MIG Silicon Bronze?

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I brought a small roll of .8mm Silicon Bronze the other day.Got to set it up today but only go a couple of minutes to play with it.Run a few beads on some 5mm mild steel plate and adjusted amps from about 100 to 150 / 16 to 20v but it did not seem to wet out well like Silicon Bronze TIG.Using Argon/CO2/O2 90/8/2 mix.  Manufacurer rates wire from 65-150amp 15-20vI would like to use it on thin sheet like i do with SB TIG.Will give it a try on some panel steel in the next couple of days and post back.Has anyone used Silicon Bronze MIG on auto panel repairs and how have you found it?Last edited by LarryO; 01-24-2010 at 06:05 AM.
Reply:Hey LarryO,Just wanted to query your reasons for wanting to use SilBro wire to do auto panels. I keep a 4oz coil of .045 to do some very small or thin repairs on brass/bronze & some cast iron & I rely on O/A w/flux for superb results. I find it to be quite handy for those really odd/seldom-used applications.Since I do 4-6 classic car restorations/yr, I am very experienced with auto panels & associated headaches. I use the tried/true method of MIG, .023/S-6, & C25 for optimum results. If one of your concerns is the rust-resistant characteristic of sil/bro that would seem to be appealing, I could understand, although no matter what weld filler is used, the ever-threatening rust process will still affect the surrounding metal. I find those resto's I have done were with customers who maintained their cars in garages, covered, & avoid all inclement weather engagements.Ok, next suggestion would be to just use straight C25 as the CO2 will allow for better wetting & the elimination of O2 would reduce heat & avoid burnthru. I'm sure you will insure a well-prepped & clean/bare weld joint/seam. If you do try it, please post some pics of your results with varying the weld parameters. Interesting....DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:I have seen MIG used with Silicon Bronze to repair bronze sculptures.  I am pretty sure that they recommend pure argon for Bronze.[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65R6tXEdbw0[/ame]If you are welding steel, not sure why you would use bronze wire rather than steel wire.RichardSculptures in copper and other metalshttp://www.fergusonsculpture.comSyncrowave 200 Millermatic 211Readywelder spoolgunHypertherm 600 plasma cutterThermal Arc GMS300 Victor OA torchHomemade Blacksmith propane forge
Reply:Originally Posted by rafergusonI have seen MIG used with Silicon Bronze to repair bronze sculptures.  I am pretty sure that they recommend pure argon for Bronze.If you are welding steel, not sure why you would use bronze wire rather than steel wire.Richard
Reply:Hey guys,Another good day to learn as goes the saying: "A day is wasted unless you learn one new thing." Since I've never used SilBro MIG wire, & looking at Covell's site, I have to get a roll to try. I stand corrected with the proper shielding gas. I'll have to do a bit more homework regarding the shear strength & overall characteristics of SilBro to enlighten myself. Good post.....DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabThat is correct, pure Argon for Bronze, MIG or TIG.Silicon Bronze takes less heat input and shrinks less so it works great for welding panels and since Silicon Bronze is Copper and Tin, paints, fillers, and powdercoats adhere very well.Here is a great article on Silicon Bronze written by Ron Covell.http://metalshapers.org/101/covell/c...ilbronze.shtml
Reply:Originally Posted by yorkiepapHey LarryO,Just wanted to query your reasons for wanting to use SilBro wire to do auto panels. I keep a 4oz coil of .045 to do some very small or thin repairs on brass/bronze & some cast iron & I rely on O/A w/flux for superb results. I find it to be quite handy for those really odd/seldom-used applications.Since I do 4-6 classic car restorations/yr, I am very experienced with auto panels & associated headaches. I use the tried/true method of MIG, .023/S-6, & C25 for optimum results. If one of your concerns is the rust-resistant characteristic of sil/bro that would seem to be appealing, I could understand, although no matter what weld filler is used, the ever-threatening rust process will still affect the surrounding metal. I find those resto's I have done were with customers who maintained their cars in garages, covered, & avoid all inclement weather engagements.Ok, next suggestion would be to just use straight C25 as the CO2 will allow for better wetting & the elimination of O2 would reduce heat & avoid burnthru. I'm sure you will insure a well-prepped & clean/bare weld joint/seam. If you do try it, please post some pics of your results with varying the weld parameters. Interesting....Denny
Reply:I started out in an ornamental sheet metal shop. Did everything from aluminum, bronze, brass, cooper, stainless as well as mild steel. Straight argon for all copper based alloys, whether mig or tig up to 3/8 then started using argon / helium mixes, but that was rare since it was an ornamental sheet metal job shop.
Reply:After reading that artical at Metalshapers by Ron Covell, i'll give Pulse Mig a try also in the test.
