Jeep Frame Repair Section

admin

I bought a 1995 Jeep YJ a couple of years ago and knew I was going to have to deal with some rust issues on the frame.  A sizeable crack developed on the front driver's side section this winter and decided to repair it instead of replacing the frame.I've wanted to get into welding for years, but never did. This gave me the "excuse" I needed to dive in head first.  Went and got a Lincoln 140, a bandsaw, and drill press and got to work.  Practiced up this winter on a cart and small bench (I'll post pics later of these) and then jumped into the frame repair.Cut off the bad section and made some templates.  Cut out all the pieces with an angle grinder and my bandsaw and welded it up.  Going to install back on the Jeep today and reinforce with some fishplates. Attached Images
Reply:Wow...that's your third project!?!?"These instructions are at our present level ofknowledge. Legal requirements do not exist.Technical issues subject to change."_________________________________________Lincoln MIG PAK 180Lincoln AC-225
Reply:Originally Posted by 1995moneypitI've wanted to get into welding for years, but never did. This gave me the "excuse" I needed to dive in head first.  Went and got a Lincoln 140, a bandsaw, and drill press and got to work.  Practiced up this winter on a cart and small bench (I'll post pics later of these) and then jumped into the frame repair.
Reply:I have burned more than 2 spools of wire in preparation for this project and have taken some introductory classes with a local fabricator/instructor.  I realize that this is a "life or death" fabrication, but I have done my homework.  I am working with 1/8" steel and maintained sufficient penetration through the welds.  Yes, it was ground down, but not because the welds were "ugly".  This section is visible and I didn't want to see a 18" long bead @ each corner of the box.  I have always believed that fuction and structure is priority, but a little pride in the finished product isn't so bad.  I was careful only to grind the bead and not dig into the base metal/structure.This is a common repair in the Jeep world and I've seen a lot worse work make it on the trail.
Reply:Originally Posted by HardwareWow...that's your third project!?!?
Reply:I had an old YJ that had frame rot issues, I used the same welder but used 3/16" steel and used flux core wire had to reconstruct a whole new rear frame from the crossmember back and it held up great no cracks or anything but more and more things started to rust on the jeep and we finally sold it to someone who parted it out.  I also did the same area you did around the steering box it looks like.  Just make sure you fish plate the repaired section where its welded to the original frame
Reply:Originally Posted by motoman3bI had an old YJ that had frame rot issues, I used the same welder but used 3/16" steel and used flux core wire had to reconstruct a whole new rear frame from the crossmember back and it held up great no cracks or anything but more and more things started to rust on the jeep and we finally sold it to someone who parted it out.  I also did the same area you did around the steering box it looks like.  Just make sure you fish plate the repaired section where its welded to the original frame
Reply:Got the section on yesterday.  Welded a 3/16" thick fishplate on the outside and engine side of the frame.  Drilled some 5/8" holes on each side of the seam for some added welding surface. Also welded a 1/4" x 1 1/2" plate on the underside to span the seam as well.  Will be replacing the old front crossmember with a 2" x 4" x 3/16" rect tube and will tie into the frame sections with gussets. Attached Images
Reply:That looks way too cold to me...[Account Abandoned 8/8/16 Please Do Not Attempt Contact Or Expect A Reply]. See you on YouTube! -ChuckE2009
Reply:Originally Posted by LanseThat looks way too cold to me...
Reply:get the thing put back together, go drive it hard somewhere. Leave the family at home. Come back and very carefully inspect everything you did. Ive seen what is being called a bad weld hold a lot, for a long time. Test it. Find out.The welds on your fish plate do look cold, and the bead is irregular. little 110v wire feeders are good for welding handrail returns, and thats about it. Ive had a wire feeder and a Lincoln AC 225 in my garage for a while. For this project, I would have used the stick welder. I has enough oomph to handle this sized weld. Keep practicing, keep learning. A weldor on my job said just this friday "Been doing this almost 40 years, still learning things".Weldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:X2 on the stick machine. The only other tool you may have to aid the little wire feeder is a torch to preheat the joint first. Clear out everything that will burn and put that joint under some fire until it reaches 150 degrees or more. Check it with an infrared thermometer gun or temp-stick. Try that on some scrap and take a picture. I would love to see a side by side comparison. City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWIt's hard to tell from that pict, but I'd agree based on the machine, the material used and what little I can see. Better close up picts would help greatly, especially any of the overhead welds. It's possible the welds are just very inconsistant, but I usually find that those who have that sort of issue have other problems like cold welds and poor penetration in class.
