Golf & an Entrepeneur....

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Hey guys,VERY interesting day. These days are a surprise for some of we 'ol timers & it does lift my thoughts that "some" of todays' youngsters show promise.I spotted a listing on C/L last evening for some TIG welding that was needed & a phone#. I called, got an answering machine, & left a message. Got a phone call about a half-hour later & queried as to specifications that was required. The fellow, Drew, explained what he needed & asked me about my experience, equipment, & approx. time frame of my work schedule. He said he would like to meet me this morning at my shop & would bring the prototypes he wanted done. Had a customer in the shop when he arrived & after the customer left, we intro'd. & he laid out on the welding table his projects. He explained in detail his requirements, asked me a rough price for welding & fitting if necessary, & maybe if I could modify if necessary as these are prototypes to determine final established specs.. I explained that since these would be production pieces, I would be willing to design a jig or jigs to weld the parts that would provide repetitive consistency & increase output that would be quite cost-effective for him. Now, he liked that!!!After an hour, we both really felt comfortable with the initiation of what looks like a great deal for each of us. The work is simple, easy to jig for, production would be no issue at all, & any mods could be implemented with ease. He was very receptive of my suggestions & improvements that may benefit his operation. I told him I could have the first set of prototypes ready by next week & he was pleased as some of his other material requirements from other vendors was several weeks to several months. He had a contract with a machine shop to CNC the heads & stems & the prototypes are CS & SS. I told him I would call him when they were ready.OK.....for all you youngsters.....the gist of this brief encounter that impressed this 'ol dog was the fact this youngster is 20-21yrs young. Found a love of golf that he felt he could contribute something to better the game....for some, not all. Since I don't golf, I don't know anything about it, other than for those who play, it is a passion & an obsession. I can relate as I am an RC airplane enthusiest & hard-core biker, so I do understand the passion. He decided to do a lot of research on the manufacturers & custom makers of golf clubs & found his niche & design that looked to be promising. He made the first (4) by hand, tested them, loaned them out for trials, & logged the input he received. These are the resultant pieces that he is starting with & will expand his designs gradually. He has started his own business now. This youngster made an impression with me that he WILL succeed.....he has the gusto of youth & the sense to know that golf is not going anywhere but forward. He knows that no matter how bad the economy is, how much most are trying to cut back, no one will give up their love of their hobbies/sports, go out to eat, & spend for any new gadget to hit the market. He's a smart young fellow..... I like him. I sure hope maybe, just maybe, ONE youngster who comes here finds some value with this thread & just thinks about maybe doing the same by learning, doing their homework, & takes a chance starting their own business.....no matter what.Ok.....here's the pics of the prototypes......Denny Attached ImagesComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Denny,Not trying to put you out of business, but this ultimately looks like a good part for investment casting.  Any reason why he's fabricating them?Dynasty 300DXSmith He/Ar gas mixerMM350PHobart Handler 120Smith LW7, MW5, AW1A
Reply:Hey 4sfed,We talked about castings & he indicated since designs of each may change, the investment into casting dies would be extremely unwise since they start at +$60K for a single cavity & much more for multiple cavities. I know our casting dies where I worked were over $200K when I started in '99.... have no idea what they would cost today. He is getting a good price for the CNC work as the initial programming was quite reasonable & only a slight mod to the CNC programming data will change the finish configuration if he needs it. He's sharp with his designs so he is quite aware of cost increases/changes to produce the exact product he wants. He did say that if his product is successful, he will look at every option available. Smart young fellow.....DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Originally Posted by 4sfedDenny,Not trying to put you out of business, but this ultimately looks like a good part for investment casting.  Any reason why he's fabricating them?
Reply:Respectfully, he's been talking to the wrong people.  I built the die for these parts in less than 40 hours (including design) and had 50 of each cast in 304 SS for $1044 total.   These are header flanges with a 1-1/2 I.D.  I really don't know any other method that would be less expensive.  For low volume . . . up to 100 parts . . . you can make an epoxy die by waxing the prototype and casting the epoxy around it in a chase.  I've made reproduction auto trim that way on several occasions.  JimDynasty 300DXSmith He/Ar gas mixerMM350PHobart Handler 120Smith LW7, MW5, AW1A
Reply:Originally Posted by 4sfedRespectfully, he's been talking to the wrong people.  I built the die for these parts in less than 40 hours (including design) and had 50 of each cast in 304 SS for $1044 total.   These are header flanges with a 1-1/2 I.D.  I really don't know any other method that would be less expensive.  For low volume . . . up to 100 parts . . . you can make an epoxy die by waxing the prototype and casting the epoxy around it in a chase.  I've made reproduction auto trim that way on several occasions.  Jim
Reply:I'm a golfer, too.  While those putter heads look nice, that is going to be an awfully tough way to make any money ( for him, not necessarily you ).   A lot of people buy a lot of putters, but they almost all either buy a) whatever Golfsmith has on the shelf or b) custom putters from famous builders ( Camerons, mainly, but also Machines, Bettinardis, TP Mills and a half-dozen others ).  They pay through the nose for famous names, even though there's nothing different about them.  They can be had for a song on eBay unless they're really rare or Camerons.   That said, it's pretty cool that he's making his own heads.  That's one of my projects someday.__David Hillman
Reply:Originally Posted by papaharley03As a golfer, I can tell you that cast club heads can't be bent to custom fit, whereas forged or machined ones can. If he is going for a niche market, he will want to have a design that can be custom fit to the individual.Papa
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWInteresting. Have any more info on this or links? I  don't have a need right now, but I have had any number of occasions in the past where this might have been a viable option.