Reply:Very quick test.  Didnt have a lot of time.  Will do a proper test soon but it just got the better of me to have it sitting there and no weld action.Straight MIG to tack and the test i did on pulse.  I will do a test with straight MIG.Didnt have a lot of time to clean but its fairly clean.Metal is from a old door skin.  Thickness was 1mm but after agressive cleaning i'd bet its about .9mm. Attached Images
Reply:Had the pulse setting on the lowest it would go.Played with arc length with the 3 short passes i did.  The pulse helped it wet in better and the short test i did last night without it.Not the prettiest, but must see good and bad.No cool down time or cooling with compressed air, etc.  As i said, it was quick.I can definitely see myself using more of this on panel repairs.  I did notice while tacking and welding that it did have very little pull on the metal.  All the better to finish.More soon......................... Attached Images
Reply:Hi Larryo. Just couldnt resist adding my experience on here. I welded galvanized sheet metal for a year or so with everdure bronze. I believe that is silicone bronze. Looks alot like your pics only after welding miles of it it seemed to go on a lot easier than yours. We didnt use the mig process so I cant help you there but we just used a DC welder I believe straight polarity. Sharpened a stick of 1/4 in. carbon and clamped it in the stinger. Used a stick of everdure and placed it on the spot to weld and touched the end of the carbon to it. It starts a small flame and you weld like tig. I know this works well and I think it will do well in your case. Hope you arent to stuck on them mig welders to give it a shot. I said it welds like tig but I guess you could do better calling it brazing but goes on fast and not as much distortion. I know that is good when it comes to sheet metal. Most of my welds were on about 26 gauge with a but weld.  I was welding 6ft. diameter elbows for duct work in  skyscrapers in Texas. Now I am snowed in in Minnesota. Nasty out there right now. Hope that helps. Harold
Reply:I'm trying to set up the SB on MIG and i have a bit to do and didn't want to do it all in TIG.Mose of the auto body repair places around here have a dedicated SB MIG machine for non structural repairs.Using a sharpened carbon in a stinger is a unusual way of brazing.Ive only had about 1min torch time with this wire so soon as i get to give it a proper go and not in a rush, ill tune it in.
Reply:As Welderskelter said, Everdure, silicon/bronze is put down with arc gouging rod. It's common in the mechanical businesses around here. I've watched guys doing it and they can lay it down faster than mig by a bunch. A shop down the road from my old shop used it on auto bodies a lot. I was constantly amazed by the speed they could put it down.
Reply:Well, thank you for the backup. Havent heard of anybody that has done this before.  Everybody thinks I am just crazy. Ha. Maybe they are right I know when the younger guys get out of school you usually cant talk to them about anything cept mig. I dont even have one of them and get along quite well. If Larryo tries this I think he would like it. Harold
Reply:Im not hung up on MIG, just trying to make this $170 roll of wire work for me.I do have TIG, OA, MMA welders as well.When sorted i will give the carbon idea a go.  Will pic up some carbon next time i go to weld shop and post results in a different thread.
Reply:Please do Larryo. I think we always used the everdure bronze. I was told that it was silicone bronze on here. I used 3 ft. sticks about 1/8 or 3/32  not sure. 1/4 in carbon sharpened like a pencil  or maybe not quite that angle. This has been 32 years ago. If you have trouble let me know I will get some and see if I remember.
Reply:I've got the Silicon Bronze rods in 2.4mm.  Maybe a little thick for what im trying to do.  What do ya think?  Might try to get some in 1.6mm.I'll try to get to the welding shop ( got no carbons )by Friday so i can at least have a quick go on the weekend.
Reply:National geographic has a great show called ultimate factories and they did a feature on bently cars and their was some great footage on silicon bronze mig on the body panals of the cars
Reply:Just wanted to say that I've been using Silicon Bronze (CuSi03) for some time now in the car industry. We use it to braze together the car skin to the chassis with great results.We MIG Braze manually and with robots. Just in case you need them, the machine parameters are 15.5 volts and 170 IPM's for welding on a 16 ga. This means around 75 Amps.In the picture someone uploaded in this forum we could see he had too many voltage, you have to lower it down to minimize spatter and to give the seam bead some body. If you're using a synergic machine, lower the trim parameter in order to get the same results.I also work for a major Industrial Gas company as a Tech. App's Engineer and as a CWI, so you must know you can use pure Argon, but if you want better results for your particular interests you can always use a C10, not a C25 (10% Carbon Dioxide on Argon = C10).If welding thicker materials you should listen to the guy that told you Ar-He Mixes, specifically the one called Helistar A25. If you use a Mix with more Helium your electric arc will be unstable, more dificult to calibrate the machine, meaning more spatter and black marks around your welds.Never let your base metal heat higher than 150 °F since your bead will start to look thicker.Any other questions you can post me back.Regards. Last edited by lfsoto; 04-03-2012 at 05:22 PM.
Reply:Sorry for stale thread resurrect, but I'd like to hear what size MIG wire people liked for auto body?I want to buy a roll of this wire and need to decide on .030/.035/.045  ThanksTomPS.  Might also mention 2 applications:  .049 (18 gauge) vintage cars and modern high carbon steel (~.030) cars.
