand tools to create one of anything..... but mass produce nothing!!!
Reply:Fastest simplest for me has been oxy fuel cutting torch.The aluminium don't cut just the steel and the bottom of the hole shoots the steel right back out
Reply:Like said above hit those other bolts before you remove them.  Best method is a brass rod, hit that thing hard with a hammer a couple times before remoVing the other bolts. This happened to me about 4 months ago and is the reason I decided it was time for me to become a man and learn how to weld. Because everything on the internet says you need to weld a nut to the stud . Well i didn't have any weldes at the time.  One thing i found says that most machine auto shops will soak the bolt with pb blaster or your choice of penetrant (acetone&atf I've read is the best) over Night first.  So i did this step. Which is easy because the holes the bolts go into are usually larger than the bolt down to the point where the threads meet.The next day I came home from work and was telling a buddy about it and touched the head bolt.  Guess what?  It moved just from me touching the one sticking out of the head.  The pb blaster mixed with the fact that the head is not putting tension on the bolt allowed that bolt to spin out by hand. I have talked to other people that have experienced the same thing. This was a bolt i had to cut the head off because i was rushing and didn't hit with the hammer first.  (Very important step with f@&*ing allen head bolts)There was another bolt stuck in the block because it broke.  Same reason your head gasket leaked.  I just stuck the broken bolt down in the hole and unthreaded it by hand.  So my point is don't just jump in there and start welding. Because you don't want spatter or slag falling  in you oil or water passages.  This could kill your engine if not removed. To be honest though, if I had a welder at the time it would have been my first step.  LolMy given welding web rank "Solderer" Couldn't be more trueClarke Hotshot-Spoolgun flux/mig 135SG1986 Miller Dialarc 250 AC/DC
Reply:There is not even close to enough respect for using a chemical spray to loosen the stud prior to doing anything. PB Blaster penetrates the rust and makes removal a breeze. I was very skeptical about this until I started using it on 60 year old vintage engines, frames, etc and it makes a HUGE difference. I don't sell the stuff, just believe in it. Try it before making a mess!
Reply:I've seen that with PB blaster. Once the bolt sees "as seen on TV" it basically, well, it backs itself out of the predictament it is in.
Reply:WELL ......is it out or what????    Lets finish the job........
Reply:thank you!just got it out....it took a couple of tries...appreciate all the advice...from welding advice to gasket advice!
Reply:put a big washer over the broken stud (fit tightly, did not weld it on) to protect the block...trial and error on scrap on the bench before i tried it on the block.....fit a nut on tightly on the stub...and welded it on....came off no problem...weath of knowledge here...thanks guys!