Reply:I was more interested in the info on how the dies were constructed. I've poured a lot of molds using urethane or silicone and so on over the years and did a small bit of sand casting back in shop class. I know the same material I use for the urethane molds is used to make molds for lost wax castings for foundry work. I've thought about that fact several times when I've had multiple parts to make. Always looking for a better mouse trap or something I can adapt to other uses..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:The dies are constructed more like a sand mold . . . you have to pick a parting line(s) so the wax can be removed from the mold.  A 1° draft is enough. On short pulls, you can get away with even less.  I use an aluminum-filled epoxy designed for making patterns for sand casting.  Typically, the halves of the wax mold are bolted together with 3/8 SHCS . . . I put a threaded insert in the epoxy for durability.You can also buy a self-adhesive sheet wax in various thicknesses from the foundry suppliers.  Applying a layer of wax on the prototype before casting the mold, can help compensate for the shrinkage encountered in the casting process. Jim
Reply:i'll agree with david hillman..i see nothing special about the prototypes, they appear to be (poor) copies of existing designs..and putters are funny..gary player and arnold palmer were in a pro shop  somewhere, before a round of golf..and gary was waggling a used $5 putter in a barrel with others.lets go says arnie. after the round gary comes back and tries it again. he went to buy it and the pro said it was $100.  Its marked $5 said gary. That was before it was tried out by gary player, said the pro.player bought that putter used it for years and won with it..but best of luck to this young man and his fabricator..
Reply:A good share of Scott Cameron's money comes from one offs'. I don't know if he does lost wax and finishes the features or fabrications & what not. But they are as individual as a hand crafted cue stick and are not in the popular price section at Walley world.Matt
Reply:Originally Posted by 4sfedGood point about a custom fit, but the claim that cast club heads can't be bent didn't seem right . . . so I put a flange in the hydraulic press.  Sorry for the poor cell phone photos, but I think they show that castings don't have to be brittle.Jim
Reply:clubs also have to be pga approved before they can be used in any kind of tournaments, even the little local tournaments.tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:Originally Posted by papaharley03Perhaps it's marketing speak, but I was inclined to believe the selling point because I have tried bending cast iron objects in my life with the result usually being a broken object.
Reply:Well it is good you are getting a bit of business. But I too am a bit wary that he offers anything wildly new out the box. You really can't tell with something like a putter. So many very high tech others in the field that can talk all the right babble. He got a big hill to climb. Once at a certain level of fab, the differences between putters is more techno babble. Style, method and the player are more important, the Gods and luck hopefully on your side always.A putter made with a stick and railroad spike will be wonderful for the right guy. I'm a golfer, haven't played in a long time tho. Such a mental game, do have to have the right skills and be able to repeat, repeat, repeat. Lots of theories about what works, the better guys have such mental control. Experience and super emotional control is probably more the key that anything in terms of hardware. Provided the hardware is reasonable.The industry hype is a particular piece of hardware will improve your game. Naw, it can but is so offset by the other major factors. A lot of it is salemanship and BS after you get to a particular quality level. For the extremely good players that can actually implement the theory in a cause / effect relationship, getting something that is super tuned to their style might help at the very margins. For the Joe Average, it is more about looking good, scoring points in the locker room and having something else to blame. For the duffers it is really about being able to play enough, that is the one big factor. You need to use it or lose it. Very easy to be rusty.Pat the kid on the back and tell him, he is doing great. Remember it is the suppliers / supply chain that actually make the money.
Reply:I talked to that guy, too. But we quickly came to the conclusion that me being in Bridgeville, and him on the other side of the city, it just wouldn't be cost effective for him. Yorkiepap, if you don't mind, PM me your number, and a good time to call, I'd like to bull**** with another board member that's local.Bill
Reply:Thanks for the post, I myself am only 22 and I enjoy seeing stuff like this as I have some prototype alum water toys like rafts with diving boards ect. and so far my family and friends love them, so I have been thinking about opening up another LLC for that to make a nice side income for me! Good luck to you and the youngster!!
Reply:I usually play a buck a yardEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by papaharley03Perhaps it's marketing speak, but I was inclined to believe the selling point because I have tried bending cast iron objects in my life with the result usually being a broken object.So I can see you bent that flange but... how would you rate its durability to repeated impact after bending it like that?I am only asking in order to learn something.Papa
Reply:Originally Posted by 4sfedThe exceptions are the metal "woods".  I believe they are all castings.  The good irons are probably forged.
Reply:there are plenty of ways to make a casting and plenty of variable once you pick a method.same Iron piece left in a sand mold for 1hr vs. a couple of minutes will be completely different pieces. then you can do different mixes and even heat treating. Not every casting is a cheap production automotive casting.