Reply:.023 or .030 for auto body. Similar settings as for steel wire, but slightly lower voltage.JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:For doing floor board/rocker quick and sloppy rust repair (ill fitting pieces) would slightly heavier wire fill gaps better?  I know with oxyacetylene, I can really fill with a 1/8" rod and can't do anything with a 1/16"Also, I am a MIG novice.  Current experience is light structural and no sheet metal yet (!)  My forte is o-a auto body sheet metal with low distortion - I leaned how to preheat properly after about 100 hours of welding.
Reply:i bought silicon-bronze mig equipment for the ford assembly plants to replace gas brazing back in the late 60's . these were short welds (about 1/2") where the roof joined the a-pillars and the rear window qtr panel joint.also where the upper-back panel wrapped into the rear window opening and the deck lid opening.miller thunderbolt 250vlincoln square wave tig 175 prolincoln idealarc mig sp250everlast tig 210EXTeverlast power plasma 50chicago electric (hf) 130 tig/90 arcchicago electric 90 amp flux wire3 sets oxy/acet
Reply:Well there is mention of doing Pulsed MIG, so that would limit your choices if you want that option..Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250We have a mig setup at work with silicon bronze in it, strictly for rebuilding some bronze slide shoes for some equipment. It's in a different shop than I work in, and never paid it much mind but will make it point next time i'm there to go over it a little better and get some pics of the welds being produced. Obviousley one of my co workers is doing the rebuilds, and there's always a shopping cart full of rebuilt parts, but the welds look really slick, perfectly stacked dimes, really nice. I'll find out a little more next week.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Originally Posted by WelderskelterHi Larryo. Just couldnt resist adding my experience on here. I welded galvanized sheet metal for a year or so with everdure bronze. I believe that is silicone bronze. Looks alot like your pics only after welding miles of it it seemed to go on a lot easier than yours. We didnt use the mig process so I cant help you there but we just used a DC welder I believe straight polarity. Sharpened a stick of 1/4 in. carbon and clamped it in the stinger. Used a stick of everdure and placed it on the spot to weld and touched the end of the carbon to it. It starts a small flame and you weld like tig. I know this works well and I think it will do well in your case. Hope you arent to stuck on them mig welders to give it a shot. I said it welds like tig but I guess you could do better calling it brazing but goes on fast and not as much distortion. I know that is good when it comes to sheet metal. Most of my welds were on about 26 gauge with a but weld.  I was welding 6ft. diameter elbows for duct work in  skyscrapers in Texas. Now I am snowed in in Minnesota. Nasty out there right now. Hope that helps. Harold
Reply:I wonder if I can get away with C25?  I have a big tank of it and if I really need pure Ar, I'm going to have to swap out an O2 to get one.
Reply:I have heard of people using 75/25 for MIG brazing of steel with silicon bronze, but I have never tried it myself.JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:I was just trying some first welds with the C25 and didn't see anything really bad about it - but then I am not a MIG welder.I found C25 here:Autocraft Silicon Bronze TYPICAL ALL WELD METAL MECHANICAL PROPERTIES:Welding grade Argon:0.2% Proof Stress 170 MPaTensile Strength 380 MPaElongation (in 2 inches) 50%TYPICAL WIRE ANALYSIS:Fe: 0.25% Mn: 1.0% Si: 3.40%Sn: 0.90% Zn: 0.90% Cu: BalanceRECOMMENDED SHIELDING GAS:• Welding Grade Argon• Argon + 10-25% CO2• Argon + 0-3% O2• Helium + 25% ArTYPICAL WELD DEPOSIT HARDNESS WITH ARGON +10-15% CO2 :HRBThree Layers on Mild Steel 48COMPARABLE CIGWELD PRODUCTS:Comweld Silicon Bronze
Reply:Originally Posted by LarryOIm not hung up on MIG, just trying to make this $170 roll of wire work for me.
Reply:Wow, that is a good price.  I paid $25.80 @ weldingdepot.com for 2# and that was a lot cheaper than other places.Of course then there is shipping.I didn't even think of calling a local supply  shop.
Reply:Just got quoted $96.00 for a 10# spool at my local Norco, sounds like that price is fair!(zombie thread ressurection!)Motorboating...in the Cleavage of the Tetons
Reply:When brazing with a carbon rod do you dip the rod in flux like you do using a gas torch? I would assume it's the same, but never used a carbon rod that way. Maybe the carbon rod puts up a CO2 envelope? Seems you could weld with steel rod using an arc as well.
Reply:We Mig Silicon Bronze where I work. We use 80/20 sheilding gas and run it on regular Mig. Its never really a pretty weld. It doesn't melt the base metal, so its kind of like brazing. We use it on nonstructual joints on blower housings made from galvanized for a corrosion free joint.
Reply:Originally Posted by MoparfeverWhen brazing with a carbon rod do you dip the rod in flux like you do using a gas torch? I would assume it's the same, but never used a carbon rod that way. Maybe the carbon rod puts up a CO2 envelope? Seems you could weld with steel rod using an arc as well.
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11Are you talking about carbon arc torch brazing like way back when ?
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11HUH          Are you talking about carbon arc torch brazing like way back when ?Better get a cup of joe..for thou art confused