Reply:Ended up replacing three bad frame sections (front and rear driver's side and rear passenger's side) along with fabbing up a new bumper and front and rear crossmember.  Don't really feel like defending my inferior work so here's some photos of me beating on the old girl to prove it held up... Attached Images
Reply:now lets see some pictures after two years of "beating on it" then we'll talk. rarely does a weld fail first time out. there is a reason companies do fatigue testing, repetitive cycle testing, etc.I haven't torn into jeep frames, but I find it hard to believe that they are boxed frames made from 4 plates.  More likely it's a formed C channel with a boxed in side. if it's not hydroformed tube. then flanges are welded onto that. I think you would have been better off, and had a lot less work, just to get a new complete frame. If it's a daily driver I'm disappointed that someone would risk other peoples lives on work that could be considered questionnable. I'm not saying what you did wasn't good work. I'm saying what you did was the wrong way of going about it. I appreciate you showing the pictures of the action shots and you obviously were not playing nice with those welds. but when you put together a frame that you already know has rust issue, through in a climate/enviroment that you know creates rust issues, and then through in welds made at the top of a machines ability you're putting lives at risk. I don't mind someone taking their own life into their hands but I'm highly offended by people who take other peoples lives into their hands without the other people even knowing the risk.Also, are you going to keep this jeep until its scrap? if not, are you going to disclose the repairs made, and how those repairs were performed? how about letting them know that these were your first truely structural projects with a 110v welder?There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:I repaired a whole rear section of a YJ frame and used 2x3 3/16" tubing welded with a 140 amp lincoln welder held up fine with some off roading and mostly daily driving for over 3 years,  got rid of it though tired of fighting with the on going rust/rot issues it was a never ending battle I repaired the same section of frame you did by the steering box a year before I got rid of it
Reply:Nice FAB job. im a jeep owner myself and know how stubbern thees things can be. this is not particulay a project i would take on cause of the extensive work involved and the catastrophe of what could happen if the weld failed going 60 MPH on the highway. it wouldent stop me from wheelen with u tho. and because its in an open spot u can keep up on it checking for stress cracks.(and if that happens its nothign but grinding, preheating and re-welding) but overall...NICE WORK BRO!!! and NICE JEEP!!!!
Reply:nice fab work but listen to these guys the welds on the fish plate do look cold get some fluxcore wire , run straight co2 with your mig wire or a stick machine and redo the welds for your own safetyLincoln Power Arc 4000 Thermal Arc Fabricator 252 iThermal arc 186Thermal Arc 26 tigTweeko 200 amp spool gunHobart AirForce 400WP-17V-12R
Reply:Welding Web rule # 1, don't ever post a vehicle structure related project, you WILL die in a firey crash, and you WILL have been warned Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:Yup ^.  If it isn't a welder cart it will most defiantly fail!
Reply:Originally Posted by MikeGyverWelding Web rule # 1, don't ever post a vehicle structure related project, you WILL die in a firey crash, and you WILL have been warned
Reply:Thanks anyway, I don't want to ride in it.   We have numerous "pre runner" vehicles, Jeeps, Ford 150s, Toyota Tacomas etc... around Yuma which have been "altered" in frame and suspension at home using the finest 110v welders.  I don't want to ride in any of those either. What about the poor schmoe who buys this Jeep later, thinking it is sound and then... after numerous jumps and pops  by the weldor... two or three years down the road then the thing gives way.     I see Jeep frames on CL around here regularly... ? could be a solution.  I think you have exceeded safe work here. I have a small 110 v Lincoln 135, I love it, i use to tack down projects for fit, and it does a good job for sheet metal. I roll out the bigger MIG for anything else. Your mock up skills are excellent.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Originally Posted by ExpatWelderMaybe I should post some of the frame repairs I have done to Haul trucks
Reply:Originally Posted by 1995moneypitGot the section on yesterday.  Welded a 3/16" thick fishplate on the outside and engine side of the frame.  Drilled some 5/8" holes on each side of the seam for some added welding surface. Also welded a 1/4" x 1 1/2" plate on the underside to span the seam as well.  Will be replacing the old front crossmember with a 2" x 4" x 3/16" rect tube and will tie into the frame sections with gussets.
Reply:lol!! I think it's great work.  It makes me laugh to see how you guys get bent out of shape when someone does some welding with a 110v.  I welded my roll bar in with a 110v lincoln mig, and it turned out just fine. In fact I even think I posted the question on this board and received a lot of yes you cans and a lot of I would NEVER EVER do that.. then I went and contacted a few people I know who started their chassis business with a 110v mig welder.. Not one of then said it couldn't be done, in fact I spoke to one guy who installed his own and actually had to use it when his car rolled. cage held up just fine. If it's done correctly, it can be done, does the 110v have it's limits? absolutely. but to bash the guy for using a 110v is ridiculous..www.thefusionsolution.comOriginally Posted by speedfreak87lol!! I think it's great work.  It makes me laugh to see how you guys get bent out of shape when someone does some welding with a 110v.  I welded my roll bar in with a 110v lincoln mig, and it turned out just fine. In fact I even think I posted the question on this board and received a lot of yes you cans and a lot of I would NEVER EVER do that.. then I went and contacted a few people I know who started their chassis business with a 110v mig welder.. Not one of then said it couldn't be done, in fact I spoke to one guy who installed his own and actually had to use it when his car rolled. cage held up just fine. If it's done correctly, it can be done, does the 110v have it's limits? absolutely. but to bash the guy for using a 110v is ridiculous..
Reply:my concern is no the machine, but the person weilding it. a project like this takes other peoples lives and puts them at risk. Not something a new welder should be doing.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammermy concern is no the machine, but the person weilding it. a project like this takes other peoples lives and puts them at risk. Not something a new welder should be doing.
Reply:Originally Posted by Swaggerwagonit's a superiority thing, some of these cats just can't be satisfied....it has to be done their way, with only their equipment, or it's all wrong....Jeeps frames are 1/8 inch thick steel, a 135 machine should have no problem whatsoever welding 1/8 inch steel...
Reply:yes, we all started out learning. but how many of us started out learning on something that could kill someone if it failed?and just because you burned through 2 spools (how big of a spool actually fits on that machine? 2 lbs?) doesn't mean you're burning good welds while doing it. I could hand my 9 yr old a couple of spools and say "hey, go weld until your through with these." would he have burned through 2 spools? yes. would he have learned to do good, full penetration, consistant welds on every weld? without instruction, I doubt it.Yes, his finished product looked great. Yes his fitment skills are impressive. And yes incouragement goes a long way. but incouragement is also a VERY dangerous thing. it causes people who don't know what they are doing to think they do. It causes stubburn prideful people to not ask for help. It causes dangerous situations not only to the person doing the work, but to the people who will be using the finished product. The thing with welding, you can grind off an ugly weld and have a smooth clean surface without cracks, pits, or holes. but you go even just .01" further with you grinding and the whole seem you just "welded" is bare. You can polish a turd, it was proven on mythbusters, using scientific process. and it's proven every day by failed welds that "looked" good after the crap was ground off.The people on this page that get upset about these things don't do so to be a$$holes. they do it to make sure that people don't get hurt. Personally, I don't want my wife and kids endangered by someone who overstepped their own boundries and did something that wasn't safe to do.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:http://www.weldreality.com/Bad%20Weld%20Trucks.htmok heres some big company auto welding issues, so you want tobe safe on the road...mabe the little guy in his garage does a better job...now you can start flaming the whole world about weldsOf all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:Looking really good.  Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:Originally Posted by speedfreak87I welded my roll bar in with a 110v Lincoln mig, and it turned out just fine. In fact I even think I posted the question on this board and received a lot of yes you cans and a lot of I would NEVER EVER do that.. then I went and contacted a few people I know who started their chassis business with a 110v mig welder.. Not one of then said it couldn't be done, in fact I spoke to one guy who installed his own and actually had to use it when his car rolled. cage held up just fine. If it's done correctly, it can be done, does the 110v have it's limits? absolutely. but to bash the guy for using a 110v is ridiculous..
Reply:Death by fiire!!!!!!!!Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWSo have you rolled your vehicle and checked to see if it works? Are you willing to bet literally your life that your welds will hold? I would think that if I told someone to weld up a cage or roll bar and said when you are done we are tossing you off this hill and see if you live,  and gave them the choice between a 110v machine and a 230v machine, not many would choose to go with the smaller one. Seems like many that support these sorts of projects are willing to bet others lives that they can make this work.
Reply:Rolling a car over doesn't totally test a cage. Its the end over end and walls that will actually test a cage.
Reply:good fab work, however the weld bead that you ground down is also reinforcement. I would have just left the bead there I think that a good looking bead looks much better than ground down smooth. have fun with the jeep but keep a close eye on things.
Reply:speed freak,It was my understanding that on track cars welds on a roll cage couldn't be ground down because the inspectors want to be able to see the weld. Please correct me if I'm wrong in this. This is to allow the inspectors to verify the quality of the welds prior to letting the car on the track. meaning that unsafe welds, and unsafe vehicles are not allowed to race. The OP ground down the majority of the welding he's posted. And the welds he has shown, though from a distance, appear cold, and inaddiquate for the function that they will be performing. In my expearience people that are proud of their welds, or are looking for help, show close ups of the weld. not an essentially finshed product with the welds ground off and the product painted. Throw on top of that the duty cycle of the machine, compaired to the length of the welds, you end up with two possible out comes. 1) the welder is pushed pasted it's duty cycle to finish the full pass in a single trigger pull. creating a drop in welder proformance and thus a drop in the quality of the weld. or 2) a sequence of short welds, which may look pretty, but don't penetrate properly because there isn't enough heat in the material to allow for proper fusion. Either way, the end result is bad welds. This may be fine for you in your racer, who know the risks involve. And even the other racers on the track with you, who know the risks involved. But anyone who takes inocent lives into their hands, who don't know the risks involved, is a pompous a$$ for thinking that they can do something that has been proven to be unsafe by science. Not just unsafe by people looking at pictures on a website.Last edited by ThorsHammer; 09-30-2011 at 11:52 AM.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:NHRA rules say NO grinding on roll cage welds. Don't know about other sanctioning bodies but would think they are the same.Millermatic 200Hobart Handler 120Victor O/A & Ramco BandsawLincoln 225 ACSnapOn AD HoodMiller XMT304/22AHypertherm Powermax 1650 G3Lincoln Idealarc DC600 w/Extreme 12 VSMiller Digital Elite "Joker"
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammerspeed freak,It was my understanding that on track cars welds on a roll cage couldn't be ground down because the inspectors want to be able to see the weld. Please correct me if I'm wrong in this. This is to allow the inspectors to verify the quality of the welds prior to letting the car on the track. meaning that unsafe welds, and unsafe vehicles are not allowed to race. The OP ground down the majority of the welding he's posted. And the welds he has shown, though from a distance, appear cold, and inaddiquate for the function that they will be performing. In my expearience people that are proud of their welds, or are looking for help, show close ups of the weld. not an essentially finshed product with the welds ground off and the product painted. Throw on top of that the duty cycle of the machine, compaired to the length of the welds, you end up with two possible out comes. 1) the welder is pushed pasted it's duty cycle to finish the full pass in a single trigger pull. creating a drop in welder proformance and thus a drop in the quality of the weld. or 2) a sequence of short welds, which may look pretty, but don't penetrate properly because there isn't enough heat in the material to allow for proper fusion. Either way, the end result is bad welds. This may be fine for you in your racer, who know the risks involve. And even the other racers on the track with you, who know the risks involved. But anyone who takes inocent lives into their hands, who don't know the risks involved, is a pompous a$$ for thinking that they can do something that has been proven to be unsafe by science. Not just unsafe by people looking at pictures on a website.
Reply:but my concern is not so much with the machine, but with the project, and the person doing the work. I've only just recently upgraded to the larger mig in my home shop. and I have welded on vehicles with a 110v welder before. but then again. It wasn't my 3rd, 4th, or 5th project. and it wasn't complete sections of the frame. let alone multiple sections.110v migs have limitations. they are not capable of what the bigger migs can do. it's that simple. and unless the WELDER has the experience needed to use the machine properly, and to it's best potential, than it's limitations are even greater.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammerbut my concern is not so much with the machine, but with the project, and the person doing the work. I've only just recently upgraded to the larger mig in my home shop. and I have welded on vehicles with a 110v welder before. but then again. It wasn't my 3rd, 4th, or 5th project. and it wasn't complete sections of the frame. let alone multiple sections.110v migs have limitations. they are not capable of what the bigger migs can do. it's that simple. and unless the WELDER has the experience needed to use the machine properly, and to it's best potential, than it's limitations are even greater.
Reply:Originally Posted by speedfreak87 but with a corner joint, he shouldn't have any issues getting it done the right way, correct?
Reply:Maybe the OP, if he's not scared away can enlighten us on it.www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:Just a question here speedfreak..Did you ever have your car inspected by a chassis shop or at a N.H.R.A. track?Just asking....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Because of the times I will be running, no, I don't need to get it inspected.www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:Originally Posted by assassin_workshow much did over lap it or push it in old frame or did you just but them together and called it good enough
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammerSure, if you make the assumption that the plates being joined were alligned properly. If for example the plates were set up with the outside corner of 1 edge lined up with the inside corner of the other plate creating L instead of |_ than the weld may not penetrate properly. However, due to the minimal expearience of the "weldor". We cannot just jump to that conclusion. Also if the weld surfaces are not properly prepped (yes I know they are cut edges, but that doesn't mean the inside and outside faces of each plate couldn't contaminate the weld especially with that thickness of metal) properly by removing any mill scale, rust, oils, paint, etc. than again, the weld may not be a perfect weld. Something that is essential for anything being used on public roads. Or around inocent bistanders.
Reply:Originally Posted by 1995moneypit  Prior to placing any welds, I hit all surfaces with a wire brush on a grinder to remove any crud.  I try and make the metal "shiny" prior to laying any welds.
Reply:Those pics are just scary. Im not regretting leaving Michigan right now...[Account Abandoned 8/8/16 Please Do Not Attempt Contact Or Expect A Reply]. See you on YouTube! -ChuckE2009